Is this what society has come to?

[Scouse]

Go on. If gender is a real thing what determines your gender? Do people have a ladysoul?

You're hostile to the ideas @Wij. What's the point? They've already been expressed in detail and at length and it's done nowt for your position.

Suffice to say, the debate doesn't really affect you. So chill.

Some people, a minority, are really really happy that our understanding is evolving. I'm happy for them if it makes their lives easier and am perfectly happy to make the small (for all intents and purposes, utterly unnoticeable in my day to day life) concessions that mean so much to them.

Meh

 

[Wij]

You're hostile to the ideas @Wij. What's the point? They've already been expressed in detail and at length and it's done nowt for your position.

Suffice to say, the debate doesn't really affect you. So chill.

Some people, a minority, are really really happy that our understanding is evolving. I'm happy for them if it makes their lives easier and am perfectly happy to make the small (for all intents and purposes, utterly unnoticeable in my day to day life) concessions that mean so much to them.

Meh

You don’t have to make concessions. Women do. Very big of you to approve of them.

 

[Job]

The problem is of course not being able to have an opinion that isnt the correct one.
Then forcing their normality in situations where its just guaranteed to piss everyone off.
That may seem to help to the short sighted liberals..but as you see it just builds a resentment that wasnt there to start with.
We just need to laugh about it and move on.

 

[Gwadien]

The problem is of course not being able to have an opinion that isnt the correct one.
Then forcing their normality in situations where its just guaranteed to piss everyone off.
That may seem to help to the short sighted liberals..but as you see it just builds a resentment that wasnt there to start with.
We just need to laugh about it and move on.

I don't understand though.

You (and others) are highly critical of the LGBTQ community.

Yet you're upset that Muslims in Birmingham aren't accepting LGBTQ lessons?

 

[Scouse]

You don’t have to make concessions. Women do. Very big of you to approve of them.

Oh do fuck off with making a discussion about gender (which is relevant to all of us, regardless of biological sex) into a discussion about male > female transgenders wanting to share the same bathroom.

It's a tiny, extreme, part of a much wider and more interesting topic.

Your narrow interest has been done. to. death. around here.

 

[Scouse]

I don't understand though.

You (and others) are highly critical of the LGBTQ community.

Yet you're upset that Muslims in Birmingham aren't accepting LGBTQ lessons?

You do understand perfectly.

Job is an "opportunistic cunt". He takes any opportunity and advantage he can to bash the fuck out of groups he doesn't like, even if it means magically supporting another group that he hates, temporarily, and for the duration of that bashing.

 

[Wij]

Oh do fuck off with making a discussion about gender (which is relevant to all of us, regardless of biological sex) into a discussion about male > female transgenders wanting to share the same bathroom.

It's a tiny, extreme, part of a much wider and more interesting topic.

Your narrow interest has been done. to. death. around here.

You still haven’t answered the question about what gender is. Whether it’s actually a real thing. You also haven’t stated why gender should trump sex and why we should change the meaning of our words to accommodate it.

 

[Scouse]

You still haven’t answered the question about what gender is. Whether it’s actually a real thing. You also haven’t stated why gender should trump sex and why we should change the meaning of our words to accommodate it.

I have. You've just discounted the arguments because you don't like them. Fair enough.

I don't think gender should "trump" sex. It's a separate (interrelated, maybe) thing, but I don't think it shouldn't have a bearing on how society is structured. And as society changes going forward that sort of stuff will probably happen. Big deal.

I'll engage on the language point (I'm done with the rest, at least for today ) - Science shows our language is so shockingly inept at portraying actual meaning accurately and understandably to other humans. Not just English, other languages too, ofc. Speaking other languages fluently changes our modes and methods of thinking in measurable ways.

Given that, and the fact that language is fluid anyway, and that society is gradually developing and changing over time, it's not unreasonable for people to suggest different words that help better reflect the newly understood reality.

Tensions will happen, of course, because we're not all on the same page. But #storminateacup eh?

 

[Wij]

I have. You've just discounted the arguments because you don't like them. Fair enough.

I don't think gender should "trump" sex. It's a separate (interrelated, maybe) thing, but I don't think it shouldn't have a bearing on how society is structured. And as society changes going forward that sort of stuff will probably happen. Big deal.

I'll engage on the language point (I'm done with the rest, at least for today ) - Science shows our language is so shockingly inept at portraying actual meaning accurately and understandably to other humans. Not just English, other languages too, ofc. Speaking other languages fluently changes our modes and methods of thinking in measurable ways.

Given that, and the fact that language is fluid anyway, and that society is gradually developing and changing over time, it's not unreasonable for people to suggest different words that help better reflect the newly understood reality.

