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Israel/Palestine (Conflict to more Conflicts)
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Wij
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Fine. I've always said I agree on most things. I can't stand Netenyahu and Israel should fuck off out of the West Bank and come to a deal.
btw - I don't agree that this law bans interracial marriage. It clearly says nothing about race. Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis do marry. It obviously is likely to affect one group more than another as laws in many countries do. Israel is not without discrimination. It's not like actually banning interracial marriage though:
en.wikipedia.org
Israel is obviously not perfect. It has built up a set of protectionist laws based on the aftermath of the holocaust and then, once it declared statehood (as per UN resolution), having the whole of the Arab world try to destroy it, twice, and almost permanent terrorist attacks since. People that worried about their existence may well pass a load of laws with self-preservation in mind. It's not nice, but that's human nature.
Hamas are cunts. Iran is a cunt-state. They want conflict and an end to Jews in the Middle East completely. I like them less than Israel. Palestinians who don't support Hamas I have sympathy for.
That's about it. I'm not likely to change those views so if we don't need to argue that it's fine with me
btw - I don't agree that this law bans interracial marriage. It clearly says nothing about race. Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis do marry. It obviously is likely to affect one group more than another as laws in many countries do. Israel is not without discrimination. It's not like actually banning interracial marriage though:
Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law - Wikipedia
Israel is obviously not perfect. It has built up a set of protectionist laws based on the aftermath of the holocaust and then, once it declared statehood (as per UN resolution), having the whole of the Arab world try to destroy it, twice, and almost permanent terrorist attacks since. People that worried about their existence may well pass a load of laws with self-preservation in mind. It's not nice, but that's human nature.
Hamas are cunts. Iran is a cunt-state. They want conflict and an end to Jews in the Middle East completely. I like them less than Israel. Palestinians who don't support Hamas I have sympathy for.
That's about it. I'm not likely to change those views so if we don't need to argue that it's fine with me
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The reason why I linked to the prohibition of interracial marriages was because I thought "surely there's no discrimination there - Israelis can marry who they like without interference" - but alas, I found out that wasn't the case!
Of course, the pertinent word in the Aprtheid Convention is similar - so it doesn't have to be discrimination based on 'race' (although 'ethnicity' has been used interchangably by even you on this thread).
But hey ho. Even if the marriage thing is complete bunkum, Israel fails on all of the other six measures (none of which you've even mentioned). And the marriage thing still applies to this one:
But there's something else, much more fundamental, I'll deal with separately.
Of course, the pertinent word in the Aprtheid Convention is similar - so it doesn't have to be discrimination based on 'race' (although 'ethnicity' has been used interchangably by even you on this thread).
But hey ho. Even if the marriage thing is complete bunkum, Israel fails on all of the other six measures (none of which you've even mentioned). And the marriage thing still applies to this one:
- measures that divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate residential areas for racial groups
But there's something else, much more fundamental, I'll deal with separately.
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This is simply not true.
Israel didn't setup the laws to "protect itself" on the back of the holocaust. It's laws were always the objective. Theodor Hertzl died in 1904 and when he wrote Der Judenstaat this was exactly what he envisaged.
I don't know whether Hertzl was a cunt or not but his idea won - there were plenty of jews trying to create a homeland that wasn't in Palestine.
So, it's nothing to do with the holocaust. It's to do with wanting a state. An inherently discriminatory state. Because as Israel is a land for the jews, how can it not be?
Any country for <insert a group here> is inherently not for <insert a group here>.
That's Israel's - and might I say judaeism's - ultimate problem. If Israel has any ambition for jews not only in Israel but worldwide not to suffer unjust discrimination at the hands of people looking for a reason to hate jews - then it needs to remove as many of those reasons as possible. And running an inherently discriminatory homeland where everyone non-jew (and even then only state-acceptable jews) is lower/lesser is not only immoral - it's a fucking red rag to a bull.
As long as Israel isn't secular and pluralistic in nature then ultimately it's going to stoke hatred against jews. And, frankly, jews have enough of that anyway without Israel acting like it does.
Wij
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It doesn't follow that everyone in 1948 was following Hertzl though. They had a lot going on then.
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The creation of Israel followed his plan. That is why Hertzl is to this day officially refered to as the "Spiritual Father of the Jewish State" and he's specifically mentioned in the "Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel".
