Israel/Palestine (Conflict to more Conflicts)

[Scouse]

That argument is full of factual innacuracies (at best) @Wij. I've already made my case very clearly on this. Your mate was wrong, however he felt. Israel runs an institutionally discriminatory system which is effectively apartheid - which is long established a crime against humanity. People are not equal - and of course they're not - it's a country run for members of a specific religion.

Which is a monumentally stupid idea. It's inherently discriminatory - and both history and the current abhorrent ongoing war crimes against a captive civilian population prove this undisputably.

We need to go in, we need to chuck the government out and we need to enforce a secular state on the country until the religious bigotry dies down. However long that takes.

Israel is NOT a proper democracy in any shape or form. Is it a country under siege by (incredibly powerful) muslim countries on all sides? Yes indeed. Would they kill all the jews in seconds given the slightest opportunity? Yes - I don't doubt it. But that reality doesn't make any sort of case for another non-secular religious-based society. The fundamental idea is flawed and can only lead to the sort of failed and disgusting state that we're propping up against all decent morality.

Enforced secularism and the continued protection of all of the population of Israel against the baying wolves is the ONLY just solution.

As for your whatabout arguments regarding other states - you're right. Jews don't last long in muslim countries. That doesn't give Israel any sort of moral right to put palestinians in concentration camps and rape, murder and pillage in a formal government-sponsored land-grab of the little they have remaining. All it does is enhance the moral imperative to visibly protect the rights of all.

Your numbers argument is laughable btw. Jews make up 74% of the Israeli population - and that's when you include the Gaza Strip and West Bank - at 7.1m in a country of 9.7 million. But regardless - we shouldn't give them any sort of vote on the future direction of their own country until they've proven they can run it responsibly. It's not a real democracy. It's a discriminatory facist state running concentration camps and killing an entire ethnic subsections of it's own population. It pretends that the arabs govern themselves, but they dont. Only in the context that they've allowed their prison camps to have a level of autonomy because they want to wash their hands of them.

Secular government, and continued staunch protection from the west against the baying muslim mob that would destroy them, conditional on them governing for all.

We should not continue to prop up another religious "caliphate" and allow it to continue to propagate it's bigotry and war crimes.

 

[Scouse]

Anyway, 3500 children dead so far.

Well done Israel.

 

[BloodOmen]

Anyway, 3500 children dead so far.

Well done Israel.

Allegedly. I don't believe any figures coming out of Hamas's mouthpiece, lots of propaganda stunts going on atm too.

 

[Jupitus]

Anyway, 3500 children dead so far.

Well done Israel.

Have I missed something here, genuine question. I am not on either 'side' of this debate given I don't really dabble in any political or religious disharmony, but didn't the Palestinians / HAMAS invade Israel and kill hundreds of innocent people thus triggering this whole, horrible scenario?

 

[Wij]

That argument is full of factual innacuracies (at best) @Wij. I've already made my case very clearly on this. Your mate was wrong, however he felt. Israel runs an institutionally discriminatory system which is effectively apartheid - which is long established a crime against humanity. People are not equal - and of course they're not - it's a country run for members of a specific religion.

Which is a monumentally stupid idea. It's inherently discriminatory - and both history and the current abhorrent ongoing war crimes against a captive civilian population prove this undisputably.

We need to go in, we need to chuck the government out and we need to enforce a secular state on the country until the religious bigotry dies down. However long that takes.

Israel is NOT a proper democracy in any shape or form. Is it a country under siege by (incredibly powerful) muslim countries on all sides? Yes indeed. Would they kill all the jews in seconds given the slightest opportunity? Yes - I don't doubt it. But that reality doesn't make any sort of case for another non-secular religious-based society. The fundamental idea is flawed and can only lead to the sort of failed and disgusting state that we're propping up against all decent morality.

Enforced secularism and the continued protection of all of the population of Israel against the baying wolves is the ONLY just solution.