Tensions will happen, of course, because we're not all on the same page. But #storminateacup eh?

No because we don’t have other words. An adult human female is a woman. If we say that now means ‘people who like wearing skirts’ then what word should females use to refer to themselves?

 

[Scouse]

No because we don’t have other words. An adult human female is a woman. If we say that now means ‘people who like wearing skirts’ then what word should females use to refer to themselves?

How the fuck should I know? It's not even personal to me.

People'll figure it out...

 

[Wij]

How the fuck should I know? It's not even personal to me.

People'll figure it out...

That's not an answer though is it? That's just an I'm alright Jack.

 

[Wij]

I have. You've just discounted the arguments because you don't like them.

I didn't dismiss them. I pointed out that they aren't arguments.

"Women are people who feel feminine."

"So what does feminine mean then?"

"Woman-like."

???

You say that I'm the one confusing sex and gender and again the opposite is true. I'm saying that if gender is something different then use a different word and if it doesn't mean sex then why should people who identify as a female-gender expect the rights of the female sex? If it's a different thing then it doesn't make sense. People are deliberately blurring the distinction when they choose to to have it both ways.

 

[Scouse]

That's not an answer though is it? That's just an I'm alright Jack.

Oh. My mistake.

I didn't know I was responsible for mandating the english language terms that future generations of people might use to refer to describe gender. I guess I am expertly placed, right?

Or maybe your question is an unreasonable ask for me to answer considering there's clearly a debate going on?

Personally, with me not having a particular oar in this, I'll sit back and see what happens. But I'll not suffer from the moral outrage and incredibly personal worry that some people seem to be experiencing over these sorts of issues.

"Issues" being the word. Not one "issue", but many. So it's difficult to treat them so reductively and still try to keep a handle on things...

 

[Scouse]

People are deliberately blurring the distinction when they choose to to have it both ways.

Don't disagree on that particularly. Some will do it for advantage. Some will simply be confused too.

I also don't think we're particularly well equipped in the west to transition from how we currently see things to how we might eventually end up seeing things. Other cultures would make the transition much more smoothly. Especially cultures which routinely recognise more than two genders.

Meh. I guess you're struggling with how they fit into our current culture. Personally, I don't think that can happen. I think what might happen (it might not) is that our culture will change to fit around them - like other cultures that recognise more than one gender. And I've no real problem with that.

 

[Wij]

Don't disagree on that particularly. Some will do it for advantage. Some will simply be confused too.

I also don't think we're particularly well equipped in the west to transition from how we currently see things to how we might eventually end up seeing things. Other cultures would make the transition much more smoothly. Especially cultures which routinely recognise more than two genders.

Meh. I guess you're struggling with how they fit into our current culture. Personally, I don't think that can happen. I think what might happen (it might not) is that our culture will change to fit around them - like other cultures that recognise more than one gender. And I've no real problem with that.

You've just shown that 'genders' are just a cultural construct. Therefore if that construct is actively harming people it can and should be challenged. As an example, if a load of biological males are harassing and shaming lesbians who don't want to suck dick then we should be able to challenge it as homophobic or mysoginist or just plain shitty (choose your pejorative) yes? Or should we say 'No way you lezzers. You aren't woke enough. This is the 21st century. Suck some dick' ?

 

[Scouse]

Why do you keep coming back to that when I've a) agreed with you already (multiple times, and I'm fucking bored of agreeing with you) and b) there's many more interesting things to discuss.

As for 'cultural construct' - it'd say partly. Of course. But I definitely say it's largely 'cultural recognition' - many cultures have grown up in a manner that recognises many humans' non-binary nature and have acommodated and assimilated that *fact* as normal - and dealt with it simply by recognising multiple genders.

With our repressive christian religious hangover the way we in the west especially see things isn't particularly compatible with that. But it doesn't make it "not real". Or why would lots have cultures have seamlessly integrated these ideas for thousands of years?

Just for shits and giggles? I mean, all those cultures, today and throughout history. Were they just being wankers @Wij, making (the same) shit up (independently) about stuff that's not actually a part of human experience?

I'm not going to insult you by pressing for an answer to that - Of course it's real. The evidence is very, very clear. We'll hopefully adapt to recognise it.

In the meantime, people are gonna fixate on toilet block usage and whether people should suck dicks and whether that makes you 'gay' or 'fluid' or other such shit I guess.

What's guaranteed in this day and age is that the outraged and the extremes are going to get the biggest focus - as normal - just magnified through our new globally-connected communications landscspe.

