Mids/Albs

[Javai]

The kind of attitude that seems to have you (and others like you) frothing at the mouth to obsessively ridicule and belittle anyone you consider not to be part of your tiny elitist subcommunity with no further cause whatsoever. Why? Hard to say--probably a mix of too much socializing with like-minded individuals on IRC, a high personal ambition level to the game, and a certain intrinsic arrogance (being safe behind a computer screen), leading to a perceived superiority and the compulsive need to impose their own will on the general majority ("don't add!", "don't zerg!", "don't retake towers!").

This is so completely spot on. Shame its a bit too long for sig material

 

[Javai]

dunno if you mean AD , but i personally think we have become quite a friendly guild since laaken and katt has quit daoc!

No offense intended but I was recently moved to ask if AD had a personality transplant

 

[Brack]

ooor, its just fun =)

thing is, some people, like me, know exactly what kind of attitude they have, why they have it, and why they like it. i'm well aware of the ability to hurt people on a forum, hence i only flamebait/joke/stress the normal FH-warriors.

it also has to do with a bit of childish humour, i think. =-)

But its nasty not to say hello back :<

nazi

 

[Calo]

The kind of attitude that seems to have you (and others like you) frothing at the mouth to obsessively ridicule and belittle anyone you consider not to be part of your tiny elitist subcommunity with no further cause whatsoever. Why? Hard to say--probably a mix of too much socializing with like-minded individuals on IRC, a high personal ambition level to the game, and a certain intrinsic arrogance (being safe behind a computer screen), leading to a perceived superiority and the compulsive need to impose their own will on the general majority ("don't add!", "don't zerg!", "don't retake towers!").

It all boils down to this: everyone will become a casual player sooner or later in life, and a little humility and respect towards other players does not hurt. In fact, those people that never manage to make the transition to a casual playstyle are the ones we should pity, not the players who can combine a busy real life with DAoC.

Care to say all that in 1 sentence? would be good sig material

 

[Javai]

Care to say all that in 1 sentence? would be good sig material

What about 'Noone is l33t forever'.

 

[Baldrian]

The kind of attitude that seems to have you (and others like you) frothing at the mouth to obsessively ridicule and belittle anyone you consider not to be part of your tiny elitist subcommunity with no further cause whatsoever. Why? Hard to say--probably a mix of too much socializing with like-minded individuals on IRC, a high personal ambition level to the game, and a certain intrinsic arrogance (being safe behind a computer screen), leading to a perceived superiority and the compulsive need to impose their own will on the general majority ("don't add!", "don't zerg!", "don't retake towers!").

It all boils down to this: everyone will become a casual player sooner or later in life, and a little humility and respect towards other players does not hurt. In fact, those people that never manage to make the transition to a casual playstyle are the ones we should pity, not the players who can combine a busy real life with DAoC.

you rule

 

[stubbe]

It all boils down to this: everyone will become a casual player sooner or later in life, and a little humility and respect towards other players does not hurt. In fact, those people that never manage to make the transition to a casual playstyle are the ones we should pity, not the players who can combine a busy real life with DAoC.

There's a very big difference between being simply a casual player and a quote "alb RoG-noob". I would at the moment consider myself a casual player, got way too much in school and life in general to play as much as I used to. The difference is while I am a casual player, when I play I'm still part of a good group as an important piece of that puzzle. Being casual is no excuse for being a generally bad player. I wouldn't say I'm alot better now than I was after say rr6? I know that's not exactly your point. But what I'm saying is vintervargen, for all his flaws, can go down to playing 2 hours a week and still be a better player than 95% of the population for those 2 hours only. While others struggle for hours a day and never amass to anything more than a scout trying to leech rps from a bridge.

 

[Marc]

There's a very big difference between being simply a casual player and a quote "alb RoG-noob". I would at the moment consider myself a casual player, got way too much in school and life in general to play as much as I used to. The difference is while I am a casual player, when I play I'm still part of a good group as an important piece of that puzzle. Being casual is no excuse for being a generally bad player. I wouldn't say I'm alot better now than I was after say rr6? I know that's not exactly your point. But what I'm saying is vintervargen, for all his flaws, can go down to playing 2 hours a week and still be a better player than 95% of the population for those 2 hours only. While others struggle for hours a day and never amass to anything more than a scout trying to leech rps from a bridge.