As for your whatabout arguments regarding other states - you're right. Jews don't last long in muslim countries. That doesn't give Israel any sort of moral right to put palestinians in concentration camps and rape, murder and pillage in a formal government-sponsored land-grab of the little they have remaining. All it does is enhance the moral imperative to visibly protect the rights of all.

Your numbers argument is laughable btw. Jews make up 74% of the Israeli population - and that's when you include the Gaza Strip and West Bank - at 7.1m in a country of 9.7 million. But regardless - we shouldn't give them any sort of vote on the future direction of their own country until they've proven they can run it responsibly. It's not a real democracy. It's a discriminatory facist state running concentration camps and killing an entire ethnic subsections of it's own population. It pretends that the arabs govern themselves, but they dont. Only in the context that they've allowed their prison camps to have a level of autonomy because they want to wash their hands of them.

Secular government, and continued staunch protection from the west against the baying muslim mob that would destroy them, conditional on them governing for all.

We should not continue to prop up another religious "caliphate" and allow it to continue to propagate it's bigotry and war crimes.

I never said it justified Israel as it is now. I was just pointing out where it would lead if a democracy across the whole area with the descendants of those who left also being allowed back. No Jews in the Middle East.

Your solution is, well, not democracy. The west permanently enforcing their values on a nation thousands of miles away doesn’t seem like a workable long term solution either.

Not that I have a magic solution myself. I just don’t see your proposal being acceptable to anyone.

 

[Scouse]

Have I missed something here, genuine question. I am not on either 'side' of this debate given I don't really dabble in any political or religious disharmony, but didn't the Palestinians / HAMAS invade Israel and kill hundreds of innocent people thus triggering this whole, horrible scenario?

Hamas did a horrible horrible thing. Absolutely.

But not everyone in Gaza is Hamas. There's 2.3 million civilians in Gaza. Trapped in a camp they can't escape. And it's against all international laws to collectively punish a civilian population - which is what Israel is doing.

It's pretty simple really.

Add to that the history - Israels people (civilians and military) have been raping and murdering Palestinians for decades - to remove them from their lands and villages so they can steal their land. The people in the Gaza strip are in a concentration camp. They're not free. They're prisoners. It doesn't excuse the murder of civilians any more than the murder of civilians excuses one of the worlds best-armed states to slaughter trapped civilians. (And they are very well armed, by us and the US. Israel has ten times the number of tanks than the UK, for example.)

My objection is moral @Jupitus. The last time a state put a load of people in concentration camps and started murdering them the world stood by and did nothing. The very first treaty the United Nations ratified was sponsored by a Jew who lost 40 family members in the Holocaust. It was the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. "Never again" was the commitment.

Well it's happening yet again. On our watch. The United Nations has just voted overwhelmingly for a ceasefire. It's not binding, of course. We can't have democracy getting in the way of power. But it does lend a moral authority to the calls for a ceasefire.

The horrors committed by Hamas is no excuse for Israel to act like it is doing now - nor how it's been acting for decades. This isn't a "new moral conumdrum" @Jupitus. It's one we've already decided is wrong. It is to the West's shame that we stood by and let the Nazi's murder jews, poles, gypsies etc. We did nothing to prevent that.

We're doing nothing to prevent this Jupitus. And it's shameful and inexcusable.

 

[Scouse]

Your solution is, well, not democracy.

Clearly not. It's a one-state secular solution that can lead to democracy in the future once the religious bigotry has died, like it has in other secular states.

Right now Israel is not even close to a democracy. My solution is not initially a true democracy but it would still be a massive improvement.

As for acceptability? I've learned recently that my one-state secular solution was the one-state secular solution that apparently the PLO wanted. So there's a fuckload of people who would leap at that.

Just not the current Israeli government. And that bigotted religious cesspit can get to fuck. (Just like South Africa could when it wouldn't allow equality for blacks).

 

[Jupitus]

Hamas did a horrible horrible thing. Absolutely.

But not everyone in Gaza is Hamas.

Well, I would just hazard a guess that not everyone butchered by Hamas in Israel would have agreed with their government's stance and approach.