 

[Wij]

Why do you keep coming back to that when I've a) agreed with you already (multiple times, and I'm fucking bored of agreeing with you) and b) there's many more interesting things to discuss.

As for 'cultural construct' - it'd say partly. Of course. But I definitely say it's largely 'cultural recognition' - many cultures have grown up in a manner that recognises many humans' non-binary nature and have acommodated and assimilated that *fact* as normal.

With our repressive christian religious hangover the way we in the west especially see things isn't particularly compatible with that. But it doesn't make it "not real". Or why would lots have cultures have seamlessly integrated these ideas for thousands of years?

Just for shits and giggles?

None of which are universal. Sex is because it is real.

Therefore we can challenge it if it is harmful and leave it alone when it isn't. Re-defining 'woman' to be how a man feels is wrong. Telling lesbians their sexuality is bigoted is wrong. Telling women that their sports should admit males and that they should just get over it is wrong. I'll challenge that. You can too.

On the other hand if anyone wants to dress in any way they like or fuck who they like great. I won't challenge that because it's not harmful and is in fact beneficial if everyone just accepts it and stops trying to tell each other that some of that is women's behaviour and some is men's.

Pretty sure I'm not oppressing anyone.

 

[Scouse]

Sex is because it is real.

You keep coming back to that.

Multiple genders are real. Different cultures treat it differently (not universally) because it's extremely complex and not necessarily fixed over the lifetime of a single animal.

As a species we struggle with simple things. But the fact that multiple cultures have recognised there's an issue and tried to deal with it (in their own imperfect way) shows it's a real part of the human condition.

Biological sex is simple. That's why there's more consistency.

But then, as I've said, repeatedly:

Sex <> Gender.

Q.E.D.

 

[DaGaffer]

You keep coming back to that.

Multiple genders are real. Different cultures treat it differently (not universally) because it's extremely complex and not necessarily fixed over the lifetime of a single animal.

As a species we struggle with simple things. But the fact that multiple cultures have recognised there's an issue and tried to deal with it (in their own imperfect way) shows it's a real part of the human condition.

Biological sex is simple. That's why there's more consistency.

But then, as I've said, repeatedly:

Sex <> Gender.

Q.E.D.

Oh fuck off with your QED bollocks. "Gender" is real in the same way God is real; it's a series (an ever expanding series) of definitions based on feelings and wants. "Gender" is just another (sincerely held) belief structure. And just like God, the idea is being weaponized by zealots to serve their own agenda.

 

[Job]

I don't understand though.

You (and others) are highly critical of the LGBTQ community.

Yet you're upset that Muslims in Birmingham aren't accepting LGBTQ lessons?

Im not highly critical.of the community at all..Im critical of the ridiculous virtue signalling and safe spacing liberals throw at the issue and cause nothing but extra problems that werent there to start with.
I dont blame trans athletes for competing..I blame the ludicrous atmosphere of fear that offcials and politicians/focus groups have allowed to smother all reasoned conversation.

 

[Wij]

Trans ideology is trying to deny homosexuality:


View: https://twitter.com/PinkNews/status/1063189969206947842


Literally.

 

[Scouse]

Oh fuck off with your QED bollocks. "Gender" is real in the same way God is real; it's a series (an ever expanding series) of definitions based on feelings and wants. "Gender" is just another (sincerely held) belief structure. And just like God, the idea is being weaponized by zealots to serve their own agenda.

Don't disagree that it's weaponized by zealots. In fact, that's all everyone wants to talk about round here. Like zealotry on the other side.

But god forbid humans might structure their human societies in a way that better accommodates the feelings and wants of, er, humans eh?

Other cultures have achieved this harmoniously, so if ours can't then that's a damning indictment of rigid orthodoxy unable to compassionately cater for a wider and more complex (and ultimately more realistic) human experience.

I regard this weaponisation bollocks as just a natural occurance during a time of cultural upheaval. It'll calm down eventually.

 

[Wij]

Don't disagree that it's weaponized by zealots. In fact, that's all everyone wants to talk about round here. Like zealotry on the other side.

But god forbid humans might structure their human societies in a way that better accommodates the feelings and wants of, er, humans eh?

Other cultures have achieved this harmoniously, so if ours can't then that's a damning indictment of rigid orthodoxy unable to compassionately cater for a wider and more complex (and ultimately more realistic) human experience.

I regard this weaponisation bollocks as just a natural occurance during a time of cultural upheaval. It'll calm down eventually.

If they weren't trying to erase women and lesbians and encourage children to mutilate themselves then people would be happy to accommodate them.

And when I say 'them' I'm referring to the trans extremists. Many trans people also think this is all crazy but they are being shouted down as transphobes. Seriously.

