Mezzing and Thanes

[old.Noita]

Well as someone with AoE mezz...albeit PB I must admit to having some sympathy with Laga and Ottar and the rest who advocate limited use of AE Thane/RM and so on.

But...

I havent been able to connect to the game for 3 days due to technical difficulties with one of the routers either alter.net in Sweden or somewhere beyond So I cant comment on the /as stuff. But love it or loathe it Mezz wins Battles.

But...

On the other hand, I was at a HEAVILY defended DC a week or so ago, Albs were holding and defending in large numbers...Mids attacking. I think our numbers were fairly even and levels also (though there may have been a few more Albs, looked like it but not sure). Blejsarus coordinated the RMs/Thanes etc and we obliterated the Albs in almost no time, took DC and went off to DF with happy jolly little faces

AE Thanes/RMs and so on can be heroes too And not all mezzers are perfect either.

Ottar: You wrote a fantastic piece about Rams and so on here a while ago....maybe someone should post AE101, or something

 

[old.Revz]

You know what is better than some Thane AE? More Thane AE! Anyone telling you otherwise is just a jealous (yes jealous) mezzer who would dearly love to have your manly (trolly?) damage dealing abilities. Many of us Albs tremble in our boots each time the mighty (7 damage) hammers or spears fall.

When you see the "ZZZZZ's" above our heads give us a wakeup call with the mighty Midgard AE You will get more RP too!

 

[updos]

<Notes down people to add to ignore list>

 

[old.arnora]

GO LAGA GO

I love the hammer thing, If I have effects all that is, but I have to agree with Laga. If you have healers that can mezz, dont breake mezz. Yes, it can be fast rp and Its fun, but we all know that caster is always the frist to die and if the healer die, the group is also dead.. When they are more than 1 group you need the mezz from the healer.

Dunno how many healers/Shaman we was in emain last night, but If we had worked together, albs and hibs would be dead. I must say that we didnt talked that much about strategy, so I dont want to blame thane or rm for mezzbreake. Cero tryed to talk to us in /as, but did we listen? Nope... Dunno how many times I had to ride the damn horse last night..

 

[Solid]

Glyph, I once screamed on /as about the pillock Thane that AE at mmg Emain and effectively lost us the battle as my group Healer, Laarn did an AE mezz on 20+ albs chokepointed thru the mg gates, 2 secs later BAM AE Hammers by a certain thane whom I now know who did it, and it got us all killed.

FFS I am a thane and I went mental at a fellow thane who obviously dont know how to play his class, and I will tell you, 50% of the thanes on Prydwen dont know how to RvR proper, but those replying here all do, and so have every right to defend the comment about Thanes in general being lame ass Mez breakers.

 

[old.mattshanes]

Personally thanes are a great class and all you thanes should ignore these idiots who are bothering you.Play your class how u want,go rvr do what u want and have fun with your class how u want.Also max dont u dare delete lol.

 

[Azal]

I like the people playing thanes (most of the time!) I just generally don't like the effects that thanes in general have on RVR fights. Mid rarely has enough healers let alone as many as we would like and the amount of times I've seen the whole 1-2 healers for the 40 mids in emain log onto alts in disgust after being treated to a ganking courtesy of 'ooo looka mah pretty hammers!' is pathetic.

I wish I could get a spell line that removed peoples power bars to 0 I know who I'd be using it on and it wouldn't be albs/hibs.

 

[oldgrim]

<softly, softly> PLZ dont break mezz

you wouldnt do it in PvE, dont do it in RvR!

trying to be positive. its obvious that the offending mezz beakers do not read these forums so we should spam (ever so slightly) in /s at the AMG or wherever


/macro mezzbreaker /s PLEASE DONT BREAK MESMERIZE SPELLS OR I WILL BREAK YOU!!!

you dont need to go mad, but when you hear "ALBS INC TO AMG" spam this little macro a bit and all will be well. It may take a week or 2 but we need to teach these people how to play the game.

 

[old.Bull]

Originally posted by Solid
............as I forgot to get slam

*cough*...Something you said on the original camelot boards suddenly comes to my mind *cough*

 

[old.arnora]

Originally posted by old.mattshanes
Ignore these idiots who are bothering you.Play your class how u want,go rvr do what u want and have fun with your class how u want.

We dont have anything against Thane or AE, thats not what this post is about...... We love them, but sometimes AE is a bad idea..

 

[blain]

If I was to count the number of times I had been killed by Mezz Breaking, it would take half of Prydwen just to have enough fingers....

