Its Official, Alb Mage's baseline LT is overpowered ^^

[NeonBlue]

Hmm what you seem to forget in that equation is the tool's the Sorc get's accesse to xtra from saving those points , add those and it looks a little bit diff imho.....

in my opinion that doesnt enter the argument...because the arguement is about a baseline spell that does slightly more dmg than a spec spell

but when ur talking about a HP return difference of 30%...then the extra points the SM spends to get this (imo) is worth it

If the Sorc HP return was the same then yes ur arguement would be valid

but thats just my view

 

[Sendraks]

1: Nobody is calling for a nerf to the entire realm. Stop being pedantic, when people say "nerf alb" they dont mean nerf everything in alb.

2: Pallys are no gimps lol, I would rate them up near the top with Warrios on being classes that are 'perfect'.

3: That solution is redicilous, allready nearly all caster dps is over the top, take a look in emain at the ammount of casters, theres a reason for this.

AoM nerf, Resist Piercing, ToA bonuses(favouring Casters), Grapple, Bodyguard.

The solution, is definetly NOT to increase Wizzys DPS, but instead to lower Sorcs DPS.

1. Then they should post what they mean eh? And who knows, maybe that is what they meant, in which case I wouldn't be pedantic.

2. Well Pallys do offer more utility than albions other main tank the Armsman, but there are plenty of flaws with the class. I love my Pally, I know whats good about him, but also I know where he falls down. Some of this is an integral part of the character, some of it is a result of mythic not knowing how to balance abilities. As we well know.

3. Well considering that Theurgs and Sorcs seem to be FOTM and have been for a while now, I'd say that either people are overlooking the virtues of the wizzy, or the class needs some love? Maybe extra DPS isn't the answer, maybe more abilities are, I dunno. However I don't think a sorc nerf is the answer. A general caster vs caster vs melee rebalancing is.

But mythic seems to trapped in an ever spiralling circuit of "Nerf this", "buff that." I don't think that casters need less DPS (certainly shouldn't be increased though), but I do think that they need less defence against melee characters and that melee characters should have more ways of defending themselves against caster attack.

 

[NeonBlue]

31 Body, 44 Mind sorc
47 Dark, 26 Sup SM
...........

You missed a few

SM

50% Body Debuff
30% Spirit Debuff
30% Energy Debuff
Point Blank AoE MezZ
LT 90% HP return

Sorc

15% Heat Debuff
15% Matter Debuff
15% Cold Debuff
LT 60% return

hmm i was under the assumption..that ALL instant debuff spells either did or didnt break mezz?...seems silly to me that some would and some wouldnt

Been awhile since i played my sorc but am pretty sure 1 of my instant debuffs DID break mezz..but cant remember so dont quote me on that

Also u mention if a sorc charms a healer pet?...lol the healer pets are very RARE...and for them to heal they have to be on passive...and most sorcs will get a pet for interruption purpose and therefore will send them into attack. So most good Sorcs will pick a tanking pet or a caster....not a healer

Oh and lets not forget that the Sorcs matter line is pointless/useless
I wouldnt call any line on the SM useless

But ur trying to compare 2 different classes with 2 different purposes...
Sorc being main mezzer for its realm...and Dark SM being a debuffer/nuker and backup mezzer.

Also the main fact as i see it...that people are whining because the Sorcs baseline LT is slightly higher than the SM's spec LT....what the SM may lack in dmg (very little difference)...they make up in for HP return and power cost...so over a period of time the SM will do more dmg because they will able to cast more spells and also get healed ALOT more for their power

Either way i dont think it makes the Sorc overpowered and i think its silly "crying nerf"

 

[Kokelimonkelmedisin]

But ur trying to compare 2 different classes with 2 different purposes...
Sorc being main mezzer for its realm...

excatly the reason why ppl are complaining about the DAMMAGE they do.

Also the main fact as i see it...that people are whining because the Sorcs baseline LT is slightly higher than the SM's spec LT....what the SM may lack in dmg (very little difference)...they make up in for HP return and power cost...so over a period of time the SM will do more dmg because they will able to cast more spells and also get healed ALOT more for their power

Either way i dont think it makes the Sorc overpowered and i think its silly "crying nerf"

you are the silly one here buddy.

Oh and lets not forget that the Sorcs matter line is pointless/useless
I wouldnt call any line on the SM useless

one word... Summoning..