It's all very complex, but I hope I made my super-simplistic point.

 

[Wij]

Clearly not. It's a one-state secular solution that can lead to democracy in the future once the religious bigotry has died, like it has in other secular states.

Right now Israel is not even close to a democracy. My solution is not initially a true democracy but it would still be a massive improvement.

As for acceptability? I've learned recently that my one-state secular solution was the one-state secular solution that apparently the PLO wanted. So there's a fuckload of people who would leap at that.

Just not the current Israeli government. And that bigotted religious cesspit can get to fuck. (Just like South Africa could when it wouldn't allow equality for blacks).

South Africa had a completely different set of rights for black and white people and black people could not vote. There are very few rights that Israeli Arabs do not have but Jews do (the right to bring families to Israel from other countries being a notable exception.)

Does that mean that Arabs have just as nice a time as Jews in Israel? Obviously not. Arabs tend to live in poorer areas and may face discrimination from racist dickheads. Or even racist attacks. Also there’s obviously a nasty right wing government in Israel at the moment. None of these things are exclusive to Israel though. Minority populations having a shittier time for various reasons happens in most countries. Segregated communities does. I lived in Halifax and white areas and Asian areas was the absolute norm. There are nasty right wing governments who make things better for their supporting communities and don’t give a fuck about minorities in Europe.

On the other hand in some areas Jews and Arabs get on quite well but that doesn’t excuse the areas where they don’t.

My point is, in Israel itself, not counting the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, Arabs are a minority that suffers in similar ways to minority communities in many countries. It is not South Africa though.

 

[Scouse]

Either a massive misrepresentation borne of ignorance or wilful misrepresentation borne of, frankly, I don't care to speculate.

Nice to see you acknowledge that there's not equal rights @Wij. It's clear that there are some levels of injustice that are OK for you then. It's apartheid clear and simple.

And not just me saying that. Governments the world over, and ever-increasing numbers of people working for the UN.

There's shitloads of laws that enforce the inequality. Laws that would make Rosa Parks and her black-buses spin in her grave.

To pick a single one - the right to aquire and lease land is effectively jewish only - palestinians are blocked from leasing 80% of the land controlled by the state. But add nearly 70 other laws of similar magnitude to that count.

But it's not about what's "legal" is it. Arguments about "the law" are a fucking bald-faced lie. They're nothing but a distraction from the actual problem. It's not legal to rape and murder palestinians, to kill their children and families, to drive them from their homes.

But it happens all the time doesn't it @Wij . The government and the army and the civilians - all cracking on, killing and raping and burning houses to the ground. Driving Palestinians from their homes. This happens every day and has been happening since Israel was invented (and it's been massively ramped up in the West Bank whilst the world's eyes are on Gaza).

You know this is apartheid. It's almost identical in so many ways to the black oppression of South African apartheid but way more Palestinians have been killed by their own government in Israel.

 

[Wij]

That link was about East Jerusalem and the West Bank which I specifically said I wasn't talking about. I was talking about Arab Israelis in Israel proper. Arabs in East Jerusalem are not Israeli citizens so the same laws don't apply and the West Bank works an entirely different way.

You were saying that Israel has apartheid. I was clarifying that in Israel itself it is not similar to apartheid in South Africa. You haven't disproven that.

East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza are a whole different ball game with a whole different history.

Be more specific in what you are talking about.

 

[Raven]

US strikes Iran-linked sites in Syria amid fears Israel-Hamas war could escalate

Defence secretary says strikes in response to attacks on US troops and warns others against triggering ‘broader regional conflict’

www.theguardian.com

Edit: Ah, you'd seen it

But:


No link to the current ongoing crisis?

The larger conflict, yes, but they weren't directly related to Israel's terrorist attacks on Palestine.

 

[Scouse]

Be more specific in what you are talking about.

I am being.