The Better scenario would be this.
Party with Thane, Healer and Runecaster.(cast times are example and may be incorrect.)

Storm Calling AoE - 5 second cast time
RM AoE - 4 Second Cast time
Healers AoE Stun - 5 Second cast time.

1. Thane Casts AoE
2. RM Casts AoE
3. Healer Casts AoE
4. Wait
5. Thane AoE goes off
6. RM AoE goes off
7. Healers AoE goes off.
8. Everyone happy.

I have said this before and I will say this again.
For successful RvR you really need Voice Comms.

Blain
Vikingar

 

[Noiq]

Funny thing about this thread is that only Silverhood mentions what this is about.......RP's!!

In my honest opinion, every RvR freak that bitch about lost battles and rp's should be made to play warrior in RvR just for a single day......then they get to appreciate every little point they get.

U think u got it hard?? try being cannon fodder every fuckin time, dying b4 kills and see the rp's roll in to the others - or better yet try being solo in RvR as a warrior, great fun!

I don't blame thanes, they're just trying to max their rp's - at least that's understandable

If ne1 should bitch about nething regarding RvR, it should be the warriors - coz we are expected to do 2 things: shut up and die - and yet, check the forums, we're the ones that bitch the least about RvR............

Question: Do u know how frustrating it is being frontline cannon fodder in a raid led by morons?

Ps: I'm not bitching about being a warrior.....just bewildered at the fact, that some of u dont know how good u got it

 

[ImLestat]

Originally posted by old.arnora


We dont have anything against Thane or AE, thats not what this post is about...... We love them

Oh, you obviously didn't listen to what Laga and Ottar yelled over alliance chat last night then....

Still waiting for that apology.

 

[old.Immortal]

no..

Originally posted by old.Blain

Storm Calling AoE - 5 second cast time
RM AoE - 4 Second Cast time
Healers AoE Stun - 5 Second cast time.

firstly, this is not talk about aoe _stun_, its _mezz_ so forget about it.
secondly, the cast-timers are:

mjollnir - 4 sec.
odins lagg - 4 sec.
healer AE stun - 2.5 sec.
healer AE mezz - 3 sec.

and at last, this is nearly impossible to achieve due to lagg and other factors.. forget about it

dont reply to this

 

[old.Kian]

Seems to me, if Thanes are getting all the RvR fun and Healers aren't....

Go with the Flow, scrub your Healer characters and play Thanes! You'll enjoy RvR so much more

And of course, so will I - would be nice to do some proper melee rather than stand there drooling until Blejsarus wanders up and smacks my skull down clear between my kneecaps...

 

[Myshra]

if your a thane, tonight STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS!!

in groups you get rp (aoe farming... mmmm) and you have a big hammer, yay! from a group of 7 thanes and a skald and nonce about in emain tonight, dont worry about your main force, AoE everything, youll get much more rp.

otherwise stick your own realm and make a fire wiz, leeching is just as easy

 

[laga]

Apology

Plz read my 1st post and youll see me apologize....There is no denying I went over the edge when I accused all Thanes of being dumb....I snapped...but plz ask yourself why I snapped.....
Some of the posts have revealed why I should stop playing my healer for good......ITS ALL ABOUT RP.....meaning ppl will do dumb things to satisfy their own ego and rp-hunger.
I couldnt care less for rp(besides the stats thing) but it seems I belong to the minority.
What gets my heart pumping is when I see a force of twice as many albs...mezz and win by teamwork....takes 2-3 mins for my knees to stop shaking after such an experience...BUT it seldom happens anymore..
There is no bragging in when I say I've played this game since beta...it only puts some credibility into my words when I say that mezz is an incredibly powerful spell..... Ask yourself why mezz has been hit in the patches and will be even more reduced in usefulness in future patches.....Its THE battlewinner in a professional fight.(talking about BIG rvsr in the open/at milegates here). I hereby declare Thursday nights as AE-free evenings....Albs if I were you I'd plan dragon/legionhunts on Thursdays since mids will rule all RvsR


Now I leave the subject and plead to all ppl...stop playing for rp and start playing to win every fight youre in....there is not really much honour in rp anyway since it mostly reflects playing time/class choice......

 

[kain_pravus]

Another thane here.

I agree as with all class' theirs people who don't play in a group friendly way (mezz breaking as an example)

But AE hammer is god damn excellent for some situation, take keep defense/attack, can runies stand up on the battlements and survive more than a few hits?

