MagnusK - why does the customer need to do this?

MephTheLaw

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Sep 13, 2008
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74
Right I rarely do this but seeing as you've decided to rubbish my comments and then use the whole "I have teh qualifications" line. I'm calling it.

You're talking shit mate. You might live in a country where isp's get to treat their customers like morons and they get no comeback, if that's the case and your experience then you have my sympathy. It doesn't make you qualified in any way whatsoever.

PlusNet | Home & Business Broadband Internet Access & Phone Services UK - register for the forums and click the games forum. That's ONE isp. You'll even find a post from me there (Isquish). FFS Plus aren't even reknowned as a good isp for gamers. I went with trem's recommendation when i got pissed off with nthell and have been paying for it ever since!

It is NOT a server side fix. You and llendl seem to be under this assumption that once traffic leaves your router it's on a straight pipe - point to point direct to goa and everything that goes right must be their fault.

IF, as you say, this is all goa's fault and traffic shaping is not at fault (or not one of the faults) why, am I now unaffected by this issue when I was 10 days ago? I'll give you a hint too, Tuesday last week was the magic day for me. Tuesday was also the day when Plus net finished testing their ellacoya changes and their Q&A authorised the change request to make those changes to their system.

I never said it was firewall/router config based - I think you'll find someone else said that you decided to lump that one on me too in your fit of "I'm qualified" emo rage

Seriously mate - I can understand you're annoyed and want to play and I feel for you. I was pissed when this affected me. I'm advising you to get your isp on the phone and just demand a manager. Keep demanding until you get put through to someone who will talk to their network techies. It "might" not be traffic shaping in your case - if it isn't it WILL be something your ISP have to escalate.

All I'm saying in this is if you want to play the game, I'd follow GOA's advice and talk to your isps. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's Still an issue with peering in open transit somewhere - god knows they made my daoc life a pain at times. I don't jump on the "Goa/Mythic are shit" bandwagon however. They're not - I've played games supported my much worse mmo companies - SW;G being one and *shudder*neocron*shudder* being another.

M
I can't be bothered to fully read all that now but, I live in the UK and I use to work for BT, I have both a CCNA and CCNP. I left BT to go to Uni to do a Bsc degree in network security next year.

It's not traffic shaping that is effecting it or any fair usage, I've already said why in one of my posts. I didn’t do anything to fix the “auth failed” apart from clearing my war cache which did help and waited patiently for GoA / Mythic to up there fix. And luckily enough I haven’t had it since then.

You ring up any ISP about it, first person won’t have a clue, it will get forwarded and they will “look into it” and they won’t do sweet Fack All about it, they might actually laugh when you tell them the UDP ports.
And afaik Plus net don’t own sweet fack all, they rent it off BT, a bit like an insurance broker that doesn’t insure you but you’re still there customer and support.

PingPlotter is your friend in tracing any network/connection issues.
Because as someone has said, this is 2008, 80% of routers will block / won't register ICMP packets properly and it’s very out dated way to do a tracert these days.

I had authentication failed (application will now exit) and a time out on even logging in to the patcher, before I even started to connect to the sodding authentication program for 4 days after release between the hours of 19:00 and 23:00 uk time. If I managed to get logged in at 18:00 when I got home and stay logged in I would be able to play without any issues whatsoever

Both of those issues disappeared once my isp made the changes to ellacoya as linked here.

Yeah - I'd say that means it's goa's fault ;)

M
Btw if I remember correctly (Might not be the same guy), mgX did a lot of coding on DoL especially server side. So before you and poag start telling him he's full of shit, you might want to pull your head out you're arse. Because he's actually on the right track, unlike most people in this thread.
 

Manisch Depressiv

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I just stated the fact that, since OT owns half the traffic throught Europe, is clearly easier that THEY do involve Major EU Isps in the configuration of it.

So you do have a problem with becoming a door-to-door salesman on GOA's behalf?

I worship you :). I don't understand it either, big launch, France Telecom and stuff, they could have communicated it.
 

VidX

One of Freddy's beloved
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Dec 24, 2003
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589
Llendil is cracking me up here.

Go read about modern packet shaping and it's effect on encrypted packets then try reading your own posts again.

Issue is not caused by Mythic/Goa. It's the effect your ISP's network specifications is having on the traffic from your computer to GOA's servers and the return path.

Any ISP worth paying has a process for updating their traffic priority rules, check your ISP's forum or contact their support. ISP's usually make changes like this on a daily basis and it takes less than a minute to do.

