Israel/Palestine (Conflict to more Conflicts)

[Scouse]

Hamas knew what the response would be too.

If Hamas does nothing, Israel continues to rape, murder and pillage anyway. What's Hamas got to lose?

And remember, Hamas only formed in, what, the late 80's? If you make an Islamic prison camp out of a subsection of your own population and rape, murder, pillage and steal, have no desire for peace, then Hamas is, inevitably, what you get.

But either way - what's your point? Israel's killing a load of innocents. It's actions are a machine for more Hamas. You're acting like a prison population has a higher moral duty to act with restraint than the state that owns the prison.

One is an oppressed bunch of cunts (mixed in with millions of (oppressed) innocents), the other bunch of cunts are the oppressors (who doesn't give a fuck about the innocents, despite their moral and legal requirement to do so).

 

[Scouse]

Self-governing:

Before the war, about 20,000 patients a year sought permits from Israel to leave the Gaza Strip for healthcare, many of them requiring repeat trips across the border. Almost a third are children. Israel approved about 63% of these medical exit applications in 2022, according to the WHO

 

[Wij]

Self-governing:

The Israeli border?

 

[Wij]

If Hamas does nothing, Israel continues to rape, murder and pillage anyway. What's Hamas got to lose?

And remember, Hamas only formed in, what, the late 80's? If you make an Islamic prison camp out of a subsection of your own population and rape, murder, pillage and steal, have no desire for peace, then Hamas is, inevitably, what you get.

But either way - what's your point? Israel's killing a load of innocents. It's actions are a machine for more Hamas. You're acting like a prison population has a higher moral duty to act with restraint than the state that owns the prison.

One is an oppressed bunch of cunts (mixed in with millions of (oppressed) innocents), the other bunch of cunts are the oppressors (who doesn't give a fuck about the innocents, despite their moral and legal requirement to do so).

My point was that Hamas can't be negotiated with and won't stop. Their sky fairy instructs them to kill all Jews. Not just because of their actions since 1948. Because of made up things. The same things Hitler believed.

The only thing that will stop them (until they find a new cause) is the eradication of all Jews in the Middle East. Tell me how to negotiate with that.

 

[Scouse]

The Israeli border?

The sea?

The ex Israeli Attorney General (and loads of others) says your view is wrong, and I'm inclined to trust him.

 

[Scouse]

My point was that Hamas can't be negotiated with and won't stop.

Same shit was said of the IRA.

If the Israeli's climbed down off their sky-fairy-inspired demand for a land, slap bang in the centre of all the major religion's most sacred places, that's for jews and ONLY for jews, offered single-state secular government then they'd cut the balls off Hamas. (Instead of turbo-charging them like they're doing right now).

That's a practical reality. If it was offered, the non-hamas civilians in Gaza would probably kill the Hamas fighters themselves.

 

[Wij]

Same shit was said of the IRA.

If the Israeli's climbed down off their sky-fairy-inspired demand for a land, slap bang in the centre of all the major religion's most sacred places, that's for jews and ONLY for jews, offered single-state secular government then they'd cut the balls off Hamas. (Instead of turbo-charging them like they're doing right now).

That's a practical reality. If it was offered, the non-hamas civilians in Gaza would probably kill the Hamas fighters themselves.

I've a lot of sympathy for the view that Ireland should have been united and that the British have always treated the Irish like shit. That doesn't mean I have any sympathy for the provisional IRA or that they helped Irish people.

Why would Jews basically give themselves up to the mercy of Arabs like that? Jewish people won't forget that after the UN voted for them to have some of the land in the Middle East for themselves (and some for Arabs) the surrounding Arab states decided to invade to ensure that didn't happen and that all the land would be split between existing Arab states (Egypt, Syria and Transjordan), none for 'Palestinians'. Jews have seen what has happened to Jews in the rest of the former Ottoman Empire.

You are making an unrealistic demand for Jews to give up all security and hope things work out, which they won't. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. Jews will never accept a solution that doesn't keep them in some defined area with a guaranteed majority population.

On the other hand Hamas doesn't rely on support of Gazan people for its existence anyway. It relies on Iran. Iran doesn't care about the well-being of Palestinian Arabs. It's not an Arab country. It hates Arabs. It is fighting a religious war against Jews and the west. That wouldn't stop even if you persuaded Isreal to stop existing somehow.

 

[Scouse]

You're repeating an argument I've already answered. Secular government, security guaranteed by us for as long as it's needed, no right of return. I've already given you the numbers on demographics.

