Is this what society has come to?

Scouse

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You're picking the extreme. Obviously males, transitioned to female, shouldn't compete vs natural-born females, for all sorts of physiological reasons.

But 99.9% of trans people couldn't give a fuck about competitive sports, they just want to be comfortable with themselves. Why is someone else's happiness some sort of issue for people?

You're, essentially, the flip side of the bigot coin.
100%.

Times eleventy.

Times /thread.

Times, jeesus get off twitter.
 

Scouse

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Because I could post countless examples of people being outraged at this sensible decision and you would write every one off as an outlier.
Yep. Pretty much.

Because they are outliers.

Get off twitter @Wij. It's turning someone who I consider to be actually probably quite clearly an intellect into someone who's outraged at fringe shit.
 

Scouse

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You are trying to tell them how to think again.
No. I'm being told that people aren't allowed to ask questions, because other people are offended by those questions.

I'm not telling anyone anything.
 

Wij

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No. I'm being told that people aren't allowed to ask questions, because other people are offended by those questions.

I'm not telling anyone anything.
Yes, you are. Thousands of gay and lesbian people were fucked off at what Nancy Kelley said and you are saying they are wrong.
 

Wij

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Yep. Pretty much.

Because they are outliers.

Get off twitter @Wij. It's turning someone who I consider to be actually probably quite clearly an intellect into someone who's outraged at fringe shit.
You would write every example off as an outlier meaning you will never accept evidence.

Try it the other way then. Find me a trans rights group that fully supports this decision as fair.
 

Raven

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Again, who gives a fuck what "Trans rights groups" think, you're still working on the extremes.

As an adult, you deal with all sorts of people, dickheads, sound people, males, females, those in-between. Learn to take people as they are, learn to allow people to be happy with who they are, how does someone else's happiness impact on yours?

If it does, then maybe, you just aren't that happy with your own lot in life?

Life sucks, quite often, but don't take it out on those that have found their way.
 

Wij

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Again, who gives a fuck what "Trans rights groups" think, you're still working on the extremes.

As an adult, you deal with all sorts of people, dickheads, sound people, males, females, those in-between. Learn to take people as they are, learn to allow people to be happy with who they are, how does someone else's happiness impact on yours?

If it does, then maybe, you just aren't that happy with your own lot in life?

Life sucks, quite often, but don't take it out on those that have found their way.
What has that got to do with what we are talking about?

Osy stated that people were asking for special rights. You questioned that. I gave you the easy example of sports. I could give others but let's just leave it at that. You know full well that I am right in that all trans advocacy groups are are supportive of males in female sports and have provided no evidence to the contrary. It's an easy example of the demand for special rights that other people don't have.

It doesn't affect me. I'm not going to bike race against Emily Bridges or swim against Lia Thomas because I'm not a woman. It doesn't mean I can't call out the injustice against women who will be affected.

Why do you care so much about validating the feelings of men and so little about the feelings of the women on the other side of this?
 

Raven

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I didn't question anything.

I just said that everyone should be free to be whoever they want to be, you might not like that, but that's a you problem.
 

Wij

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I didn't question anything.

I just said that everyone should be free to be whoever they want to be, you might not like that, but that's a you problem.
What "special rights" are people asking for?

A question, that was answered.

And you indicated earlier that you supported the decision for British cycling thereby disagreeing with the demands of trans organisations for sport in general so you aren't fully in agreement that people "should be free to be whoever they want to be" in all regards, in particular males being free to win female sports.
 

Raven

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I didn't indicate anything.

I quite clearly said. "Obviously males, transitioned to female, shouldn't compete vs natural-born females, for all sorts of physiological reasons."

I also said that you are working on the extremes, "trans organisations" whatever they might be, do not represent normal people.
 

Wij

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I didn't indicate anything.

I quite clearly said. "Obviously males, transitioned to female, shouldn't compete vs natural-born females, for all sorts of physiological reasons."

I also said that you are working on the extremes, "trans organisations" whatever they might be, do not represent normal people.
No they represent the demands for "special rights" for people who identify as trans which is exactly what Osy said which you denied. Those demands exist. Are the demands of the mainstream LGBT groups and all trans rights organisations fringe now? That's a fairly broad definition of fringe which doesn't undercut what Osy claimed and you questioned at all.
 

Raven

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That's a lot of bollocks to say that you want people to live their lives the way you want them to.

They won't. Get over it.
 

Wij

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That's a lot of bollocks to say that you want people to live their lives the way you want them to.

They won't. Get over it.
Not at all. I am just making it clear that when you questioned the claim that people are demanding special rights for people who claim a trans identity that you were wrong to question it. The fact that people are demanding special rights is easily proved.

I couldn't give a shit if men want to wear dresses and lipstick but they can still keep the fuck out of women's sports.
 

Raven

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So, you're angry about something that doesn't happen.

You're an idiot. Bought and paid for by right wing loons.
 

TdC

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I couldn't give a shit if men want to wear dresses and lipstick but they can still keep the fuck out of women's sports.
It's contrary to the current Hollywood "message". In films people can see a 50kg woman kick the shite out of a burley bloke and walk away. Sure its a film and all, but that differentiation is not something everyone is aware of imo. MvF are often not presented in a believable/non-immersion breaking manner, but that is the example given.