GOA have provided the solution, if you don't like it, don't do it and make yourself look even more silly :)

Oh, and since we're on about qualifications and who knows best: CCIE, CCNP, CCNA, Checkpoint certified and I work with global VPN networks with part of my job being to investigate ISP connections and resolve timeout issues caused by network latency and packet size. Referring clients to their ISP to request specific changes based on IP, port and protocol is a very common thing.

Saying you have qualifications doesn't mean you know anything about a specific subject. Try listening to official responses and trying them before you start complaining.
 

VidX

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It's not traffic shaping that is effecting it or any fair usage, I've already said why in one of my posts. I didn’t do anything to fix the “auth failed” apart from clearing my war cache which did help and waited patiently for GoA / Mythic to up there fix. And luckily enough I haven’t had it since then.

Or maybe someone else using your ISP contacted them to request the changes. Or the ISP was monitoring traffic logs and made the changes themselves. Or someone at the ISP plays WAR, seen an issue and made the changes.... Try asking.

You ring up any ISP about it, first person won’t have a clue, it will get forwarded and they will “look into it” and they won’t do sweet Fack All about it, they might actually laugh when you tell them the UDP ports.
And afaik Plus net don’t own sweet fack all, they rent it off BT, a bit like an insurance broker that doesn’t insure you but you’re still there customer and support.

That's why the first thing you do is tell them what they need to know. "Hi, I'm having issues playing a new game. The developer advises that traffic on port 12345 coming from IP address 12.34.56.78 using these protocols need to be given priority as gaming protocols on your network. Thanks".

Never let your ISP control the conversation if you know what you need.

the server auth fail thing seems to be a serverside problem...the fact that shit goes down the drain in primetime is traceable back to goa :)

Not unless it's an issue with a delay in encrypted packets making it to the server or back again. Most authentication packets need to contain all the authentication data in one packet and can sometimes be larger than normal gaming packets. When you increase a packet size you also increase the time it takes for it to be routed to where it needs to go. Add in the fact that you are trying to send it during times where network load is at it's highest and you begin to see how it gets delayed to the point where it just times out.

A good example to show this is to use the -l command on a PING. Sending a normal 32 byte PING to a computer a few hops away will be quite quick. However, rarely anything but ICMP uses a 32 byte packet nowadays. most encrypted authentication packets are upwards of 8k. So, try sending a PING with '-l 8192' and see the difference in the PING response.

The way modern packet shaping works is rules are set on the ISP's servers to identify packets coming from or going to a certain IP over a certain port and using a certain protocol. The ISP then has the ability to say "OK, we send these packets before other ones" and therefore reduce the delay on routing the packet.

Serverside coding has absolutely nothing to do with packet routing. They are two completely different things. The only fix that Mythic/GOA could possibly put in place on the servers is to reduce the packet size are remove any encryption from packets that they have on there. However, reducing the packets means more packets need to be sent and, as I mentioned in a previous post, removing the encryption would mean putting their customer's data at risk.
 

Manisch Depressiv

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Llendil is cracking me up here.

Go read about modern packet shaping and it's effect on encrypted packets then try reading your own posts again.

Issue is not caused by Mythic/Goa. It's the effect your ISP's network specifications is having on the traffic from your computer to GOA's servers and the return path.

Any ISP worth paying has a process for updating their traffic priority rules, check your ISP's forum or contact their support. ISP's usually make changes like this on a daily basis and it takes less than a minute to do.

GOA have provided the solution, if you don't like it, don't do it and make yourself look even more silly :)

Oh, and since we're on about qualifications and who knows best: CCIE, CCNP, CCNA, Checkpoint certified and I work with global VPN networks with part of my job being to investigate ISP connections and resolve timeout issues caused by network latency and packet size. Referring clients to their ISP to request specific changes based on IP, port and protocol is a very common thing.

Saying you have qualifications doesn't mean you know anything about a specific subject. Try listening to official responses and trying them before you start complaining.

Thanks for the input! A good read (thank god my ISP doesn't traffic shape).

Any hints on the (network) lag when playing in PvP?
 

`mongoose

One of Freddy's beloved
Joined
Jan 9, 2004
Messages
957
I can't be bothered to fully read all that now but, I live in the UK and I use to work for BT, I have both a CCNA and CCNP. I left BT to go to Uni to do a Bsc degree in network security next year.

It's not traffic shaping that is effecting it or any fair usage, I've already said why in one of my posts. I didn’t do anything to fix the “auth failed” apart from clearing my war cache which did help and waited patiently for GoA / Mythic to up there fix. And luckily enough I haven’t had it since then.

You ring up any ISP about it, first person won’t have a clue, it will get forwarded and they will “look into it” and they won’t do sweet Fack All about it, they might actually laugh when you tell them the UDP ports.
And afaik Plus net don’t own sweet fack all, they rent it off BT, a bit like an insurance broker that doesn’t insure you but you’re still there customer and support.