Yet you belong to a guild full of competent players (NP) and you WERE a hardcore gamer. As is Vinters. Most of the casual players will never belong to guilds like yours and thus will probably never improve. But do you really really think they care? Just because people like Vinters aspire to be the best in a virtual world that doesnt really exist, doesnt mean that the other 99% want the same thing. The problem here is the attitude of these people. So what if a lot of casual players are not as good as say the vinters of DAoC. Why should that be a problem for the small brainless minority who get their kicks from belittling (sp) these people? If i play rugby and we beat a team who are pretty awful, do you think id go into their changing room after the game and say "ROFL omfg m8ers you guys are teh suck T_T". Wouldnt dream of it. People may not be as good as the likes of you at this game, but isnt the whole point of DAoC to have fun? There is nothing riding on the outcome of anything in this game is there?

 

[Javai]

There's a very big difference between being simply a casual player and a quote "alb RoG-noob". I would at the moment consider myself a casual player, got way too much in school and life in general to play as much as I used to. The difference is while I am a casual player, when I play I'm still part of a good group as an important piece of that puzzle. Being casual is no excuse for being a generally bad player. I wouldn't say I'm alot better now than I was after say rr6? I know that's not exactly your point. But what I'm saying is vintervargen, for all his flaws, can go down to playing 2 hours a week and still be a better player than 95% of the population for those 2 hours only. While others struggle for hours a day and never amass to anything more than a scout trying to leech rps from a bridge.

There's another issue there though, if you've always been a 'casual' player you will have less time to get items and RAs than those that have played more intensively and then slowed down. This doesn't necessarily mean they are worse players (though it might) nor does it mean, if they prefer to spend their time taking towers because that is more likely to be successful than trying to fight opted full groups, that they should be insulted for doing so.

Time spent playing rvr for most people improves how they play - you see more situations and learn more about your character you also, usually, become faster on that character as you get experience with it, the 'casual' player will have less of that but that doesn't mean they deserve the kind of abuse that gets posted on here and thrown at them in game by their 'leet' realm mates.

Similarly someone who has always been a casual player is much less likely to be able to find a spot in one of those opted fgs or be unable to put time into rolling the current fotm characters. None of this makes them 'worse' players, though of course it all serves to boost the egos of the 'leet' as it allows them to beat casual players more easily.

 

[Belomar]

There's a very big difference between being simply a casual player and a quote "alb RoG-noob". I would at the moment consider myself a casual player, got way too much in school and life in general to play as much as I used to. The difference is while I am a casual player, when I play I'm still part of a good group as an important piece of that puzzle. Being casual is no excuse for being a generally bad player. I wouldn't say I'm alot better now than I was after say rr6? I know that's not exactly your point. But what I'm saying is vintervargen, for all his flaws, can go down to playing 2 hours a week and still be a better player than 95% of the population for those 2 hours only. While others struggle for hours a day and never amass to anything more than a scout trying to leech rps from a bridge.

That's part of my point. In order to be the kind of "good casual player" you are talking about, you'd have had to have been a dedicated (or even hardcore) player at some point in your past. It takes time to farm the perfect template, to get enough RPs for the important RAs, and to find that good group in the first place. Not everyone has the luxury of investing that kind of time into the game, and people that do not should not have to put up with constantly being flamed, ridiculed and bullied by the people who do.

Look at it on a longer perspective. You may have had the possibility to be hardcore in DAoC at one point, and thus you have built up a foundation so that you can be casual and yet still achieve a lot within the game. Hey, I'm sort of in the same situation myself at the moment, having moved to a new server six months ago and invested loads of time into levelling, ToA, SCing and so on, and now having the opportunity to "only" RvR a few times a week. However, in ten years time, we will be playing a new game, and most likely (or hopefully) you will not have the time to be a hardcore player and build that initial foundation you need to succeed. I don't see you amassing much more than zerging or leeching on a bridge either, then.

I had the opportunity to listen to the one of the development directors at Electronic Arts (big game company/publisher) in Europe last year. He was talking about why competitive online games are still so unpopular compared to single-player games that you play on your own computer. As an example, he related to himself, being a late 30s executive working long hours to "put food on the table", and coming home late to spend some time with his wife and kids. In the evening, after bedtime, he would finally have some time for himself and thus sit down at his computer to play an hour or two. What would he then play? An online game where he would instantly be eradicated and humiliated (most likely followed by verbal abuse) by a 13-year old who has the time and energy to sit in front of ? Or a single-player game on his own computer, where he can achieve things in a non-competitive setting, pause at any point in time, avoid being harassed and insulted, and generally feel good about himself? That's a rhetorical question, by the way.