Here's a picture of David Ben-Gurion, the first Prime Minister of Israel, in the Independence Hall, formerly the Tel Aviv Museum of Art, on Rothschild Boulevard, during the reading of the declaration which (laughably) "established" the state in 1948.
Who's in the picture in the background? Oh yes. It's fucking Theodor Hertzl.
Q.E.D.
At least we're talking
Wij
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For flip’s sake. I am more than aware that Zionism existed before the Holocaust. Hertzl himself said he was inspired by the rank antisemitism experienced in Europe at the time. He didn’t think it was likely to get better, and that was in the 19th century and that therefore moving to Jewish-majority state might be the only way to escape persecution. And yes, some Jews started legally purchasing land in the Ottoman Empire then, which isn’t a crime.The creation of Israel followed his plan. That is why Hertzl is to this day officially refered to as the "Spiritual Father of the Jewish State" and he's specifically mentioned in the "Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel".
Here's a picture of David Ben-Gurion, the first Prime Minister of Israel, in the Independence Hall, formerly the Tel Aviv Museum of Art, on Rothschild Boulevard, during the reading of the declaration which (laughably) "established" the state in 1948.
View attachment 48354
Who's in the picture in the background? Oh yes. It's fucking Theodor Hertzl.
Q.E.D.
At least we're talking
Fast-forward 50 years, long after his death, and 6 million dead Jews later, Hertzl seems pretty clairvoyant and a lot more Jews think, maybe this idea of a Jewish state was a good one.
The existence of Zionism before the holocaust does not imply that the establishment of a Jewish state, just after the holocaust, had nothing to do with the holocaust.
Come on. That’s silly.
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We weren't talking about the creation of the state (which gained impetus after we did nothing to stop the nazis but would probably have happened anyway without the holocaust).
We were talking about Israel's racist laws - which are nothing to do with the holocaust and everything to do with zionism and Hertzl and is the whole point of Israel - to discriminate.
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Further reading on your point @Wij - written by a very well-respected jew.
View: https://medium.com/history-uncut/was-israel-created-because-holocaust-12f4f5ffc4b9
View: https://medium.com/history-uncut/was-israel-created-because-holocaust-12f4f5ffc4b9
Wij
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That’s a distinction without a difference. It wouldn’t have been a state with any laws if it hadn’t been established.
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Read the post above...
It was going to be a state anyway. And the laws they enacted were likely going to be enacted regardless of the holocaust.
The purpose of Israel is to be fundamentally discriminatory. It's been morally bankrupt since before it was even founded - because the very idea of it is broken.
Wij
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That really doesn’t help you. On the laws being Hertzl’s. They were proposed as a remedy for antisemitism and therefore, when the biggest instance of antisemitism occurred they were obviously chosen. The fact that people wanted them before doesn’t mean that the holocaust had nothing to do with them being selected.
The article mentions loads of stuff about WW2, of which the holocaust was a big part. Maybe they would have tried to create a Jewish state anyway. Counterfactuals are cool. Would it have looked the same? Who knows. Not you or me.
The holocaust may not have been the sole factor for Truman and Stalin but it was a big factor in the circumstances at the time and certainly for those who wanted to flee there, become politicians and set laws. To say that the holocaust had no effect on how Israel ended up being the state it is now with the laws is has is not credible.
Wij
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The discrimination was literally created to be a defence against antisemitism. That was Hertzl’s stated aim.
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I said the holocaust gave it impetus but wasn't causal and backed it up with analysis from well respected jewish expert authority.
The laws are down to zionism, not the creation of the state.
Oh look, you've agreed with me:
Hertzl was (obviously, clearly, horrendously) wrong. He has done fuck all to defend against antisemitism. It's massively on the rise globally - because people have a jewish state to point at that's committing genocide and has been raping and murdering non-jews, with state blessing, and deporting black jews (not the right colour) and generally acting like a religious caliphate since it was violently brought into existence.
Basing anything around the belief of sky-faries is usually a bête noire for you @Wij. Why does judaeism get a pass in your book?
The laws are down to zionism, not the creation of the state.
Oh look, you've agreed with me:
So yep. Discriminatory laws. The whole purpose of Israel.