Because as someone has said, this is 2008, 80% of routers will block / won't register ICMP packets properly and it’s very out dated way to do a tracert these days.

Btw if I remember correctly (Might not be the same guy), mgX did a lot of coding on DoL especially server side. So before you and poag start telling him he's full of shit, you might want to pull your head out you're arse. Because he's actually on the right track, unlike most people in this thread.

There's nothing I can write to your comments that hasn't been pretty comprehensivly said by jupitus and vidx. See if you can be arsed to click jup's link btw.

I've never said mgX is full of shit. I would however, based upon your aggressive and frankly ill-informed posts here say that you, most definitely, are full of it.

Regards

M
 

aika

Can't get enough of FH
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Messages
4,300
my normal ping is 87ms, however ping with a 8bit packet is 600 ms, does it mean that my ISP does traffic shaping? I have no problems logging or lag ingame apart from scenarios though ;(
 

MephTheLaw

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
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Messages
74
Or maybe someone else using your ISP contacted them to request the changes. Or the ISP was monitoring traffic logs and made the changes themselves. Or someone at the ISP plays WAR, seen an issue and made the changes.... Try asking.



That's why the first thing you do is tell them what they need to know. "Hi, I'm having issues playing a new game. The developer advises that traffic on port 12345 coming from IP address 12.34.56.78 using these protocols need to be given priority as gaming protocols on your network. Thanks".

Never let your ISP control the conversation if you know what you need.



Not unless it's an issue with a delay in encrypted packets making it to the server or back again. Most authentication packets need to contain all the authentication data in one packet and can sometimes be larger than normal gaming packets. When you increase a packet size you also increase the time it takes for it to be routed to where it needs to go. Add in the fact that you are trying to send it during times where network load is at it's highest and you begin to see how it gets delayed to the point where it just times out.

A good example to show this is to use the -l command on a PING. Sending a normal 32 byte PING to a computer a few hops away will be quite quick. However, rarely anything but ICMP uses a 32 byte packet nowadays. most encrypted authentication packets are upwards of 8k. So, try sending a PING with '-l 8192' and see the difference in the PING response.

The way modern packet shaping works is rules are set on the ISP's servers to identify packets coming from or going to a certain IP over a certain port and using a certain protocol. The ISP then has the ability to say "OK, we send these packets before other ones" and therefore reduce the delay on routing the packet.

Serverside coding has absolutely nothing to do with packet routing. They are two completely different things. The only fix that Mythic/GOA could possibly put in place on the servers is to reduce the packet size are remove any encryption from packets that they have on there. However, reducing the packets means more packets need to be sent and, as I mentioned in a previous post, removing the encryption would mean putting their customer's data at risk.
I agree with what you say, but the "Average Joe" won't know what to say and they will say bla bla, the game people say I need these ports for traffic shaping

Ports:
TCP: 80, 8040-8047, 10622
UDP: 1024-65535

And then there going laugh and say, ok we will investigate it and forward it on. And nothing will be done, you sign an agreement when you sign up to your ISP, it’s not there responsibility to do anything out of the daily norm for you to connect to the game. It’s a developer’s reasonability to cater for the “norm” and meet the standard.

And I do not remember about adding any game rule traffic for traffic shaping while I worked there. And regarding the fix, people just happened to ring up BT the same day Plus net etc “fixed it”? Because around the same time mine started working and everyone else’s was when Mythic announced the quick fix about the server list / info response.
 

Jupitus

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I agree with what you say, but the "Average Joe" won't know what to say and they will say bla bla, the game people say I need these ports for traffic shaping

Ports:
TCP: 80, 8040-8047, 10622
UDP: 1024-65535

And then there going laugh and say, ok we will investigate it and forward it on. And nothing will be done, you sign an agreement when you sign up to your ISP, it’s not there responsibility to do anything out of the daily norm for you to connect to the game. It’s a developer’s reasonability to cater for the “norm” and meet the standard.
Then change ISP if you one has shit technical support... it isn't GOA's fault your ISP sucks... read my link - that was from the Plus net user forum, and they are (I thought) supposed to be one of the lower end of the scale...

And I do not remember about adding any game rule traffic for traffic shaping while I worked there. And regarding the fix, people just happened to ring up BT the same day Plus net etc “fixed it”? Because around the same time mine started working and everyone else’s was when Mythic announced the quick fix about the server list / info response.

So because you never did it noone else does?
 