Your/Israel's idea is inherently unjust. It's simply the creation of another religious "caliphate" and comes with all of the violent idiocy that is inherent to organising countries down religious lines.

It is the existence of Israel in this form that is the root cause of the current problems.

You have no solution to this that doesn't simply continue the current atrocities down the ages (until one side or the other is dead.)

The existence of religious-based countries should offend your morality because their very existence means the creation of these problems.

Any progressive should be pushing for a more advanced form of government - secular. Instead of religious government right out of the Middle Ages.

 

[Scouse]

Iran doesn't care about the well-being of Palestinian Arabs. It's not an Arab country. It hates Arabs. It is fighting a religious war against Jews and the west. That wouldn't stop even if you persuaded Isreal to stop existing somehow.

I agree. I really do. But Israel is also fighting a religious war - which the existence of Iran doesn't make valid.

We need to fix Israel. Over the next century it needs to become a secular beacon of light - a demonstration that different religions can coexist.

We shouldn't be entrenching decades more violence and injustice.

 

[Wij]

You're repeating an argument I've already answered. Secular government, security guaranteed by us for as long as it's needed, no right of return. I've already given you the numbers on demographics.

Your/Israel's idea is inherently unjust. It's simply the creation of another religious "caliphate" and comes with all of the violent idiocy that is inherent to organising countries down religious lines.

It is the existence of Israel in this form that is the root cause of the current problems.

You have no solution to this that doesn't simply continue the current atrocities down the ages (until one side or the other is dead.)

The existence of religious-based countries should offend your morality because their very existence means the creation of these problems.

Any progressive should be pushing for a more advanced form of government - secular. Instead of religious government right out of the Middle Ages.

I never said I had a solution. Just that your solution wouldn't be accepted by either side. Also that you seem to view being cautious because of past mistreatment and distrust as a rational response for Arabs but as unjust bias for Jews.

 

[Wij]

We need to fix Israel. Over the next century it needs to become a secular beacon of light - a demonstration that different religions can coexist.

I also don't get why you are absolutely determined to 'fix' Israel but never utter a peep about fixing Syria, Iran etc. Why is it Jews who have to lead the way? Surely you should advocate for all to be fixed equally?

 

[Scouse]

.

I also don't get why you are absolutely determined to 'fix' Israel but never utter a peep about fixing Syria, Iran etc. Why is it Jews who have to lead the way? Surely you should advocate for all to be fixed equally?

This is whataboutism @Wij

We're supporting Israel. We helped setup the state as it is. We have a moral responsibility to help fix the issues - and that shouldn't be holding a different set of moral values that will end up with us turning a blind eye to genocide, again.

Iran, Syria? Of course we should be trying to fix them. But last I looked we weren't propping them up militarily and the existence of other problems should not prevent us from doing the right thing.

 

[Embattle]

One massacre of people doesn't excuse another.

I also don't get why you are absolutely determined to 'fix' Israel but never utter a peep about fixing Syria, Iran etc. Why is it Jews who have to lead the way? Surely you should advocate for all to be fixed equally?

I think most people would agree those countries undoubtedly need 'fixing' but then the west isn't the arms supplier to any of them, so we just use weak sanctions.

 

[Wij]

.

This is whataboutism @Wij

We're supporting Israel. We helped setup the state as it is. We have a moral responsibility to help fix the issues - and that shouldn't be holding a different set of moral values that will end up with us turning a blind eye to genocide, again.

Iran, Syria? Of course we should be trying to fix them. But last I looked we weren't propping them up militarily and the existence of other problems should not prevent us from doing the right thing.

No, that's exactly the point I wanted you to make. You hold Israel to a higher standard because it is western-backed whereas the other regimes are Russian-backed.

 

[Scouse]

No, that's exactly the point I wanted you to make. You hold Israel to a higher standard because it is western-backed whereas the other regimes are Russian-backed.

Wrong. Completely wrong. I want to hold Israel to the correct standard. Everyone to the correct standard.

And because we back Israel, we've both the moral responsibility and enhanced opportunities to try to make that happen.

But you go "bwah Russia" - and give Israel a free ride. Ditching all morality and using two-wrongs-make-a-right mathematics. It doesn't wash. You're an apologist for a murderous state that we CAN do something about - whilst pointing at other murderous states and going "these exist, why do we have to do anything about Israel".

It's self-evident why we have to do something about Israel. Because A) we can and B) its a religious caliphate and an institutionally murderous criminal rapist wanker.