In Atomic Blonde (otherwise a cracker of a film btw) Charlize Theron kicks the absolute shite out of multiple triple 'ard fellas while taking a significant beating in return. She herself looks about as built as a twig. Any "buuuuutttt she got special magic spy training Teeds you twat" doesn't hold cos her sparring partners are also spies and assumably have a similar level of training. While the film is a banger, its utterly unrealistic. In GI Jane, Demi Moore's character is presented as physically working herself to a level of fitness that is unprecedented within the army facility she is going for, and she almost kills herself getting there. In fact, major plot points in the film hover around her character's physical and mental wellbeing, which to me is an extremely crucial element to the believability of the story. Were she to then proceed to go on a rampage à la Theron's spy character in Atomic Blonde, it would be FAR more believable as she was ripped as fuck, and the audience fundamentally knows this because they saw her endure the training programme to get to this level of fitness, and, again, crucially, also was privy to the problems she experienced along the way. Don't bitch about that's all fiction blah blah blah; I reckon my examples are what is presented as normal in media, and that's not how things work. In writing an audience does not tend to bond well with an antagonist that just "gets things" because of plot magic. People empathize because of what a character is enduring, overcoming, not because they share their successes. Especially in the more recent Atomic Blonde, where the spy gets away with murder and bounces back from severe beatings because this is what the plot says she can do, cos she a spy innit. To the writer's credit, Theron does actually take hits and suffers from them. Kudos and Marvel, take heed! </nerd>

While I 100% agree the average woman can most certainly get the drop on the average bloke in a fight, given biology its simply not gonna happen all the time, outliers not even considered. My neighbor over the road is a young girl who's an Olympic level wrestler. Vs me or probably most people, no contest: she wins every time at basically anything physical. I mean, she's an athlete that trains every day; I'm an IT guy who sits on chairs for a living. Up against a gender swapped version of herself? In sports or most physical things, no chance. My line of reckoning lies mostly along the internet memes I think: what is likely to happen will happen; aka if you look like you can beat the crap out of your competition, you usually can. It doesn't matter if its wrestling or competitive lawn darts or being an IT nerd.
 

old.Osy

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I feel we've overused the subject of trans rights (read, regular human rights, nothing special or extra should be there).

Stop the entitlement of loonies or people who have nothing going in their lives except fake outrage and having to wear a dress or purple hair not to despair over a bottle of pills because their life is shit and they would rather go on psycho tangents than fix it.

There, I said it.
 

Wij

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People in later life may come out as liking a bit of both seems to be a high level summary.

One thought though. The article continually talks about fluid sexual identity and stuff like that and at first I didn't have a clue what it was talking about. It was only when it mentioned moving away from a heterosexual identity that I realised it meant what I would call sexual orientation. The language is not obvious to me.

Then couple that with the rather surprising finding that claiming to be moving 'sexual identity' seems to be more prevalent amongst less educated people and also non-white people, who would be less likely to have English as a first language, and I do wonder if the questions were not particularly well worded. I was confused by the article and I'm reasonably well informed on this stuff.

Anyway, that's just something to think about. I haven't seen the original research but poor quality studies aren't exactly uncommon.
 

Scouse

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I actually think the high-level summary is people change throughout their lives, with spikes early and late for what seem like reasonable reasons, but I don't really disagree with any of what you said @Wij.

It occurs to me that we know in many ways languages (and education) are straightjackets. People who speak multiple languages fluently (as in, they can think in that language rather than just translate) are more flexible in their thoughts (amongst loads of other advantages). And if you're more flexible in your thoughts, maybe that translates to being less rigid with what you find attractive. That could explain the non-white/english as a first language bit.

We know that to do well in school you have to be rigidly self disciplined in some ways, maybe that in some way translates to a desire to define yourself more rigidly, or maybe cleverer people can be more reluctant to put themselves out there because they're more fearful of the potential negative consequences and are better at suppressing their desires (makes sense, "I want to go out on my bike" as opposed to "I'd better stay in and do my homework")...

Meh, whatevs. It's that "gender fluidity" (or whatever) isn't just kids experimenting is it...
 

Wij

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I actually think the high-level summary is people change throughout their lives, with spikes early and late for what seem like reasonable reasons, but I don't really disagree with any of what you said @Wij.

It occurs to me that we know in many ways languages (and education) are straightjackets. People who speak multiple languages fluently (as in, they can think in that language rather than just translate) are more flexible in their thoughts (amongst loads of other advantages). And if you're more flexible in your thoughts, maybe that translates to being less rigid with what you find attractive. That could explain the non-white/english as a first language bit.

We know that to do well in school you have to be rigidly self disciplined in some ways, maybe that in some way translates to a desire to define yourself more rigidly, or maybe cleverer people can be more reluctant to put themselves out there because they're more fearful of the potential negative consequences and are better at suppressing their desires (makes sense, "I want to go out on my bike" as opposed to "I'd better stay in and do my homework")...

Meh, whatevs. It's that "gender fluidity" (or whatever) isn't just kids experimenting is it...
It wasn't about gender though. Maybe you aren't highly educated enough to understand it. Or your first language is Liverbollox.

:)
 

Scouse

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Yeah yeah, I should have said "sexual fluidity" or somesuch bollocks. It's not the "gender" thread you know ;)
 

Wij

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Brutal:

“When I decided I was going to detransition, they discharged me,” she claimed. “They just instantly said, okay, you’re no longer a patient here, and if you want to see us again, you have to go to the beginning of the waiting list. You’re on your own. And, of course, I had a mastectomy, which is really irreversible, so ….

Left her to deal with a fucked up body and mental issues by herself.

 

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