 

[Job]

Its an ancient debate that the western world has discovered and is trying to claim its global superiority on as usual.
Every single type of gender exists in cultures around the world, they have been worshipped and ostracised.
There are people all over the planet with varying degress of penis /clitoris and both and neither.

I just feel that western liberalisation has discovered all these tools to investigate and label and they are throwing them at everything that moves in a strange puritan/hedonistic crossover crusade.
Its not being used to make the lives better for people outside of the box, its being used to destroy those who have the slightest concern and as with the muslim/gay issue its throwing up anomolies that they dont address, they just throw more racist/homophobe at anyone who points it out.
As per Gwads posts.

 

[Scouse]

If they weren't trying to erase women and lesbians and encourage children to mutilate themselves then people would be happy to accommodate them.

And when I say 'them' I'm referring to the trans extremists. Many trans people also think this is all crazy but they are being shouted down as transphobes. Seriously.

Yes @Wij. I've agreed that trans extremists are arses multiple times.

To be fair though - you're always going to have people on the extreme edge of anything. They end up creating so much noise that movement happens elsewhere.

They'll never stfu - but maybe things will improve for the moderate majority.

If they weren't around creating noise and being a pain in the ass then we wouldn't "accomodate" anything - we probably wouldn't even be talking about this....

 

[Wij]

Yes @Wij. I've agreed that trans extremists are arses multiple times.

To be fair though - you're always going to have people on the extreme edge of anything. They end up creating so much noise that movement happens elsewhere.

They'll never stfu - but maybe things will improve for the moderate majority.

If they weren't around creating noise and being a pain in the ass then we wouldn't "accomodate" anything - we probably wouldn't even be talking about this....

My point though is that extremists are holding sway and the views of most people are suppressed for fear of being branded a bigot. People are actually being banned from Twitter and reported to police for misgendering which is just using the words to describe people's sex, the actual meaning, rather than their gender, which isn't the actual meaning.

People are being shouted down and shamed until they cave in to the demand that the word woman means whatever a man says he feels like. That also has to include lesbians sleeping with them and women's sport allowing them. You are now bigoted unless you accept those positions that you, Scouse, have admitted you don't even agree with.

 

[Gwadien]

Its an ancient debate that the western world has discovered and is trying to claim its global superiority on as usual.
Every single type of gender exists in cultures around the world, they have been worshipped and ostracised.
There are people all over the planet with varying degress of penis /clitoris and both and neither.

I just feel that western liberalisation has discovered all these tools to investigate and label and they are throwing them at everything that moves in a strange puritan/hedonistic crossover crusade.
Its not being used to make the lives better for people outside of the box, its being used to destroy those who have the slightest concern and as with the muslim/gay issue its throwing up anomolies that they dont address, they just throw more racist/homophobe at anyone who points it out.
As per Gwads posts.

I'm sorry but I can't be bothered reading your posts anymore, it's just littered with Trump soundbites, you're unable to construct a full sentence with purely original thought.

 

[Ctuchik]

My point though is that extremists are holding sway and the views of most people are suppressed for fear of being branded a bigot. People are actually being banned from Twitter and reported to police for misgendering which is just using the words to describe people's sex, the actual meaning, rather than their gender, which isn't the actual meaning.

People are being shouted down and shamed until they cave in to the demand that the word woman means whatever a man says he feels like. That also has to include lesbians sleeping with them and women's sport allowing them. You are now bigoted unless you accept those positions that you, Scouse, have admitted you don't even agree with.

I couldn't give less of a crap what sex or gender people think they are. You need a man and a woman to make a baby, that's all that matters.

 

[Scouse]

My point though is that extremists are holding sway and the views of most people are suppressed for fear of being branded a bigot. People are actually being banned from Twitter and reported to police for misgendering which is just using the words to describe people's sex, the actual meaning, rather than their gender, which isn't the actual meaning.

People are being shouted down and shamed until they cave in to the demand that the word woman means whatever a man says he feels like. That also has to include lesbians sleeping with them and women's sport allowing them. You are now bigoted unless you accept those positions that you, Scouse, have admitted you don't even agree with.

Yep.

It's all noise as it gets sorted out. It's not great tho. It'll go on for decades I reckon. Wouldn't be happening if there wasn't a requirement for cultural change in the first place.

Messy. As. Fuck.

To be fair though - if you're on twitter in the first place that alone should be an arrestable offence

 

[Scouse]

I couldn't give less of a crap what sex or gender people think they are. You need a man and a woman to make a baby, that's all that matters.

Yep.

Well, not so much men any more. We can do our bit by science.


But your point has fuck all to do with this discussion