Finally, these points have been raised in earlier threads, and they're all contributing to why I feel so strongly towards people who exhibit the kind of uber l33t attitude vintervargen embodies, in essence playing the part of the 13-year old in the example above (in this case also against Bracken, who is neither a ROGed, nor noob). Again, I'm going to take the liberty of quoting myself from a rather good thread on this issue some ways back:

A casual player does not log on at a specific time and joins up with his buddies to do pre-arranged stuff. A casual player is often in a small guild with his friends, or in a large PvE guild. He does not arrange events and meetings on beforehand using IRC; in fact, he would be hard-pressed to say he ever used IRC. He does not have a fixed spot in an RvR group, and when he does RvR, he either does it in a random pickup group, or with his guildies/friends, and in both cases they most likely lack vital classes. He does not have a buffbot. He hasn't spent loads of time poring over game documentation and ToA tips, nor does he troll the forums a lot. In fact, he does not have the time to do these things. He is most likely stuck on ML3, simply due to the fact he always have to log early when the raid gets to the later encounters. He does not have 10+ plats, and most of the items he wants are beyond his reach. He does have the "easy" artifacts you can do solo or with a few friends, but when he turns up at the site of a desirable artifact, it is always camped. The one time he spent some of his rare in-game time camping an artifact mob, he was not able to get an FG together in time, and so someone else steamed in and took his artifact from under his nose. He zergs. He likes the thrill of RvR, and thinks his epic is the coolest-looking armor in-game. And yes, let's face it, he is all of you in a few years.

Makes more sense?

 

[Chronictank]

A casual player does not log on at a specific time and joins up with his buddies to do pre-arranged stuff.

Sums up every casual player
It is YOUR fault you dont organise events
it is YOUR GUILD's fault they cant get their act together
I work full time, go uni part time, have active social life but i organise things around my schedule
so that "like minded", people are in the same place at the same time.

Failing keeping it in the guild you can post here where there is a huge player base, or take it to an alliance

most casual gamers (bar very very few) simply cant be bothered/dont take the initiative to organise things, thats why you dont have the good equipment, thats why you dont get to the level where you can compete.
If you were to organise a grp say once a week to get artifacts for 8 people, once maybe twice a week for rvr then i garuntee you will enjoy the game a hell of alot more than spamming f8 /face 111111
"I cant do mls", is a rather pathetic excuse now that ml credit can be granted and be done in any order (bar ml10). it will take longer but there are more than enough mls going on to get credit in
But then theres the VERY small miniority who dont have the time because of strange schedules /wave obs, when there simply arent people online to do what they want.

I will never zerg as it bores me, i guess that means im not a casual gamer

 

[stubbe]

I don't see you amassing much more than zerging or leeching on a bridge either, then.

Well I guess that's the greater disparity between me and generally casual players. I would never play a game if I though I'd be camping a bridge with my scout/hunter/ranger. I'm too much of a competative player to ever play a game "halfway" meaning even if I'm on my way "up" I wouldn't keep playing if I didn't think that I some day could be #1.

The whole point of RVR is to compete against other players, if you're not aiming to get anywhere except leeching the occasional rp from a bridge then I'd agree with your example, you probably should be playing single player rpgs. My point being that if you're not out to compete, improve and evolve, why play in a competative enviroment?

I understand what you're saying about what a casual player is about when sitting down to play. It just seems so counterproductive to play an online-game if you have no aspirations, nor possibility to get good at it and just act as fodder for the good players. I'd pick a single player game.

PS. I guess it's beyond the point that if I decided to play another game in 10 years time I'd most probably still play it with my guild (NP) giving me a good edge from the beginning, since that once again would require me to have player hardcore at some point in my life
DS.

 

[Javai]

Sums up every casual player
It is YOUR fault you dont organise events
it is YOUR GUILD's fault they cant get their act together
I work full time, go uni part time, have active social life but i organise things around my schedule
so that "like minded", people are in the same place at the same time.

Way to miss the point - many casual players can't say we'll do MLX at 7pm on Friday because they don't know exactly when they'll be free, when their family might pop round unexpectedly, when a friend might phone to go out for a drink.