Thanes can stand up front and harass the archers, be targeted and happily take the hits.

ok the damage output is crud, but it does damage and more importantly we can continue the damage.

AE has a place in a thanes arsenal, all people who say other wise are idiots who can **** *** <--- sorry I've had enough of fools who think they know everything.

Concentrate on the mezz breaking thanes, take names and educated them... I don't AE unless it's called for.

 

[ImLestat]

Re: Apology

Originally posted by laga
Plz read my 1st post and youll see me apologize....There is no denying I went over the edge when I accused all Thanes of being dumb....I snapped...but plz ask yourself why I snapped.....
Some of the posts have revealed why I should stop playing my healer for good......ITS ALL ABOUT RP.....meaning ppl will do dumb things to satisfy their own ego and rp-hunger.
I couldnt care less for rp(besides the stats thing) but it seems I belong to the minority.
What gets my heart pumping is when I see a force of twice as many albs...mezz and win by teamwork....takes 2-3 mins for my knees to stop shaking after such an experience...BUT it seldom happens anymore..
There is no bragging in when I say I've played this game since beta...it only puts some credibility into my words when I say that mezz is an incredibly powerful spell..... Ask yourself why mezz has been hit in the patches and will be even more reduced in usefulness in future patches.....Its THE battlewinner in a professional fight.(talking about BIG rvsr in the open/at milegates here). I hereby declare Thursday nights as AE-free evenings....Albs if I were you I'd plan dragon/legionhunts on Thursdays since mids will rule all RvsR


Now I leave the subject and plead to all ppl...stop playing for rp and start playing to win every fight youre in....there is not really much honour in rp anyway since it mostly reflects playing time/class choice......

Ok, didn't see your apology in the first post, was quite furious when I read it the first time. Sorry.

Other than that, I (even as a thane) agree with you. Mez is a winner. All of us with AE spells should avoid using them if there is even a remote possibility that there is a mez coming up.

 

[old.Immortal]

sigh

kain, are you by any chance a troll? ...................

 

[kain_pravus]

100% norse goodness

 

[old.Ayam Ganbatte]

The incident in question was at Midgard Mile Gate in Emain. There were three healers: Laga, Trina (Thina? the one from Svea Ulvar) and yours truly. The Albions came through, I was mesmerising the door, the other two must have been as well, because there was a huge bottleneck of Albions mesmerised in the doors...then...then...THEN you know what happened.

It was a bit frustrating, but I just asked our group skald to run us back to the portal keep as soon as those hammers dangled above everyone, so I got out of that one safely. That's not to say I dislike thanes; to use the cliche, everyone say 'Go To Oprah' when I say 'it's not the class, it's the player'.

There are very few healers, but the mistakes of others don't put me off playing. What puts me off is being ungrouped and people expecting me to just mesmerise while they gain the realm points. It's a fairly selfish expectation if they have space in their group, have nobody incoming to fill it, and quite obviously want to 'farm' realmpoints off your back. The catch to this is that they know about mesmerising mechanics, so fights would go swimmingly, but you cannot gain reward because they won't group you. Sometimes it's a very unrewarding circle.

 

[laga]

Thx for the fun

Respect to all mids who played amg emain ~20:00 Cet+.
Almost no AE. I sure had a lot of fun and we didnt outnumber them one bit the 1st 3 fights....actually I think they had more ppl atleast the 2nd time but we still owned their asses.
If we keep this up we can start getting into the finer points of tactics....like doing AE-stun/massive AE dd combos and stuff.
I prefer the rule to be no AE as default though(if there are messers around ofcourse).
Thx again, was like oldtimes fun there for awhile....

 

[Ottar]

> I was mesmerising the door, the other two must have been as well

The point you didnt mention was that right before all that happened, Laga was running around like a little squirrel spamming ”NO AOE” in main chat for several times, which was then promtly followed by mjollnir right in the middle of the mezzed albs. Mind boggles, really.

> What puts me off is being ungrouped and people expecting me
> to just mesmerise while they gain the realm points.

Ungrouped healer in Emain? You must be kidding? About realmpoints, unless one is a stealther, the typical RP farming off charging albs between APK and AMG does not yield significantly more RP solo than in a good group. In current version it does not.

> Respect to all mids who played amg emain ~20:00 Cet+.
> Thx again, was like oldtimes fun there for awhile....

Aye, felt good for a change!