I'm not falling for the bullshit you've fallen for: that East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank "aren't Israel". They are. The fact that Jerusalem is slap-bang in the middle of Israel gives lie to the utter ridiculousness of that doesn't it:

Spoiler

"Not Israel"

UK.Gov: "Oh, we built a wall around London, and another one around Birmingham. We've got control of their water, food and electricity and can cut them off at will. But they're self-governing separate entities and not part of the UK. That's why they have separate laws from us - they're not really British. And the dirty scum keep lobbing stuff at us because they don't like their concentration camp independent happy homes so we make sure we kill them in at least a 10-1 ratio to continually teach them a lesson that they just don't seem to want to learn. And of course, the fact that our civilians and military rape and murder them on a fairly regular basis cannot be counted as provocation of any kind. They're inhuman animals. That's why they're separate."

Bull @Wij. They're not separate. Jerusalem is the clearest most obvious example of that. It's 100% an apartheid state. And if the UN can recognise that, why can't you?

 

[Scouse]

Director General of the WHO:

View: https://twitter.com/DrTedros/status/1718592128039752132

 

[Wij]

I am being.

I'm not falling for the bullshit you've fallen for: that East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank "aren't Israel". They are. The fact that Jerusalem is slap-bang in the middle of Israel gives lie to the utter ridiculousness of that doesn't it:

Spoiler

"Not Israel"
View attachment 48288

UK.Gov: "Oh, we built a wall around London, and another one around Birmingham. We've got control of their water, food and electricity and can cut them off at will. But they're self-governing separate entities and not part of the UK. That's why they have separate laws from us - they're not really British. And the dirty scum keep lobbing stuff at us because they don't like their concentration camp independent happy homes so we make sure we kill them in at least a 10-1 ratio to continually teach them a lesson that they just don't seem to want to learn. And of course, the fact that our civilians and military rape and murder them on a fairly regular basis cannot be counted as provocation of any kind. They're inhuman animals. That's why they're separate."

Bull @Wij. They're not separate. Jerusalem is the clearest most obvious example of that. It's 100% an apartheid state. And if the UN can recognise that, why can't you?

I was specifically talking about the main part of Israel that my friend lived in and which doesn't have 'apartheid'. I said that's what I was talking about and made no pretence that things weren't different in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. You speak about Israel as an apartheid state without at least providing context that it is only certain areas you are referring to.

Gaza is definitely not Israel since 2005. Israel makes no claim to its land although it does control most of its borders and airspace, but Egypt also does the same. Israel lets hundreds of thousands of Gazans into Israel to work every day. Egypt is usually much stricter with its Gazan border. Egypt captured Gaza for itself in 1948 and did fuck all to improve their lot. Israel took it in 1967 when the Arab states had planned to invade Israel and carve it up between themselves again as they tried in 48.

Israel doesn't control all of Gaza's water and electricity. Gaza has diesel generators for most of its electricity and desalinisation plants for water. It just doesn't have enough so relies on imports from Israel and Egypt. It could still have plenty of both through imported diesel but both Egypt and Israel blockade the borders when they feel like it.

Gaza is a horrible place to live but that's the fault of Hamas, Egpyt and Israel. None of their hands are clean.

 

[Wij]

East Jerusalem is not equal for Palestinians (Jordanian territory before 1967) because only a small percentage are Israeli citizens. It is discriminatory. No denying that:

Why so few Palestinians from Jerusalem have Israeli citizenship

Since 1967, Over 14,000 Palestinians Living in East Jerusalem Have Had Their Residency Status Revoked, Something That Cannot Be Done to Citizens

www.haaretz.com

But attitudes are very different to those in Gaza and the (rest of) West Bank:

New Poll Reveals Moderate Trend Among East Jerusalem Palestinians

A new poll captures East Jerusalem attitudes towards Arab-Israeli rapprochement, involvement from other Arab countries, and the U.S. policy on the conflict.

www.washingtoninstitute.org

 

[Scouse]

Been wondering how to respond. I have written pages on this, but decided it's kind of pointless, so I'll just post this:

You speak about Israel as an apartheid state without at least providing context that it is only certain areas you are referring to.

