Israel/Palestine (Conflict to more Conflicts)

[Wij]

5% of water requirements are being met. Children under threat of death by dehydration.

Lack of clean drinking water for 95% of people in Gaza threatens health crisis

Polluted water supplies and salty groundwater are making people ill, with UN warning of threat of child deaths from dehydration

www.theguardian.com

Oh. And water needs not being met for over fifteen years before this conflict.

But them uppity arabs eh? Why don't they just shut the fuck up whilst their government starves, rapes, herds and murders them.

I explicitly said I don’t agree with Israel’s actual response. Just that some response is inevitable given what happened on October 7th.

Given that Gaza has been self governing though for more than 15 years do you not think that the lack of water provision in Gaza is at least partly the responsibility of Hamas who have been given humanitarian aid for that purpose?

 

[Wij]

Was going to add: you see "sides" in a conflict.

That's not how it is. How it really is is a racist government treating a section of it's own population differently.

That's the root cause of this. And the only route to real peace is equal rights for all.

I agree with you on the middle sentence in relation to the West Bank. It is shitty. Israel should have negotiated to give it up and allow Arabs to govern themselves there. 100%. I’d even say that Israel should remove all settlers but if the Palestinians were willing to trade land instead then that’s their choice. Not mine.

Gaza is not the same though. Israel pulled out. They are not Israel’s population. Israel occupied it from 67 to 2005 after capturing it from Egypt. It does not occupy it any more. It controls its own border with Gaza, as is its right. As Egypt does too. Egypt doesn’t want it back but Hamas doesn’t want to allow it to become a proper country because they aren’t interested in that.

 

[Scouse]

The Attorney General of Israel says your assessment is wrong. Gaza is 100% Israel.

He's explicitly said your assesmemt amounts to an Israeli lie. So if you continue to state that as your position then there's nothing else to say.

The one state secular solution is the only just solution. And better minds and stronger authorities than ours are fully behind that so painting it as some sort of scouse ideology is disingenuous.

Israel is lying about a two state peace process. The whole Israeli project is set up to prevent a two state solution. It's a cover for continued atrocity and apartheid and, if it's allowed to continue, genocide.

 

[Wij]

Benyair is one former AG. Not the current one. And he favours a two state solution interestingly.

Who sets the laws in Gaza? And more to the point who collects taxes and international aid and has responsibility to provide civilian infrastructure to Gazans, in particular, desalinisation plants and pipes? Hamas, as the government has that responsibility.

Olmert and Abbas were close to agreeing a solution that would create a Palestinian state, alongside an Israeli one. If that had achieved relative peace, who are you to tell Palestinians it’s not acceptable?

Instead you pretend that offering a one state solution, to Hamas, who aren’t interested unless all Jews are expelled, is somehow a logical next step from where we are now.

Anyway, David Lammy’s thoughts, views his, not mine:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/04/labour-will-work-for-a-palestinian-state

 

[Scouse]

14 israeli children were reported to have been victims of the 7th October attacks which killed 1400 Israelis.

horrible as it is, that statistic shows that hamas' fighters showed restraint.

Shortly Israel will have murdered 4000 children in Gaza - makimg up 40% of the dead.

Gaza’s children face catastrophe as death toll nears 4,000, UN warns

Israeli bombs hit school being used as a shelter while warning comes that children form 40% of fatalities

www.theguardian.com

Apparently 'numbers matter'. But for me, I still think principles and laws are more illustrative.

What the combination of these numbers and the lack of principles shown illustrate is the fact that the Palestinian prison population are tortured and oppressed and that the criminal state of Israel has no desire to follow any rules other than it sets itself and needs to be brought to heel by the international community.

 

[Scouse]

Interesting read:

The U.S. Government Had Nelson Mandela on Terrorist Watch Lists Until 2008. Here's Why

On the centennial of Nelson Mandela's birth, he is remembered as a symbol of peace—but he was on the U.S. terror watch list until 2008

time.com

 

[Wij]

horrible as it is, that statistic shows that hamas' fighters showed restraint.

Seriously?

 

[Scouse]

Seriously?

Compared to Israel? Absolutely.

 

[Wij]

Compared to Israel? Absolutely.

it's not a comparison though. Seriously sick to suggest the perpetrators of a massacre showed 'restraint'. Get a grip.

 

[Scouse]

Sicker than a cabinet minister saying there are no innocent civilians in Gaza, that nuclear strikes could be a solution and that anyone waving a palestinian flag should be wiped from the earth?

Or sicker than apologism for deliberate child killings on a massive scale?

 

[Wij]

Sicker than a cabinet minister saying there are no innocent civilians in Gaza, that nuclear strikes could be a solution and that anyone waving a palestinian flag should be wiped from the earth?