Jupitus

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Since you appear unable to follow a link, here is a quote:

PlusNetSupportPerson said:
It seems that 3 of the traffic management switches have failed to pick up the rules change we put through on Thursday properly. This means they aren't prioritising Warhammer traffic correctly.

The team is just determining if we can fix this during hours or if it will require an out of hours change. In the mean time, if you are experiencing problems keep rebooting your router until you connect to one of the following gateways:

thn-ag2
thn-ag3
thn-ag4
pcl-ag2
pcl-ag3
pth-ag1
pth-ag2
pth-ag3
ptn-ag1
ptn-ag3

These should be getting their traffic prioritised accordingly. You can check what gateway you are on by going to Which gateway

If you are connected to:

pte-ag1
pte-ag2
pte-ag3

then your Warhammer traffic won't be getting prioritised properly.

Really sorry about this. I'll update as soon as I know when we'll be able to fix the problem with the 3 switches.
 

adams901

Can't get enough of FH
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
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Plusnet was one of the best ISPs I have had, unfortunatly I moved to Nildram so I could benefit from a free work supplied connection.
 

MephTheLaw

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Messages
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Then change ISP if you one has shit technical support... it isn't GOA's fault your ISP sucks... read my link - that was from the Plus net user forum, and they are (I thought) supposed to be one of the lower end of the scale...



So because you never did it noone else does?
Guessed you missed this bit Jup

"people just happened to ring up BT the same day Plus net etc “fixed it”? Because around the same time mine started working and everyone else’s was when Mythic announced the quick fix about the server list / info response."

Yea guess plusnet fixed it for every isp by rolling out the patch to the server as well :p.

It comes down to, if it "really" was ISPs then why did Mythic have to change there code for EU and US? Which fixed the issue? That's a lot of ISPs and different connections, It was server side, so really the arguement is over and pointless.
 

Jupitus

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Guessed you missed this bit Jup

"people just happened to ring up BT the same day Plus net etc “fixed it”? Because around the same time mine started working and everyone else’s was when Mythic announced the quick fix about the server list / info response."

Yea guess plusnet fixed it for every isp by rolling out the patch to the server as well :p.

It comes down to, if it "really" was ISPs then why did Mythic have to change there code for EU and US? Which fixed the issue? That's a lot of ISPs and different connections, It was server side, so really the arguement is over and pointless.

Where are you getting information about Mythic changing their code??? If you read that Plusnet support thread they are able to clearly spot a problem with the prioritisation of particular packet types, make adjustments to their system, and hence fix the problem for those users...
 

MephTheLaw

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Where are you getting information about Mythic changing their code??? If you read that Plusnet support thread they are able to clearly spot a problem with the prioritisation of particular packet types, make adjustments to their system, and hence fix the problem for those users...
Mythic Dev posted on WARA boards that they have rolled out a patch for this auth issue changing the way the server lists are received, fixing the time out. Around the same time mine started working during prime time.
 

Manisch Depressiv

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Mythic Dev posted on WARA boards that they have rolled out a patch for this auth issue changing the way the server lists are received, fixing the time out. Around the same time mine started working during prime time.

Meph, you're all light gray again... See attached screenshot, it's really annoying :(.
 

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MagnusGOA

English WAR Community Manager
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Timeout length increased

Good evening!
As of yesterday evening, we have implemented a change on our Authentication servers, increasing the time-out length. We are well aware that this is by no means a final solution, but it is our hope that this measure will reduce or solve the "Authentication Failed" issues for some of our users.

Combating these problems remain a high priority for us on all levels.


-Magnus
 

Llendil

Loyal Freddie
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Thanks MagnusK, glad you've found a workaround :)

Ah and VidX, about the qualifications, it's a nice string, always helps, but I don't generally worry about those when I do interviews, I focus on the person themselves before I hire as I tend to ensure everybody has those beforehand ;) I'm glad you enjoyed the thread and it gave you a laugh though :)
 

Jupitus

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Good evening!
As of yesterday evening, we have implemented a change on our Authentication servers, increasing the time-out length. We are well aware that this is by no means a final solution, but it is our hope that this measure will reduce or solve the "Authentication Failed" issues for some of our users.

Combating these problems remain a high priority for us on all levels.


-Magnus

Thanks Magnus... and the date when Plus Net fixed it for their users was around the 26th, Meph...
 

MephTheLaw

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Good evening!
As of yesterday evening, we have implemented a change on our Authentication servers, increasing the time-out length. We are well aware that this is by no means a final solution, but it is our hope that this measure will reduce or solve the "Authentication Failed" issues for some of our users.

Combating these problems remain a high priority for us on all levels.