You obviously prioritise gaming as part of your social life, so do I so no problem with that, but not everyone can or wants to and they are just as entitled to play and enjoy the game without the kind of daily abuse that is spouted on here.

 

[Javai]

The whole point of RVR is to compete against other players, if you're not aiming to get anywhere except leeching the occasional rp from a bridge then I'd agree with your example, you probably should be playing single player rpgs. My point being that if you're not out to compete, improve and evolve, why play in a competative enviroment?

For many it is not the competitive part of the environment they play for but rather the social element. The desire to play something with friends rather than as a single player. THAT is what attracts causal gamers to on-line games. RvR is a part of the gaming environment that is featured on the box, as it were, that people want to enjoy but not necessarily be number one.

It's like saying you should only play in a Sunday football league if you one day aspire to be in Premiership.

 

[Vodkafairy]

most of those very casualgamers only camp the chokepoints and don't really move away from there - unless they join some kind of siege action. avoiding them is really easy, and going for a try to farm the bridge some can be quite fun really

it often makes me laugh when you see a carpet of [insert bridge campers of any realm] run down the bridge walking over everything, getting frustrated about that is really silly since you know they'll always be there

dunno about others, but personally i really have no problems with those kind of players at all since they're so easy to avoid. the annoying ones are those that are fully toa'd and play quite a lot, but only only to roam around and add - those you cannot avoid and are very frustrating. some examples - khazoom, lokomotiv, arumos, motroconnu, and many hibs im sure, etc.. all of those people will only find 8v8 by accident, but normally they all look for easy rps farm/leech.

javais gg steamrolled us once after we were about 3/4rd way through in a fight against asylum, but that was one of the less frustrating things aswell. i like how that guild always makes a grp in the evening and just runs around making plans to get some action in the frontier etc, pretty sure they dont roam with the purpose to add. hence it's not really a problem - even tho they should have came a minute later so we could have finished the fight

and before you mention it, yeah we moved all the omgwtfelitist gg's to the other side of the river away from zerg action to avoid exactely that

edit- and /agree with javais post just over mine, i played like that for quite a while on Gorre aswell and its really nice tbh. at primetime we play to win win win, just because the 8v8 is really really challenging and fun at that time. but at all other times, just having fun whatever we're doing is the way to go.. still means the game is more fun being friendly to outnumbered realm enemies or people alrdy fighting tho!

 

[Chronictank]

Way to miss the point - many casual players can't say we'll do MLX at 7pm on Friday because they don't know exactly when they'll be free, when their family might pop round unexpectedly, when a friend might phone to go out for a drink.

You obviously prioritise gaming as part of your social life, so do I so no problem with that, but not everyone can or wants to and they are just as entitled to play and enjoy the game without the kind of daily abuse that is spouted on here.

then they should seriously consider a different game/stick to pve since pvp is about seeing how well you perform against other people not overwhelming the enermy who obviously didnt have a chance in hell of winning. (this is not keep takes this is running a 50 man grp to take out the poor sod who stealthed too late

i dont see the difficlulty in saying no now and again to going out for a drink
there are very few in the position where they "cant" commit to certain times,
as i said previously.
If you planned to go out with friends/on holiday with the family your not gona say sorry friend just called im going down the pub
And family doesnt pop round unexpectantly everyday now do they?

Its all about time management is the point im making, people can easily be at a standard to rvr at a competant lvl if they stp making excuses and get on with it. If you want something you do what you have to, to get it

but then if you genuinley like playing in zergs than thats your preferance, its nothing to do with being a casual gamer.

 

[Javai]

javais gg steamrolled us once after we were about 3/4rd way through in a fight against asylum, but that was one of the less frustrating things aswell. i like how that guild always makes a grp in the evening and just runs around making plans to get some action in the frontier etc, pretty sure they dont roam with the purpose to add. hence it's not really a problem - even tho they should have came a minute later so we could have finished the fight

Just for the record, I don't believe in fg vs fg rvr (I like epic battles, I like sieges, that's my preference. And I don't run opted fgs but rather whoever from guild/alliance wants to come out and play) but we don't roam with the express aim of adding, if we see a fight we won't sit back and wonder who's gonna win but we also don't roam areas where fg vs fg action is happening unless its close to the sieges etc we are taking part in. (It would be very rare to find us Between DC and Bolg when there was iRvR except when we only had half a group to play with).