Ottar

 

[old.Enigma]

There were plenty of spears and hammers in first fight and third fight. In fact thanes and runies charged and I got no rp in the 3rd wipe of albs

Ok to the point of the whole thread. This all depends on how many healers you have. We had two battles of equal numbers last night with the both sides 30+ so you would guess mezz is the only rule. The fisrt fight hammers and spears rained it was close and we won. (The healers mezzed then switched to stun) The second fight same numbers we only used ae mezz. Close fight same result Mids won.

I'm not giving a preference just telling you what I observed. The fight had the same result and closeness If someone did the PROPER maths and showed me the cut over to what should be used when I would be interested. If I have 50 ae nukers and 1 healer, would we still be shouting mezz? And when you do your maths remember the melee classes can still melee. Also include the fact mezz gets broken even when your single targetting as ppl dont go for the same target. Also let me know if The hammers/spears interrupt enemy casters and figure in the -damage we wouldnt receive. Thanes can get close to casters healers wouldnt dare they would be dead in a fair fight.

Also look at whether we are advancing or holding position. Holding position makes mezz easier but advancing you would expect to be mezzed more than you can mezz.

So lets no be one dimensional and someone work it out and let us know. Because what I feel ACTUALLY loses battles is ppl following different plans. Why not lose a battle testing both scenarios? Have fun, do both, keep the oposition thinking as to what tactics we use.

Until then everyone will generally comply with what is asked. These failed battle stories are a bit OTT . Anyone would think mid lost most there battles. Mids lose most of there fights through impatience and not waiting for reinforcements etc. How many times have we got 40 ppl in emain 20 waiting to port 20 getting wiped. Eventually we get together.

 

[Solid]

I would actively seek out a mezzing healer as opposed to go it solo or without, same for a skald.

I am usless snail without a Skald and a dead ass without a healer, Ayam I would happilly group you any day

Sceond thoughts, your an aug spec healer? omg the pain, PAC PAC PAC PAC PAC

U get the hint

 

[Quemine]

*looks over milegate and sees twice the number of albs than we are mids*

/y No AE, let us mezz!

*albs pours through and a couple AE mezzes stops all but a few of them*

/say Nice mezz!

*ponders about why all the albs are suddenly running towards me*

/effects all

*sees hammers everywhere followed by death spam of mids*


If I'd gotten a copper everytime I've seen that happen... I'd be a Mithrillionaire! Seriously, AE dmg is a powerfull spell but when you're outnumbered mezz is way more powerfull. Think for just .5 seconds before you push that little AE icon. If any healer yelled for no AE then don't use it... maybe you all can save 5s and 20 minutes ride back to the frontier...

Now of course are there lots of thanes who knows what to do and when to do it, cheers to you all!

Quemine ~ Healer

 

[laga]

The fight had the same result and closeness If someone did the PROPER maths and showed me the cut over to what should be used when I would be interested.

I cant do any proper maths(maybe I could but I wont try). I play out of feeling and experience since not any battle is the same. But since the use of AE was done in such dumb manner I felt we had to start somewhere and that is by teaching ppl that we should default to not using it. Then there are special instances when AE could be used like when we are low on healers.
Checklist could look like this for battles in the open or at milegates with like 20+ on each side :
1 Healers around=default no AE
2 Healers chainstun (and yells AE)=AE in the center of the stun for as long as you see stuneffects+5s or so.
3 Enemy begins to flee=stop all AE so healers can mezz for total wipeout.......Dont use spells on fleeing enemys that become messed rather let a few tanks catch up to them or they manage to flee when you hit them with your spell(feel free to spell them to death if youre certain theyll die).......when in pursuit let the ppl behind you take care of the enemy close infront of you...target the one further ahead that youre certain to reach before he gets safe.
No tactic is 100% since enemy adapts but if all follow the checklist we are sure to win a lot more.

Also let me know if The hammers/spears interrupt enemy casters and figure in the -damage we wouldnt receive

Mezzed casters cant cast AND they cant move.....It is fairly simple to move out of an AE-area without sustaining too much damage and to my experience you cant see a caster that has backed out of AE very well due to the effects so he can usually stand near the AE-edge and blast away(remember that the spells he uses 90% of the time has longer range than AE).
Dont forget the unfortunate healer that went in there and mezzed them only to have it destroyed by AE a few secs later.....who do you think the mezzed ppl go for? The damn mezzer....This situation has had me killed many times or forced me to use up all my instas to save my ass....the instas couldve been put to better use.

Thanes can get close to casters healers wouldnt dare they would be dead in a fair fight.