-Magnus
https://forums.freddyshouse.com/3434561-post146.htmlhttps://forums.freddyshouse.com/war...application-will-now-exit-10.html#post3434561

I hate to be right, :D

Thanks Magnus... and the date when Plus Net fixed it for their users was around the 26th, Meph...
Looked more like the "28th" in that thread? And afaik there was also another patch a while ago.
 

Brommix

Loyal Freddie
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I have been having this all day, first I thought it was the "crash" of the internet earlier but since everyone else in guild seem to be able to log on and I cant I suspect that my Authentication problem is something else.
 

Muylaetrix

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The problem with lag etc is easily traced to the last hops on a traceroute, which is either goa's isp or their own backbone... Probably overloaded or malfunctioning dslams...regarding the engine... its gamebryo, it comes with networking too, which is why the packets are strangely familiar with daoc :p

1, -------------- ,xx.xx.xx.xx
2,78-20-160-1.access.telenet.be,78.20.160.1
3,dD5E0C0C1.access.telenet.be,213.224.192.193
4,dD5E0FD49.access.telenet.be,213.224.253.73
5,dD5E0FD15.access.telenet.be,213.224.253.21
6,dD5E0FD9A.access.telenet.be,213.224.253.154
7,so-1-0-0-dcr1.bru.cw.net,195.2.2.77
8,so-5-0-0.dcr2.bru.cw.net,195.2.25.26
9,so-7-0-0.dcr2.bru.cw.net,195.2.9.206
10,pos0-9-4-0.pastr1.Paris.opentransit.net,193.251.242.250
11,so-0-0-0-0.loncr5.London.opentransit.net,193.251.242.249
12,ge-6-3-0-0.nrlil202.Lille.francetelecom.net,193.252.100.201
13,ge-2-2-0-0.nrlil201.VilleneuveDascq.francetelecom.net,193.252.100.217
14, -------------- ,80.12.201.2
15,,-
--- Destination not reached in selected sample set ---
step 10 - 12 give occasional package loss
step 13 is where i have ALWAYS between 30 - 70 % of package loss. (seems more so in the evening)
step 14 is the first goa router i guess

seems i can comfortably play with up to 50 % package loss without even noticing ingame. it`s just when one of the other routers along the way has a hickup it goes totally wrong.

VilleneuveDascq.francetelecom.net,193.252.100.217 has been giving package loss SINCE DAY ONE. this is the last hop from their isp before reaching the goa office. GOA needs france telecom to assign more bandwith to it.

to me it seems like the hop 13 just can`t cope with the amount of traffic it gets.
.
 

MephTheLaw

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1, -------------- ,xx.xx.xx.xx
2,78-20-160-1.access.telenet.be,78.20.160.1
3,dD5E0C0C1.access.telenet.be,213.224.192.193
4,dD5E0FD49.access.telenet.be,213.224.253.73
5,dD5E0FD15.access.telenet.be,213.224.253.21
6,dD5E0FD9A.access.telenet.be,213.224.253.154
7,so-1-0-0-dcr1.bru.cw.net,195.2.2.77
8,so-5-0-0.dcr2.bru.cw.net,195.2.25.26
9,so-7-0-0.dcr2.bru.cw.net,195.2.9.206
10,pos0-9-4-0.pastr1.Paris.opentransit.net,193.251.242.250
11,so-0-0-0-0.loncr5.London.opentransit.net,193.251.242.249
12,ge-6-3-0-0.nrlil202.Lille.francetelecom.net,193.252.100.201
13,ge-2-2-0-0.nrlil201.VilleneuveDascq.francetelecom.net,193.252.100.217
14, -------------- ,80.12.201.2
15,,-
--- Destination not reached in selected sample set ---
step 10 - 12 give occasional package loss
step 13 is where i have ALWAYS between 30 - 70 % of package loss. (seems more so in the evening)
step 14 is the first goa router i guess

seems i can comfortably play with up to 50 % package loss without even noticing ingame. it`s just when one of the other routers along the way has a hickup it goes totally wrong.

VilleneuveDascq.francetelecom.net,193.252.100.217 has been giving package loss SINCE DAY ONE. this is the last hop from their isp before reaching the goa office. GOA needs france telecom to assign more bandwith to it.

to me it seems like the hop 13 just can`t cope with the amount of traffic it gets.
.
It's blocking / not registering ICMP, you wouldn't able to play comfortable with 50% packet loss.
 

Manisch Depressiv

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not comfortable, but playable.

Standing still, not doing anything, doesn't count as playable.

Has been said a couple of times, either control messages get promoted in priority or discarded, so ping plotters and trace routing tools are hardly a representation of possible network problems, unless you have set up all of those routers you're going through by yourself :p.
 

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