 

[Scouse]

Israel's actions are fuel for this utterly disgusting Islamic fire.

If Israel cares about the security of jews more than it cares about setting up it's own caliphate, then it needs secular reformation.

Do what you will in the meantime until we reach you,” the jihadi continues. “Then we will charge you ten-fold for the crimes you have committed against the Palestinian people

It's a horrible threat that I'm fully cogniscant of @Wij. But Israel IS committing crimes against the palestinian people. It's an excuse that Islamists don't need, but they'll take it.

And because they've got that excuse it weakens necessary western resistance against Islam in our countries. The actions of Israel and it's governmental makeup makes the UK less safe. It helps enable a narrative of "oh poor muslims, surrounded by 'islamophobia'" - and the creation of hate-speech laws in the uk. As if Islam is a race that needs protection, not the primary jihadi religion of our time.

We need to be united in the face of all religious bigotry. Not prop up the caliphates of our choice and ditch our morality out of misplaced guilt.

 

[Wij]

Wrong. Completely wrong. I want to hold Israel to the correct standard. Everyone to the correct standard.

And because we back Israel, we've both the moral responsibility and enhanced opportunities to try to make that happen.

But you go "bwah Russia" - and give Israel a free ride. Ditching all morality and using two-wrongs-make-a-right mathematics. It doesn't wash. You're an apologist for a murderous state that we CAN do something about - whilst pointing at other murderous states and going "these exist, why do we have to do anything about Israel".

It's self-evident why we have to do something about Israel. Because A) we can and B) its a religious caliphate and an institutionally murderous criminal rapist wanker.

Not wrong. It explains why you constantly talk about demolishing Israel (long before this thread) but never about demolishing other religious apartheid regimes. I'm just taking you at your word.

I am not saying that either is right or that any of them deserves to be smashed first. I'm not saying it excuses anything. That's just putting words in my mouth. Just that you bang on about Israel all the time and Iran never because one is western-backed and the other is Russian-backed.

That's all I'm saying. I'm not apologising for anyone or saying two-wrongs make a right.

 

[Scouse]

How does ISIS feel about Hamas?

We will uproot the state of the Jews (Israel) and you and Fatah ... and all of the secularists are nothing and you will be over-run by our creeping multitudes

Religion is no basis for anything but pain.

 

[Scouse]

Not wrong. It explains why you constantly talk about demolishing Israel (long before this thread) but never about demolishing other religious apartheid regimes. I'm just taking you at your word.

Horse shit whataboutism.

Israel is something we CAN do something about but we choose not to. Iran is something we have policy in place for but we don't have the levers that we do with Israel.

Iran never because one is western-backed and the other is Russian-backed.

You're the one obsessed with Russia, so if you see what I'm saying through your Russian-glasses then there's no hope. I'm not a backer or lover of Russia. I am a supporter of justice and equality - nothing more.

Right now, Israel is committing crimes against humanity. That, and only that, is why the focus is rightly on that abhorrent piece of shit state.

 

[Wij]

How does ISIS feel about Hamas?



Religion is no basis for anything but pain.

I agree.

But what about Jews as an ethnicity? Many of the right-wing bigots in Israel justify their beliefs as sky-fairy commands, the same as ISIS and Hamas.

But others just want a safe home for Jews as an ethnicity, a people. Is that also wrong?

 

[Wij]

Horse shit whataboutism.

Israel is something we CAN do something about but we choose not to. Iran is something we have policy in place for but we don't have the levers that we do with Israel.

Literally making my point.

 

[Scouse]

But what about Jews as an ethnicity?

Manufactured bullshit. But lets pretend I accept that jew is an 'ethnic group' rather than a collection of people who roughly follow judaeism (I mean, it really isn't but whatever):

There's lots of different ethnicities in the UK. We rub along OK. Because we have secular government and theoretical equality for all - regardless of sex, ethnicity, gender penguin, whatever.

Israel wants to protect jews as an ethnicity? Then they need secular government. Because protecting jews, and only jews, as an ethnicity is like protecting white people and not black people.

So Israel is a racist piece of shit that can get in a hole.


Thanks for making your blind spot so clear and obvious to all @Wij. We know Israel is a racist piece of shit (lets not talk about how they treat black jews eh? Maybe they're the wrong 'ethnicity'.).

 

[Scouse]

Ethiopian Jews are 'ruining the Zionist dream'

Comment: Israel aims to create and maintain a state for white Jews only, writes CJ Werleman.

www.newarab.com

Racist apartheid country that doesn't want the "African Menace" anywhere near the "diaspora".