Hertzl was (obviously, clearly, horrendously) wrong. He has done fuck all to defend against antisemitism. It's massively on the rise globally - because people have a jewish state to point at that's committing genocide and has been raping and murdering non-jews, with state blessing, and deporting black jews (not the right colour) and generally acting like a religious caliphate since it was violently brought into existence.
Basing anything around the belief of sky-faries is usually a bête noire for you @Wij. Why does judaeism get a pass in your book?
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Oh dear Starmer:
He's a long way from impartial on this. He should allow his MPs a free vote of conscience.
Labour frontbenchers quit to back Gaza ceasefire motion
A number of Labour MPs are expected to defy their party leader over the issue in a Commons vote.
www.bbc.co.uk
He's a long way from impartial on this. He should allow his MPs a free vote of conscience.
Wij
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It doesn't matter if he was right or wrong. That doesn't come into the argument at all. It doesn't matter, for your point, if they are discriminatory (in stating that they always wanted to maintain a Jewish majority, for protection). You were just trying to show the holocaust had no effect on them coming into being.
A Jewish-majority state was proposed by Zionists as the only way for Jews to escape persecution in Europe. Again, it doesn't matter whether it's a good or bad solution here, just whether people think it might work enough for them to be motivated by it.
A Jewish state was created, in part at least due to the events of WW2. Given what had happened in Europe, the Zionist plan seemed the obvious one to pick since it proposed a way to protect Jews against anti-semitism. You don't know exactly how Isreal might have looked had it been set up and WW2 had never happened and Jews were just getting on with everyone really well and everyone lived in harmony. You don't know what the Israeli state would have looked like if the 1930s and 1940s had been one long world-wide celebration of how much everyone loved Jews. You just don't know.
Anyway, that's enough for one day thanks
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The jewish israel-palestine expert refered above rejects that it was causal. It was going to happen anyway.
We know, fundamentally, that discrimination breeds discontent. Everyone could have loved the jews in your fantasy land. But Israel's discriminatory laws would have poisoned people against them.
Like it's doing very succesfully the world over right now.
Wij
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Doesn’t address what I said at all. Ignoring
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I'm not ignoring anything. I just reread your post twice. There's nothing in there that hasn't already been answered, sometimes more than once.Doesn’t address what I said at all. Ignoring
It's been a long day, I'm willing to accept that maybe I'm missing something. Why not explain your point again, like you would to a child.
Wij
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No thanks. You missing the point is a good excuse to get on with other things instead sorry. Million and one things to do at the moment
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Wij
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Not accurate apparently. Some of his sisters kids may have served. Possibly because service grants land rights that those of palestinian descent wouldn't be able to get otherwise. But the sisters live on the edge of the negev desert and moved over 30 years ago. Israel introduced laws to stop palestinian women over 25 and men over 35 from applying to join their spouses in Israel, so nowadays they'd be completely fucked.
Of course, they're not allowed to speak to their brother. That's illegal under Israeli law.
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Meanwhile, nearly all of Gaza's hospitals are completely out of action.
At Al-Shifa they're going room by room now. Patients are screaming for water as Israel cut the last pipe. If you go between buildings you get killed by snipers. Refugees, patients and medical staff cannot leave - they get shot.
A dialysis patient just died because of a lack of electricity and there's a few more on the way. All the premature babies are at massive risk. Newborns are already dying.
Elsewhere in Gaza, Israel has started leaflet dropping "safe zones" in southern gaza telling people to get the fuck out. They'll probably bomb the ones that try though, like they did last time round.
There's raw sewage running in the streets. Even if a ceasefire was called today nobody would have any homes to go back to. Northern gaza's effectively a wasteland now.
This was always Israel's plan.
At Al-Shifa they're going room by room now. Patients are screaming for water as Israel cut the last pipe. If you go between buildings you get killed by snipers. Refugees, patients and medical staff cannot leave - they get shot.
A dialysis patient just died because of a lack of electricity and there's a few more on the way. All the premature babies are at massive risk. Newborns are already dying.
Elsewhere in Gaza, Israel has started leaflet dropping "safe zones" in southern gaza telling people to get the fuck out. They'll probably bomb the ones that try though, like they did last time round.
There's raw sewage running in the streets. Even if a ceasefire was called today nobody would have any homes to go back to. Northern gaza's effectively a wasteland now.
This was always Israel's plan.