Sorry @Wij your basic understanding of the structural basis for Israeli apartheid is flawed. I think wilfully. Legal discrimination absolutely applies to all of Israel - not just certain areas. It's trivial to find descriptions of exactly how Israeli law is functionally discriminatory - if you can be arsed. And a point I've made before - it frankly doesn't matter what the law says if pillage, rape and murder are functional policies supported by the state.

To keep it short I'll leave a short appeal to authority instead of pages of my own argument:

Quick link to a UN-hosted article on a report by the UN Special Rapponteur...

...recent reports and opinions issued by respected Palestinian, Israeli and international human rights organizations have come to the same conclusion on the practice of apartheid by Israel. ... leading international personalities – including former UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, South African Foreign Minister Naledi Pandor and former Israeli Attorney General Michael Ben-Yair – have also all called this apartheid.

Respected Israeli rights organisations, the Secretary General of the United Nations and the former Israeli Attourney General (amongst many many others) call what's going on in Israel Apartheid.

Tell me why they're wrong.

 

[Scouse]

Former AG of Israel: With great sadness I conclude that my country is now an apartheid regime

Michael Benyair, former Attorney General of Israel, agrees with Amnesty International.

www.thejournal.ie

It is with great sadness that I must also conclude that my country has sunk to such political and moral depths that it is now an apartheid regime

...

 

[Wij]

That’s still all about the West Bank and East Jerusalem which I already said was discriminatory. It’s not the same in Israel itself and that was the point I made. I am more than aware that the Israeli state runs both regimes however. You seem to think I’m not aware of that. I am.

Ultimately Israel needs to give up the occupied territories and get rid of the settlers. It took them from Jordan, who had also previously taken them by force, unfortunately setting a precedent in the region. In 56 years though it has not managed to do so due to the inability to find a solution acceptable to all sides so it just persists.

Gaza was given up but it is fucked. Both Egypt and Israel blockade it due to terrorist concerns. Egypt doesn’t want it back. It knows it’s too fucked and doesn’t want Hamas in its territory. Hamas does nothing for the people except use them as pawns to peruse its fanatical aims which have nothing in common with establishing a secular Palestine.

 

[Wij]

On a separate matter, mobs in Russia trying to find Jews in airports to lynch:


View: https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1718696622698135612?s=61&t=iv1E1O7hVRuRm0TFdyUzyw

 

[Scouse]

It’s not the same in Israel itself and that was the point I made.

And the point I've repeatedly said you're wrong about.

It's A) all of Israel and B) it's incorrect to separate the gaza strip and west bank out as Israel is the de-facto government. Says the ICC.

But C) It's all of Israel.

 

[Wij]

And the point I've repeatedly said you're wrong about.

It's A) all of Israel and B) it's incorrect to separate the gaza strip and west bank out as Israel is the de-facto government. Says the ICC.

But C) It's all of Israel.

It isn't. Arab citizens in Israel are treated completely differently to Arabs in the West Bank.

There is discrimination and some laws are more favourable to the majority but that's not unique to Israel:

What to Know About the Arab Citizens of Israel

Arabs represent one-fifth of Israel’s population. Systemic discrimination, outbreaks of communal violence, and the broader Israeli-Palestinian conflict continue to strain their ties with Israel’s Jew…

www.cfr.org

 

[Scouse]

It isn't. Arab citizens in Israel are treated completely differently to Arabs in the West Bank.

Yes, and Arab Israeli's are treated differently to Jewish Israeli's outside the West Bank too.

And regardless, you don't seem to be able to comprehend that treating those in the west bank differently is also apartheid. The ICC has established Israel's legal responsibilities - and that's to the whole of Israel including the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip.

They've cut through the "they're separate" bullshit both you and the state of Israel are promulgating in an effort to apologise for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

 

[Wij]

Yes, and Arab Israeli's are treated differently to Jewish Israeli's outside the West Bank too.

And regardless, you don't seem to be able to comprehend that treating those in the west bank differently is also apartheid. The ICC has established Israel's legal responsibilities - and that's to the whole of Israel including the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip.