Fucking lol. The country is a joke.

 

[Scouse]

From David Sheen, investigative journalist, writes for Haaretz:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L8ZVwfdRjE

 

[Wij]

Manufactured bullshit. But lets pretend I accept that jew is an 'ethnic group' rather than a collection of people who roughly follow judaeism (I mean, it really isn't but whatever):

There's lots of different ethnicities in the UK. We rub along OK. Because we have secular government and theoretical equality for all - regardless of sex, ethnicity, gender penguin, whatever.

Israel wants to protect jews as an ethnicity? Then they need secular government. Because protecting jews, and only jews, as an ethnicity is like protecting white people and not black people.

So Israel is a racist piece of shit that can get in a hole.


Thanks for making your blind spot so clear and obvious to all @Wij. We know Israel is a racist piece of shit (lets not talk about how they treat black jews eh? Maybe they're the wrong 'ethnicity'.).

So again. If Israel is an ethnocracy it must be sorted because we have leverage. But other ethnocracies in the region don't because we don't have leverage? I mean, fair enough if that's the argument. Deal with what we can.

But you can't see that Jews giving up their 'security blanket' in a region where they are actively discriminated against by all their neighbours, might not seem like an appealing prospect?

You are still proposing forcing a new settlement onto both Arabs and Jews, that neither wants. Jews for the reasons above. Palestinian Arabs because right to return would be a red-line.

I'm not pretending that I have any just and fair solution myself. Or that the status quo is just and fair. I'm just pointing out that your solution won't be accepted by religious / ethno dickheads on both sides. Not just Israel's.

 

[Wij]

Oh, and obviously Roger Waters doesn’t discount the idea that it might all have been the fault of the Jews. How surprising


View: https://twitter.com/rollingstone/status/1722102896211493146?s=61&t=iv1E1O7hVRuRm0TFdyUzyw

 

[Scouse]

You are still proposing forcing a new settlement onto both Arabs and Jews, that neither wants. Jews for the reasons above. Palestinian Arabs because right to return would be a red-line.

Disagree. The majority of Arabs would leap at it, even if it meant taking picks to 'fix' Hamas themselves.

And yes. It must be forced. And it can be. Just like we forced the creation of the state in the first place - compounding mistake after mistake.

Single-state secular roadmap with externally-guaranteed security needs drawing up and implementing.

The alternative is either genocide + caliphate or the continued existence of Israeli-run concentration camps.

 

[Scouse]

Oh, and obviously Roger Waters doesn’t discount the idea that it might all have been the fault of Israel

FTFY (and he said he "didn't know")

And yet another pointless sideshow where we talk about celebrity opinion rather than ongoing war-crime.

Meanwhile there's 50,000 pregnant women in Gaza who've no idea where they're going to give birth.

Fun time for expectant mum's eh? But what's poor poor Israel to do?

 

[DaGaffer]

Disagree. The majority of Arabs would leap at it, even if it meant taking picks to 'fix' Hamas themselves.

And yes. It must be forced. And it can be. Just like we forced the creation of the state in the first place - compounding mistake after mistake.

Single-state secular roadmap with externally-guaranteed security needs drawing up and implementing.

The alternative is either genocide + caliphate or the continued existence of Israeli-run concentration camps.

You do understand that a single state secular democracy can vote itself into any form of government it likes right? Or did the Arab Spring pass you by?

What you want isn't going to happen because turkeys don't vote for Christmas and the only way to deliver your "solution" is at the point of a gun which would then have to be policed by outsiders for enternity.

 

[Scouse]

You do understand that a single state secular democracy can vote itself into any form of government it likes right? Or did the Arab Spring pass you by?

What you want isn't going to happen because turkeys don't vote for Christmas and the only way to deliver your "solution" is at the point of a gun which would then have to be policed by outsiders for enternity.

Already covered all of these points in this thread. Including the demographic question.

I said policed by outsiders until the religious bigotry dies out. Yep, at the point of our gun is the least we can do for creating this problem.

Post that? Well US is doing a good job of maintaining it's constitution so far. And I suspect by the time we could leave then things will have moved on in the other caliphates.

Suggest an alternative that doesn't end in either caliphate + genocide or concentration camps for an eternity and I'd be all ears.

As it stands - the west should not continue to be functional supporters of criminal regimes. There is no excuse for it. Israel is strengthening Iran's hand. Death to the west is becoming an easier chant whilst we blindly support Israel.

Our support, ethically, cannot continue to be blind.

Must not.