 

[Gamah]

you mean like Shamen getting AOE disease?

does spec effect on/off baseline spells?

Shaman aoe Disease is in spec line ... Cave magic

 

[NeonBlue]

you are the silly one here buddy

really and whys that then?...just because u dont agree? or u cant see the bigger picture ?

i would prefer any day to take a 90% HP return over the slight dmg increase Sorcs get

one word... Summoning..

isnt usless...compared to the matter line...Summoning line is good in PvE and to a degree has it uses in RvR


but otherwise thanks for ur informative post...its been noted

 

[Chilly]

Shammy AoE disease is baseline according to the camelot herald spell lists, its the insta pbaoe disease that is cave spec. This is all assuming the spell lists im reading are correct, of course.

 

[Gamah]

Shammy AoE disease is baseline according to the camelot herald spell lists, its the insta pbaoe disease that is cave spec. This is all assuming the spell lists im reading are correct, of course.

Yes your correct I thought he was talking about insta nm

 

[Zapsi]

Oh and lets not forget that the Sorcs matter line is pointless/useless
I wouldnt call any line on the SM useless





"

Summoning spec on SM is very uber yes

 

[Ormorof]

Summoning spec on SM is very uber yes

 

[Pin]

Some observations...

1. The mortal peril DD damage calculator is garbage. Any statements referencing this as a source, or using 'knowledge' assumed from it, are equally full of crap. I've been meaning to put together something much more accurate myself for a while, but never seem to get the time.
2. After reading through most of that VN thread and this one, it's clear that some education systems around the world really need more funding.

...

3. Lifetaps do more damage per delve than DDs. The difference is (maybe strangely) related to the % return on the lifetap. i.e. the 60% alb mage level 50 baseline lifetap has a 6% bonus to damage above delve, whereas a 90% return level 47 dark sm spec lifetap has a 9% bonus, and the proc on the level 44 reaver flexible style Cobra (a 110% return lifetap) has an 11% bonus. This is something which has been the case for 'eternity' (in the DAoC sense, at least), and was put there to compensate for lifetaps being greatly inferior (due to the lower delves) if they do not heal you. Since lifetap lines had their delves increased, my opinion is that these bonuses should have been removed.
4. Speccing higher in a line you will do more damage than speccing lower:

Increasing spec from 1-10 you gain ~2% average damage per point, this decreases to the 0.8% range for 45-50, and 0.35% for 50+.

5. This means that on a strong target (such that you are not capping), the ranking for highest-damage single-target nuker (ignoring bolts for this discussion) in terms of dps is (assuming all 'non-spell-line factors' are equal - total spec, acuity, relics, RAs, resists, ToA, etc, etc):

Spiritmaster, using his level 47 spec lifetap - 79.8 DD/sec
Wizard, Runemaster, using level 47 spec DD - 78.4 DD/sec
Sorcerer, Cabalist, using level 50 base lifetap - 76.1 DD/sec
Cabalist, using level 45 spec lifetap - 75.9 DD/sec
Sorcerer, Theurgist, Eldritch, Enchanter, Mentalist, using level 45 spec DD - 74.8 DD/sec
Most other nukers, using level 50 base nukes - 69.0 DD/sec
Some nukers, using level 50 spec combo nukes (e.g. snare-nuke) - 59.8 DD/sec
...

NB: As being specced lower in the damage line will reduce the rankings,
e.g. dropping spec by 2 points as the nuke is 45 instead of 47 would reduce most spec-nukers to a 74.2 equiv.
dropping 15 points on a ~RR5 Mind Sorc using base lifetap would reduce to a ~70.8 equiv.
dropping 15 points on a ~RR5 caster using a baseline DD would reduce to a ~64.2 equiv.

6. If you are nuking a weak target (capping due to level, debuffs, resists, relics, ToA, etc), then the 'lifetap bonus' can be ignored and the comparison can be made purely on delve and speed:

Wizard, Runemaster, using level 47 spec DD - 78.4 DD/sec
Sorcerer, Theurgist, Eldritch, Enchanter, Mentalist, using level 45 spec DD - 74.8 DD/sec
Spiritmaster, using his level 47 spec lifetap - 73.2 DD/sec
Sorcerer, Cabalist, using level 50 base lifetap - 71.8 DD/sec
Cabalist, using level 45 spec lifetap - 69.6 DD/sec
Most other nukers, using level 50 base nukes - 69.0 DD/sec
Some nukers, using level 50 spec combo nukes (e.g. snare-nuke) - 59.8 DD/sec
...