They've cut through the "they're separate" bullshit both you and the state of Israel are promulgating in an effort to apologise for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

You aren't arguing the facts. Just what I am allowed to think about them.

And Gaza is not Israel, which is kind of the point in this thread.

 

[Scouse]

You aren't arguing the facts. Just what I am allowed to think about them.

And Gaza is not Israel, which is kind of the point in this thread.

I am, you're blind to it. it's a fact that Jewish and Arab Israeli's outside of the Occupied Territories are treated differently. And functionally the occupied territories are Israel.

I can't continue discussion with you on this unless you can see the world as it actually is, rather than the fantasy Israel presents.

 

[Wij]

I am, you're blind to it. it's a fact that Jewish and Arab Israeli's outside of the Occupied Territories are treated differently. And functionally the occupied territories are Israel.

I can't continue discussion with you on this unless you can see the world as it actually is, rather than the fantasy Israel presents.

I'm not seeing a fantasy Israel presents. I'm happy to criticise Israel and have done many times. That doesn't mean I have to accept that Arab-Israeli citizens in Israel are subjected to apartheid when they are not. Does that mean there is no discrimination in Israel against Arab-Israelis? No, of course not, but discrimination happens in many countries. Apartheid is a different thing. Words have meaning. I happily concede that the treatment of Arabs in the West Bank can be classed as apartheid and I happily concede that Israel, the state, is in control of the West Bank so it is its responsibility. That doesn't seem to be enough for you though. I have to say everything Israel does is the worst possible thing in all cases.

Call me a whataboutist as well but apartheid was absolutely the Arab plan for Jews:

The expulsion of Jews from Arab countries and Iran – an untold history - World Jewish Congress

"My parents and grandparents were forced to flee Egypt in 1957, leaving everything they possessed behind, to start a new life in a country they didn’t know – Brazil – with a language they didn’t speak - Portuguese. All of their assets were plundered and as of today, nothing that remained of...

www.worldjewishcongress.org

 

[Scouse]

That doesn't mean I have to accept that Arab-Israeli citizens in Israel are subjected to apartheid when they are not.

Subject to different rules, restrictions and choices, a discrimination based on 'ethnicity' alone?

a policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race

Your view seems very much at odds with both the definition of apartheid and all the organisations and people I referred to above.

 

[Wij]

Subject to different rules, restrictions and choices, a discrimination based on 'ethnicity' alone?

Like what? Apart from the right to bring in families? Mandatory service in the IDF for Jews versus voluntary service if they choose as Arabs seems a disbenefit tbh. There's virtually no laws based on ethnicity and what laws there are could be reversed by another government.

The organisations you referred to were talking about the West Bank and East Jerusalem which I already agreed on.

 

[Wij]

Also, if you are going to set the bar so low on the definition of apartheid then it would catch virtually all Arab states and many others around the world. Many of which would be significantly more so than Israel. Just off the top of my head, Kurds CANNOT be citizens in Syria and therefore have no rights and representation. Jews are not allowed into any government positions. Significantly worse than the situation for Arab-Israelis who can vote and sit in the Knesset. Jordan no longer allows Palestinians to apply for citizenship.

If you want to go there then fine. At least 50% of all the countries in the world are a bit apartheid.

We reserve 20 seats in the House Of Lords for pointy-hatted nobs from one sect of one religion. A bit like Iran.

 

[Scouse]

Wrong stuff.

There are no ‘two Israels’

...much of the discussion in the international community operates as if Israel’s behaviour in the occupied territories can be distinguished from the liberal democracy that exists within the Green Line. This is a mistake.

oooh, and:

Between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, it is Israel that is permanently depriving millions of Palestinians of their civil and political rights. This is Israeli apartheid.

The status quo on the ground is a moral abomination. The delay by the international community in taking meaningful steps to hold Israel accountable for the apartheid regime it is perpetuating is unacceptable.

/Scouse sides with the Israeli Attourney General (and the myriad rights groups who are saying something quite different from Wij).

🤷