Or sicker than apologism for deliberate child killings on a massive scale?

It’s not a comparison. This is not a moral argument you are making. The existence of other bad things does not make a bad thing any less bad or it’s perpetrators any less bad.

Saying Hamas exercised restraint in the massacre of 1,400 people, mainly civilians is not justified because other terrible things happen. It’s like saying Jimmy Savile exercised restraInt because other kiddie fiddlers kill their victims and are therefore worse.

You can’t expect to get away with saying shitty stuff and then justify it by pointing out other atrocities that no one else is attempting to minimise.

 

[Scouse]

It’s not a comparison. This is not a moral argument you are making. The existence of other bad things does not make a bad thing any less bad or it’s perpetrators any less bad.

Bollocks. You absolutely can make a comparison. Completely valid to do so.

I explicitly stated that what Hamas did was horrific. And it is.

But what Israel is up to right now is absolutely worse than what Hamas did. Israel is slaughtering a prison population. It's killed 4000 children so far alongside the other death and what it's doing to 2.3 million others. It's perfectly valid to make that comparison.

It's illegal, it's abhorent and it's deliberate. The US is asking Israel to use smaller munitions so collateral damage is minimised, and so far Israel is refusing. This is absolutely about punishing the palestinians, not "ending terrorism".

 

[Wij]

Bollocks. You absolutely can make a comparison. Completely valid to do so.

I explicitly stated that what Hamas did was horrific. And it is.

But what Israel is up to right now is absolutely worse than what Hamas did. Israel is slaughtering a prison population. It's killed 4000 children so far alongside the other death and what it's doing to 2.3 million others. It's perfectly valid to make that comparison.

It's illegal, it's abhorent and it's deliberate. The US is asking Israel to use smaller munitions so collateral damage is minimised, and so far Israel is refusing. This is absolutely about punishing the palestinians, not "ending terrorism".

Making a comparison does not mean Hamas showed restraint.

I could point out that Putin and Assad have killed over half a million Arabs in Syria and then claim that shows the IDF is showing restraint. It would be bollocks obviously.

 

[Scouse]

Making a comparison does not mean Hamas showed restraint.

They didn't set out to target children. 40% of everyone Israel is killing are kids. For every child that died in Hamas' raid, Israel has killed nearly three hundred. Israel knows that and doesn't care.

It doesn't condone Hamas. Other than one of comparison the point doesn't revolve around them (and again - explicitly condemned their action). I'm making a statement that what Israel is doing is an order of magnitude worse. Because it is.

 

[Wij]

They didn't set out to target children. 40% of everyone Israel is killing are kids. For every child that died in Hamas' raid, Israel has killed nearly three hundred. Israel knows that and doesn't care.

It doesn't condone Hamas. Other than one of comparison the point doesn't revolve around them (and again - explicitly condemned their action). I'm making a statement that what Israel is doing is an order of magnitude worse. Because it is.

Whether it is worse or not has no bearing on whether Hamas ‘showed restraint’. I don’t know how many times you need this simple moral fact pointed out to you.

 

[Scouse]

Whether it is worse or not has no bearing on whether Hamas ‘showed restraint’. I don’t know how many times you need this simple moral fact pointed out to you.

I can see you've taken offence at the idea that one group committing an atrocity did something different from another group. But commenting on that difference isn't a "moral" fact. It's just an assessment of what has happened and what is (still) happening.

There IS a scale @Wij. And, as you've said, numbers are important. Israel is both qualitatively and quantitatively the bigger of two evils here - and they're still at it.

What's that saying about one man being a murderer, but when a state carries out mass murder, that's somehow OK?

 

[Wij]

I can see you've taken offence at the idea that one group committing an atrocity did something different from another group. But commenting on that difference isn't a "moral" fact. It's just an assessment of what has happened and what is (still) happening.

There IS a scale @Wij. And, as you've said, numbers are important. Israel is both qualitatively and quantitatively the bigger of two evils here - and they're still at it.

What's that saying about one man being a murderer, but when a state carries out mass murder, that's somehow OK?

The point -> .








o <- You
/|\
/\

 

[Scouse]

Instead of drawing diagrams tell me how it's a "moral" fact? Tell me exactly how I'm wrong in my assessment?

Edit: Although thanks for drawing me skinny.

 

[Wij]

Look 4 posts up. That’s it. End of story. There is nothing further to be explained. If someone else wiped out the entire universe it would not have the slightest bearing on whether Hamas ‘showed restraint’.

Going to bed.

 

[Scouse]

Statement by Principals of the Inter-Agency Standing Committee, on the situation in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory, "We need an immediate humanitarian ceasefire" - occupied Palestinian territory

News and Press Release in English on occupied Palestinian territory about Peacekeeping and Peacebuilding, Protection and Human Rights and more; published on 5 Nov 2023 by IASC

reliefweb.int

 

[DaGaffer]

Compared to Israel? Absolutely.