Again, you can make further analysis on spec-level:
e.g. a Mind Sorcerer will be less likely to reach cap when nuking than a highly-specced nuker, etc.

7. I know far, far, far too much shit about this bloody game.

 

[Cami]

I wouldnt call any line on the SM useless

Oh yes, you're a clever one....

 

[NeonBlue]

Oh yes, you're a clever one....

u seem to forget not so long ago...all the complaints of Summoning SMs camping TG and nicking all the named mobs by focus pulling

and if u read above...i said they was mainly useful for PvE...with only limited use in RvR...comparing that to the sorcs matter line (which i was doing) then yes the summoning line is more useful

guess ur not so clever...otherwise u would read properly !

 

[Chilly]

Some observations...

...

7. I know far, far, far too much shit about this bloody game.

I suspect I know more pieces of information about daoc than i do about my degree subject, although you dont need to be intelligent to play daoc, you do need to be somewhat less dense to do a physics degree.

 

[Cami]

u seem to forget not so long ago...all the complaints of Summoning SMs camping TG and nicking all the named mobs by focus pulling

and if u read above...i said they was mainly useful for PvE...with only limited use in RvR...comparing that to the sorcs matter line (which i was doing) then yes the summoning line is more useful

guess ur not so clever...otherwise u would read properly !

I was the first summ sm on pryd - dont teach me. But you seem to forget summ is worth nothing now after they nerfed it. And no, not worth anything in PVE either.

 

[NeonBlue]

I was the first summ sm on pryd - dont teach me. But you seem to forget summ is worth nothing now after they nerfed it. And no, not worth anything in PVE either.

couldnt give a shit if u was the 1st or last...but here have a blue peter badge !

just because it doesnt work now so u cant farm ur "uber" drops..doesnt mean it never has

the sorc matter line...hasnt been worth jack since the game come out.

But like you said i cant teach you, but if ur looking for the "selective memory" class...its down the hall on the right

 

[Pin]

Actually, I'd like to retract this statement:

Again, you can make further analysis on spec-level:
e.g. a Mind Sorcerer will be less likely to reach cap when nuking than a highly-specced nuker, etc.

as a 44m/31b Sorc will be just as likely (approximately) to reach cap with the lifetap as a 45-specced nuker using a DD due to the 'lifetap bonus'.

Replace that example with a caster using a baseline DD in a low-specced line.

 

[Pin]

I suspect I know more pieces of information about daoc than i do about my degree subject, although you dont need to be intelligent to play daoc, you do need to be somewhat less dense to do a physics degree.

As I finished my masters 5 years ago and haven't looked at the stuff again, I'd definitely join you on that one.

 

[Zapsi]

couldnt give a shit if u was the 1st or last...but here have a blue peter badge !

just because it doesnt work now so u cant farm ur "uber" drops..doesnt mean it never has

the sorc matter line...hasnt been worth jack since the game come out.

But like you said i cant teach you, but if ur looking for the "selective memory" class...its down the hall on the right

Clueless

 

[Cami]

couldnt give a shit if u was the 1st or last...but here have a blue peter badge !

just because it doesnt work now so u cant farm ur "uber" drops..doesnt mean it never has

the sorc matter line...hasnt been worth jack since the game come out.

But like you said i cant teach you, but if ur looking for the "selective memory" class...its down the hall on the right

Listen up clever guy, i never said anything about sorc matter line, im just saying summ line is crap - and you dont agree.

Comprende?

 

[Jaapi]

7. I know far, far, far too much shit about this bloody game.

That sure is true, maybe even more that Mythic itself... which isn't suprising in the least.

 

[NeonBlue]

Listen up clever guy, i never said anything about sorc matter line, im just saying summ line is crap - and you dont agree.

Comprende?

correct to a degree

 

[Melachi]

5. This means that on a strong target (such that you are not capping), the ranking for highest-damage single-target nuker (ignoring bolts for this discussion) in terms of dps is (assuming all 'non-spell-line factors' are equal - total spec, acuity, relics, RAs, resists, ToA, etc, etc):

Spiritmaster, using his level 47 spec lifetap - 79.8 DD/sec
Wizard, Runemaster, using level 47 spec DD - 78.4 DD/sec
Sorcerer, Cabalist, using level 50 base lifetap - 76.1 DD/sec
Cabalist, using level 45 spec lifetap - 75.9 DD/sec
Sorcerer, Theurgist, Eldritch, Enchanter, Mentalist, using level 45 spec DD - 74.8 DD/sec
Most other nukers, using level 50 base nukes - 69.0 DD/sec
Some nukers, using level 50 spec combo nukes (e.g. snare-nuke) - 59.8 DD/sec
...

