Is this what society has come to?

[Wij]

Finally we get to what I think is the crux of your and @Wij's argument.

Neither of you believe this is a thing. And as long as you both feel like that then all of the other arguments can carry no weight.

All I can say is that there's clearly, globally, a phenomenom that causes people to act or want to act like this. And regardless of "objective reality" as defined by science and gametes there's an "objective reality" which we don't need science to verify (but it happily could) that a small but significant proportion of humans, for whatever reasons, desire to act this way.

It is only rational and sensible for our governance systems to reflect and cater for these people. To act otherwise is oppressive, uncaring and unkind - as these systems are supposed to cater for all of us.

Right now, we're simply working through how we change our systems of governance so we can do that.

No. It’s not the crux of my argument. I want to know how we can have self Id without unfairly affecting women (mainly) in many situations and you have no answers.

But if you want to get onto the phenomenon itself, then besides the fact that it simply is irrational, like Scientology, there’s also the fact that a lot of the phenomenon isn’t Hayley Croppers who I think we’d all be happy to accommodate. A much larger proportion is this (thread):


View: https://mobile.twitter.com/WomenReadWomen/status/1509830719698501636

 

[DaGaffer]

Finally we get to what I think is the crux of your and @Wij's argument.

Neither of you believe this is a thing. And as long as you both feel like that then all of the other arguments can carry no weight.

All I can say is that there's clearly, globally, a phenomenom that causes people to act or want to act like this. And regardless of "objective reality" as defined by science and gametes there's an "objective reality" which we don't need science to verify (but it happily could) that a small but significant proportion of humans, for whatever reasons, desire to act this way.

It is only rational and sensible for our governance systems to reflect and cater for these people. To act otherwise is oppressive, uncaring and unkind - as these systems are supposed to cater for all of us.

Right now, we're simply working through how we change our systems of governance so we can do that.

I DO think it's a thing. Not the thing people think it is, and the "solution" to that thing is woefully misguided on more levels than I can count, but it's definitely a thing.

 

[Scouse]

I DO think it's a thing. Not the thing people think it is, and the "solution" to that thing is woefully misguided on more levels than I can count, but it's definitely a thing.

Fair enough. There's all sorts of ways to skin a cat then. But allowing self-ID on passports? Meh, I really can't bring myself to care. It's a mountain being made out of a molehill. Other cultures deal with trans folks much better than in our christian-hangover western cultures so it CAN be done.

The niche issue and the glaring sporting issues will get sorted out by the relevant authorities who can dedicate the time and resources to sorting them out. In the meantime people are gonna scream about it.

Edit:
If your base argument is that we're doing something fucking stupid then fair enough. But we do so many more things that are way more stupid than the way we're handling trans shit - so why focus on this at all?

 

[DaGaffer]

Fair enough. There's all sorts of ways to skin a cat then. But allowing self-ID on passports? Meh, I really can't bring myself to care. It's a mountain being made out of a molehill. Other cultures deal with trans folks much better than in our christian-hangover western cultures so it CAN be done.

The niche issue and the glaring sporting issues will get sorted out by the relevant authorities who can dedicate the time and resources to sorting them out. In the meantime people are gonna scream about it.

Edit:
If your base argument is that we're doing something fucking stupid then fair enough. But we do so many more things that are way more stupid than the way we're handling trans shit - so why focus on this at all?

Slippery slopism.

I really don't get you. If this was a church demanding we put our religion on our passports or our political allegiance, or any other thing we do or believe, you'd be manning the barricades in a heartbeat, but someone throws on a frock and demands we call him Ma'am, legally, and you're fine with it.

Your dealings with the state, and the state's protections of you, should be based on what you are (colour, age, sex,) not what you choose to do (gender, religion, politics), and in fact should stay out of things you do to the maximum extent.

 

[Tom]

Disagree. World Rugby for instance have banned trans women from playing women's rugby because it's dangerous. Wheres the culture war there?

Because things like that get splashed on every right-wing website and Daily-Mail-type publication as though it's representative of everyday life, when the reality is that they're fringe cases. They do it to create outrage, ignoring things like the much higher rates of suicide amongst trans people (for example).

I'm not saying examples like that mightn't be problematic, the truth is I don't know and it's a complicated situation that I'm not going to spend any more time investigating. It isn't something I care that deeply about. But I at least recognise that it's being blown massively out of proportion by many people who are simply bigoted.

 

[Scouse]

Your dealings with the state, and the state's protections of you, should be based on what you are (colour, age, sex,)

Don't necessarily disagree with this. (There's an argument that the state should be colourblind, age-blind and sex-blind - because the state should be protecting you because you're human and it should end there.)

However, if we're separating sex and gender (with gender being the traits that you exhibit) then maybe you are that gender - at that point in time.

It's quite reasonable to posit that whilst some human traits are fixed and immutable, some equally valid traits are fluid - and to treat humans fairly, we can and maybe should recognise that and treat accordingly.

 

[Scouse]

If this was a church demanding we put our religion on our passports

Are you 100% sure that trans is a belief in something we have no evidence for?