Oh FFS. Hamas killed 1400 because they could only kill 1400 with the tools and time at their disposal (and getting sidetracked by all the raping). Trying to claim this figure was because of "restraint" is fucking ludicrous.

I've stayed out of this mostly because I honestly don't care about either side anymore, but I couldn't let that absolute horseshit go by.

FWIW Israel are making a huge strategic mistake because this whole thing is about perpetuating the idea of Hamas into the next generation and driving a wedge between Israeli/Sunni (e.g. Saudi Arabian) rapprochment, and Netanyahu can't respond any other way because of the whole "strong leader" schtick.

As to what the Israelis could have done instead? I genuinely have no idea as all options are terrible.

 

[Ormorof]

They didn't set out to target children. 40% of everyone Israel is killing are kids. For every child that died in Hamas' raid, Israel has killed nearly three hundred. Israel knows that and doesn't care.

It doesn't condone Hamas. Other than one of comparison the point doesn't revolve around them (and again - explicitly condemned their action). I'm making a statement that what Israel is doing is an order of magnitude worse. Because it is.

They literally set out to target children, babies murdered in their cribs

Your argument would be better suited for Israel, they are not deliberately targeting kids they are targeting everything

Either way what a dumb thing to say

 

[Scouse]

Trying to claim this figure was because of "restraint" is fucking ludicrous.

Not the 1400 figure, the fact that children made up 1% of the dead, whereas with Israel it's 40%. It was just to say that Hamas weren't going out of their way to kill kids otherwise that would have been much higher. Whereas Israel know's it's killing kids and isn't even responding to the US's request to use smaller bombs so the collateral damage of their "targetted" destruction is lower.

I agree if Hamas had the means that they'd have gone wild and the death toll would have been much much much higher. But I think the figures showed they largely avoided killing kids. That they drew a (really fucking shitty) line. One Israel isnt' even attempting to draw.

But even putting that idea forward is obviously triggering people, so...

I'm 100% with you on the rest of your post - most analysts don't believe that Israel's stated aim is even achievable. I think Netenyahu knows it, but then their aim isn't peace.

But this:

As to what the Israelis could have done instead? I genuinely have no idea as all options are terrible.

They could move to secular government. They just don't want to - they'd rather kill palestinians. But that option is the opposite of terrible.

 

[Scouse]

They literally set out to target children, babies murdered in their cribs

14 - and that's everyone under the age of adulthood.

If they set out to target children, they'd have done a better job.

Israel, on the other hand, won't restrict it's type of munitions at the request of it's staunchest ally. So the collateral damage is deliberate. Israel have bombed more hospitals than kids they've lost.

 

[caLLous]

They did as much damage as they could (to whoever they encountered) and took as many hostages as they could in the time they had. To say they showed restraint and avoided killing children is outrageous, they tied children up and set them on fire ffs.

'Top secret' Hamas documents show that terrorists intentionally targeted elementary schools and a youth center

Maps and documents recovered from the bodies of Hamas attackers reveal a coordinated plan to target children and take hostages inside an Israeli village near Gaza.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Scouse]

UN Secretary General "Gaza is becoming a graveyard for children".

 

[Scouse]

Israel’s attempt to destroy Hamas will breed more radicalisation, UN expert says

Francesca Albanese says crisis is result of failing to heed concerns about Israel’s repression of Palestinian human rights

www.theguardian.com

 

[Wij]

Israel’s attempt to destroy Hamas will breed more radicalisation, UN expert says

Francesca Albanese says crisis is result of failing to heed concerns about Israel’s repression of Palestinian human rights

www.theguardian.com

Well duh, that’s the idea:

When Hamas Tells You Who They Are, Believe Them

The terrorist group is clear about its goals and tactics. Why do so many in the West still misunderstand it?

plus.thebulwark.com

 

[Scouse]

Well duh, that’s the idea:

That's Israel's idea? It might be.

Lets pop Hamas firmly in "basket case" where it belongs (and where it's been put firmly all thread*). Why is Israel continuing on a course of action it knows is futile? That it knows is going to kill any idea of lasting peace.

Oh. Wait.

 

[Wij]

That's Israel's idea? It might be.

Lets pop Hamas firmly in "basket case" where it belongs (and where it's been put firmly all thread*). Why is Israel continuing on a course of action it knows is futile? That it knows is going to kill any idea of lasting peace.

Oh. Wait.

Hamas knew what the response would be too. It doesn’t want peace. It’s an Islamist death cult that gives no more shit about the lives of Gazans than Netanyahu does.

It won’t enter negotiations and it won’t stop,