One thing guaranteed to make me 'add' is any Alb in the vicinity /y DON'T ADD FFS' or anything similar

Last night was a pretty typical night for us, get fg up save a few towers at Hurb, get rams encourage Alb zerg to Beno 4 take that then move to retake Berks. After that we had a look for an unclaimed tower or two, found one at Crim and had a go at that. Lost to superior Hib numbers, bedtime for half the group. Run about HW with 3 people, get some abuse from some 'leet' groups. Die to some enemy 'leet' groups. Go to bed.

 

[Belomar]

then they should seriously consider a different game/stick to pve since pvp is about seeing how well you perform against other people not overwhelming the enermy who obviously didnt have a chance in hell of winning.

Again missing the point. Why cannot you just accept that there are people who have a totally different outlook on the game than you and stop trying to impose your will on them? Why should people not be allowed to group up with their friends and guildies (2-3 FGs of them maybe, or perhaps just 2-3 individuals) and then go out into RvR with no other motive than to feel the thrilll of going up against enemy players (no matter the outcome)? Why should they care if they're running in a zerg or adding on a FG fight? It's all about having fun, and who are you to say what is fun and what is not for them? Like VF says, there are ways to avoid the zergs, and in this matter, the hardcore players have all the advantages to do so with their superior knowledge of the game (and out-of-game means of communication, such as IRC).

Like Javai says, there are people who play soccer in their spare time for no other reason than to have fun with their friends (perhaps they never even go to practice and just play matches)--according to your reasoning, they should be aspiring to the top league or get the hell out of the kitchen (="stick to PvE"). Who are you to say these things anyway? I'm quite amazed at your ignorance, to be honest.

 

[Marc]

I went playing cricket with my mate, his 2 boys and a few other little kids the other night.. OH NO! How dare I!!! If im not aspiring to be the next Ian Botham what was the point of me going?

 

[Javai]

then they should seriously consider a different game/stick to pve since pvp is about seeing how well you perform against other people not overwhelming the enermy who obviously didnt have a chance in hell of winning. (this is not keep takes this is running a 50 man grp to take out the poor sod who stealthed too late

Seriously - noone runs large groups to kill solo stealthers, you'll mostly find Albs in large numbers in two situations. Keep defense/take or if there are large numbers of Mids or Hibs in an area. Noone forms up at CS and says I know lets make 6fgs and run about doing nothing in particular

i dont see the difficlulty in saying no now and again to going out for a drink
there are very few in the position where they "cant" commit to certain times,
as i said previously.
If you planned to go out with friends/on holiday with the family your not gona say sorry friend just called im going down the pub
And family doesnt pop round unexpectantly everyday now do they?

But that's my point, many people see playing a game as last thing to do on a list of other things, there is no reason why they should prioritise it and no reason why they shouldn't go out to rvr and have some fun on the few occasions they choose to log in.

but then if you genuinley like playing in zergs than thats your preferance, its nothing to do with being a casual gamer.

You are right on that I do like playing in large scale battles and I'm not a casual gamer, at least not in terms of hours played But then that's what DaoC offers that other games don't, personally if I wanted the kind of fg vs fg action many seem to want I'd be playing Guild Wars

 

[Javai]

I went playing cricket with my mate, his 2 boys and a few other little kids the other night.. OH NO! How dare I!!! If im not aspiring to be the next Ian Botham what was the point of me going?

I hope you checked all the kids had professional standard bats before you let them in your team!

 

[Vodkafairy]

but we don't roam with the express aim of adding, if we see a fight we won't sit back and wonder who's gonna win but we also don't roam areas where fg vs fg action is happening unless its close to the sieges etc we are taking part in. (It would be very rare to find us Between DC and Bolg when there was iRvR except when we only had half a group to play with).

thats why i didn't really mind, you did run into the area where fgfights were happening but it also happened to be the way from boldiam into hw i think.. it happens, /shrug

One thing guaranteed to make me 'add' is any Alb in the vicinity /y DON'T ADD FFS' or anything similar

saying such things never work anyways, pm'ing the leader of a group asking them in a friendly way if they want to prevent adding in respect to both the groups often works.. if it doesn't, well, too bad