NB: As being specced lower in the damage line will reduce the rankings,
e.g. dropping spec by 2 points as the nuke is 45 instead of 47 would reduce most spec-nukers to a 74.2 equiv.
dropping 15 points on a ~RR5 Mind Sorc using base lifetap would reduce to a ~70.8 equiv.
dropping 15 points on a ~RR5 caster using a baseline DD would reduce to a ~64.2 equiv.

6. If you are nuking a weak target (capping due to level, debuffs, resists, relics, ToA, etc), then the 'lifetap bonus' can be ignored and the comparison can be made purely on delve and speed:

Wizard, Runemaster, using level 47 spec DD - 78.4 DD/sec
Sorcerer, Theurgist, Eldritch, Enchanter, Mentalist, using level 45 spec DD - 74.8 DD/sec
Spiritmaster, using his level 47 spec lifetap - 73.2 DD/sec
Sorcerer, Cabalist, using level 50 base lifetap - 71.8 DD/sec
Cabalist, using level 45 spec lifetap - 69.6 DD/sec
Most other nukers, using level 50 base nukes - 69.0 DD/sec
Some nukers, using level 50 spec combo nukes (e.g. snare-nuke) - 59.8 DD/sec
...

Again, you can make further analysis on spec-level:
e.g. a Mind Sorcerer will be less likely to reach cap when nuking than a highly-specced nuker, etc.

7. I know far, far, far too much shit about this bloody game.

Im not going to dispute you on this, but could you please provide the means to which you came to these figures Euro_Sceptic?

 

[Pin]

Im not going to dispute you on this, but could you please provide the means to which you came to these figures Euro_Sceptic?

which figures? the division of delve damage by delve speed? well. they're in the delve.
e.g. 179.5 / 2.6 = 69.0 DD/sec for baseline DDs...
or the bonus % for lifetaps? erm. go test it - I have.

 

[Danya]

Pin is Mr. Knowledge. :-o

 

[Melachi]

which figures? the division of delve damage by delve speed? well. they're in the delve.
e.g. 179.5 / 2.6 = 69.0 DD/sec for baseline DDs...
or the bonus % for lifetaps? erm. go test it - I have.

If youve tested it why didnt you factor those in?


Btw, you are Euro_Sceptic right?

 

[Pin]

If youve tested it why didnt you factor those in?


Btw, you are Euro_Sceptic right?

No. I'm PinStNeedles on VN, and don't actually post there typically - not once in 18 months, or something.

And what do you mean I didn't factor those in? They're in the numbers in my post.

 

[Melachi]

And what do you mean I didn't factor those in? They're in the numbers in my post.

The Lifetap bonus.

You wrote Sorc/Cabalist Baseline LT = 71.8

Thats just delve / cast speed like you said.

Wheres the lifetap bonus that you tested ?


RE Euro_Sceptic thing, you type exactly like him, and since you have an infil on excal like he does, i just assumed

 

[Pin]

The Lifetap bonus.

You wrote Sorc/Cabalist Baseline LT = 71.8

Thats just delve / cast speed like you said.

Wheres the lifetap bonus that you tested ?

read what you quoted - i.e. point 5 vs point 6.

5 is nuking a tough target - not capping, therefore you get the bonus = 76.1
6 is nuking a soft target - capping, therefore you don't have any bonus (the bonus doesn't increase cap) = 71.8

RE Euro_Sceptic thing, you type exactly like him, and since you have an infil on excal like he does, i just assumed

No idea who that is, as I only even look at VN nowadays when a thread such as this references it and haven't seen any of his posts... And not played my Inf for 18 months, or so.

 

[Pin]

I should maybe make clear (especially if you are wanting to continue debates on the subject) that both cases should be considered, as in some cases you'll be nuking a tough target and lifetaps will fare comparatively better than DDs, and sometimes a soft target and the lifetaps will fare comparatively worse.

And also, the definition of 'soft' is a bit loose nowadays. i.e. in 1.69, running with 25% resist pierce and some relics, every target is soft, whether or not they have been resist-debuffed.