Hey....I DO wear chain u know and have 1400hp with a sucky hp buff(mine)...never checked what I have with good buff. I am betting I have more survivability close to the enemy than a thane....2Xinsta heal.....4 insta mezz/stun AND a lot more ppl watching my butt since they know the importance of a live healer.

Also look at whether we are advancing or holding position. Holding position makes mezz easier but advancing you would expect to be mezzed more than you can mezz.

My experience tells me its the other way around.
I manage to mezz hordes of albs when advancing. With skald speed, insta mezz and running in a zigzaggy manner they 95% of the time fail to mezz me before I get them. They also usually are a little more tightly packed when on D as compared to when they advance where they tend to get spread in length meaning I cant mezz as many.
When they charge on the other hand they are more spread as stated above and it's hard for me/others to single out their mezzers usually ending up in us being messed.
Attacking also has a significant impact on morale that usually makes it the best option even when outnumbered....What do you do when enemy charges?...my guess is that you use your spells but also keep an eye on if youre fellow mids start fleeing....this makes you hesitate..meaning loss of valuable secs....To prove my point just look at the albs when we charge....youll see a lot start running(or backing off a bit)....stop...look back....etc...THIS effect is very important. It is also important to charge early BEFORE they get a chance to evaluate our numbers because if they know they outnumber us theyll act with much more confidence.

I guess I am way out of topic here but one more thing......NEVER ever flee once you've made CONTACT(important word here) with the enemy. I have NEVER seen a flight where we havent lost 5-20% of our numbers...there are always some poor guys without skaldspeed, some who miss the RUN!! in the chat or are semiafk. SO when we have fled we are worse off than we were when we started fleeing in the 1st place meaning we get our butts kicked anyway...have a lot of ppl pissed at the fleers(wonder if this is correct english) and if youre close to pk and get safe youll still have to wait for reinforcements meaning you might aswell try fighting since standing at pk is as booring as riding back anyway.
The mistake has already been made when you get into CONTACT with a superior force so FIGHT. The best way is to never approach them when outnumbered....rather hang back and get scoutinfo. This also proves why apk-camping is soo stupid...we dont know if there are 30 fresh albs on pad...no advance warning at all. There are other reasons why apk-camping is stupid by other classes than stealthers but I really got to end this megapost......:sleeping:

 

[Jenna.]

I hate minstrels

 

[Ottar]

> So lets no be one dimensional and someone work it out and let us know.

Pretty much completely agree with Laga here.

We could spend months here trying to develop a usable modelling technique. Doubt anyone would bother, the complexity of it is just too much. What we could use is experience of players who have been out there alot. We could also from now on, start to conciously observe the battles a bit more.. Who knows what we may find yet.

Anyhow. One counter hypothesis , as far I understand is that healer stun plus AoE nukes are comparably as effective as healer mez plus no AoE.

In my experience, this is not so.

Being without ranged attacks, I am the one who with others like me charge into the swarm of enemies and lets away with DD’s and me trusty hammer. In order to cenario above hold air, two things must be commonly observable:

1. AoE doing significant damage, so that it is actually easier for the non-ranged melee to finish off already damaged opposition.

This is not so. Relatively rarely do I see a stunned opponent who does not already have a tank or two on it and who is not at full or near full HP. If they have runies/hunters on them, they are either dead or running. Otherwise, significant damage to the enemy is done by melee. Therefore, what I would much prefer actually, is having those thanes helping us out in melee. Their melee damage significantly surpasses that of skalds and they could be really useful using their hand weapons rather than staying back in relative safety, casting mjollnirs.

2. Stuns really being much good in large fights.

This is not so. In charge-from-standoff situations, the time it takes for any melee to get to the victim of a stun is at least several seconds. Most melee using heavy 2handed weapons, means that a tank can get 1, sometimes 2 hits on 1 stunned opponent before EVERY enemy around them becomes unstunned and turns against them.


Co-ordinated full thane groups + healer for stun could be something altogether different. Then again, even if someone makes it work for once, no way do I see it as being a consistently used tactic.

Also, another mistake I find myself and others doing is rushing into melee, sticking to the first opponent I manage to find and then hammering away on him. Pick your targets! A second or two spent on picking a target pays off.

If it wears a robe, kill him.

If there aint no robes, see if there’s a small shield around. Kill him.

If it turns into a moose, forget him, pick another target and kill the moose last.

Killing casters/healers/buffers first means their tanks will be without CC, heals and buffs by the time you get to them. Only problem here being alb smiters who will mez anything around them the very moment anything gets close to them.

Ottar