Last night was a pretty typical night for us, get fg up save a few towers at Hurb, get rams encourage Alb zerg to Beno 4 take that then move to retake Berks. After that we had a look for an unclaimed tower or two, found one at Crim and had a go at that. Lost to superior Hib numbers, bedtime for half the group. Run about HW with 3 people, get some abuse from some 'leet' groups. Die to some enemy 'leet' groups. Go to bed.

didn't play yesterday but the day before was quite a nice example of my point when it comes to different styles in NF - evening started out being very zergy on the eastside of river and we could never really have a fight without adds from either side, then we contacted the fg's on irc and agreed to roam on the west side of river so we both had our area to play in. zerg on left side doing whatever they feel like, fg's having their fights on the west side. perfect solution for both to be happy and play their game? other than your group steamrolling us one time we never really had any problems there

 

[Marc]

I hope you checked all the kids had professional standard bats before you let them in your team!

We had tennis balls for balls and no bails. Oh no, we must be casual rog noobs

 

[The VV]

belomar is as usual taking forums too seriously. why dont you go visit some social institutions and try to do some real difference?

id like to have a real discussion with you about human behaviour, but it'll have to be on irc - or are you too casual to have it?

 

[Javai]

then we contacted the fg's on irc and agreed to roam on the west side of river so we both had our area to play in.

No offense intended here just curious. If you make that kind of contact why not arrange to do it in a more out of the way zone?

Or Emain or Odins to save the walk when all the keep sieges are in HW?

Not directed at you personally but a part of me suspects that it is because there isn't the steady flow of easy rps in between the fg vs fg if you go elsewhere.

 

[Javai]

We had tennis balls for balls and no bails. Oh no, we must be casual rog noobs

You'll be telling me next you only do it a couple of times and week and don't keep score

 

[Belomar]

belomar is as usual taking forums too seriously. why dont you go visit some social institutions and try to do some real difference?

Too seriously? No, I'm just bored at work. And I work in a different kind of institution, tyvm, and I do believe I am making a "real difference" in the field I am active.

id like to have a real discussion with you about human behaviour, but it'll have to be on irc - or are you too casual to have it?

Who says I'm casual? I'm merely a defender of casual players. I do use IRC and I do spend oodles of time in-game and I do run in an opted and fixed group, etc, etc. I do try to go without the attitude that goes with it, however. (My IRC nick on QuakeNet is Baldgrim.)

 

[The VV]

Too seriously? No, I'm just bored at work. And I work in a different kind of institution, tyvm, and I do believe I am making a "real difference" in the field I am active.

Who says I'm casual? I'm merely a defender of casual players. I do use IRC and I do spend oodles of time in-game and I do run in an opted and fixed group, etc, etc. I do try to go without the attitude that goes with it, however. (My IRC nick on QuakeNet is Baldgrim.)

so i defend the leet, and mock the casuals, while you defend the casuals and mock the leet. we are both bored at work it seems, but im the bad buy? that makes me a saaaaaaaaaaad () panda.

especially since the leet (apparently) are the biggest loosers IRL, and hence you should be the bad guy.

 

[Vodkafairy]

No offense intended here just curious. If you make that kind of contact why not arrange to do it in a more out of the way zone?

Or Emain or Odins to save the walk when all the keep sieges are in HW?

Not directed at you personally but a part of me suspects that it is because there isn't the steady flow of easy rps in between the fg vs fg if you go elsewhere.

im offended

we never went to the other side for free rps even if we had to roam for a long time without meeting a group and you have to keep in mind enemy groups are still enemies, we aren't always the best mates.. the place where the action is will always attract the groups, most of the time a fg area will be formed without even having to talk about it.. this time it needed a little nudge, /shrug

west side was fine for fights, going to emain means you have to trust all the other groups to keep coming back there which can be quite boring if they dont show. so yeah, staying in hw was a 'safety net' but it wasn't needed that time. moving all the groups to a completely empty zone would make the fights too artificial i think

 

[Javai]

we never went to the other side for free rps even if we had to roam for a long time without meeting a group

That's why I said it wasn't personal.

Certain other fgs often roll over me when solo'ing or duo'ing or on the way to a siege, which gives the impression that for many of the people who claim to want fg vs fg rps> fair fights

These are the same groups that camp drop off points at sieges, will run in and bomb people at a siege but not actually bother defending the keep itself.

That's how they like to play, no problem, its the hypocritical whining on here when their fights get 'added' on that bugs me