There's not an equivalence between being trans and worshipping a sky-fairy. This is false.

 

[Wij]

However, if we're separating sex and gender (with gender being the traits that you exhibit) then maybe you are that gender - at that point in time.

Today I am GRUMPY. Please makes laws to accommodate me.

 

[Wij]

Are you 100% sure that trans is a belief in something we have no evidence for?

There's not an equivalence between trans and sky-fairy. This is false.

Show me a way to prove someone's gender.

 

[Scouse]

BTW:

to treat humans fairly, we can and maybe should recognise that and treat accordingly.

"treat accordingly" isn't a big deal - it's "put gender on passport" and shit like that.

 

[Scouse]

Show me a way to prove someone's gender.

Show me a way to ask god if he's real.

Last time I looked god never self-identified. (It would certainly make a lot of things easier!)

 

[Wij]

BTW:

"treat accordingly" isn't a big deal - it's "put gender on passport" and shit like that.

And your proposal for sports, prisons etc is what? Define accordingly.

 

[Wij]

Show me a way to ask god if he's real.

Last time I looked god never self-identified. (It would certainly make a lot of things easier!)

It is not provable just like gender.

Should we put other non-provable stuff on passports. I was Ceasar in a past life. You can't disprove it.

 

[Scouse]

And your proposal for sports, prisons etc is what? Define accordingly.

Oh bugger off @Wij. I've said multiple times that sporting authorities are best placed to fix any problems and are doing so - and I don't care how that works out in the end. That's up to the sporting authorities.

Prisons is easy to deal with. There's a few ways it could go. None of which I feel strongly about.

Neither concern of yours trumps the main one IMO - and until you demonstrate conclusively why they should it's the very last time I'll engage on it.

 

[Scouse]

It is not provable just like gender.

There's zero evidence for god.

You're the only person on the planet arguing that gender isn't real.

 

[Wij]

Oh bugger off @Wij. I've said multiple times that sporting authorities are best placed to fix any problems and are doing so - and I don't care how that works out in the end. That's up to the sporting authorities.

Prisons is easy to deal with. There's a few ways it could go. None of which I feel strongly about.

Neither concern of yours trumps the main one IMO - and until you demonstrate conclusively why they should it's the very last time I'll engage on it.

So you have no proposals. Let self-id happen and fingers crossed we'll work it out. Even though we've already identified several places there will be problems. You've even admitted some problems. But you won't offer any solution or justify why women and girls getting fucked over is ok actually.

That's just a dodge.

Just admit you don't care then. You put the interests of anyone who wants to claim to be trans for any reason over those of the people who will be adversely affected. Just say it if that's what you think.

 

[Wij]

There's zero evidence for god.

You're the only person on the planet arguing that gender isn't real.

Not even close. Show me a gender. Measure one. Explain how it works. Is it something we are born with and fixed, like a soul?

Are genders like, genderqueer, genderfuck, demi-romantic, astral etc real genders or just male and female (which seem really like the two sexes but they are like totally different.)

Sex exists. Laws based on sex exist. What laws can you make around gender if anyone can claim to be any gender and invent new ones every week? It's not remotely workable.

 

[DaGaffer]

Are you 100% sure that trans is a belief in something we have no evidence for?

There's not an equivalence between being trans and worshipping a sky-fairy. This is false.

To be believers of said sky-fairy it is absolutely NOT false. And that's the point, both things are beliefs. One is (in some cases) caused by a diagnosable psychological condition (but not a mental illness, nope, no way, no siree Bob) and the other is caused by cultural conditioning. What's interesting is gender orthodoxy is now leaning VERY heavily into the cultural conditioning part, to the point where diagnosable gender dysphoria is completely unnecessary to the whole process of gender identification, it's "I feel therefore I am"

 

[Scouse]

"I feel therefore I am"

I think that's a massive oversimplification and not a true reflection of the reality.

"I feel like there's a god, therefore god exists" - yeah, that's palpably bullshit.

Gender is a social construct - based on characteristics that have strong associations, but not exclusive associations, with people's sex.

So it's a real thing borne of men and women exhibiting certain characteristics - not an imagined belief. And therefore it's simply a subset of normal human behaviour that we can cater for.

 

[Raven]

Just checking if anyone's opinion has changed?

 

[Scouse]

Just checking if anyone's opinion has changed?

Me n Gaff are talking about interesting stuff.

 

[DaGaffer]

I think that's a massive oversimplification and not a true reflection of the reality.

"I feel like there's a god, therefore god exists" - yeah, that's palpably bullshit.

Gender is a social construct - based on characteristics that have strong associations, but not exclusive associations, with people's sex.

So it's a real thing borne of men and women exhibiting certain characteristics - not an imagined belief. And therefore it's simply a subset of normal human behaviour that we can cater for.

I think there's a subset of trans people where that's the case and another subset (which is growing fast) which is being pandered to by well meaning idiots.

 

[Scouse]

I think there's a subset of trans people where that's the case and another subset (which is growing fast) which is being pandered to by well meaning idiots.

Quite possibly. Probable even.

But once the twitter storm dies down and we move onto the next thing the only ones left will be the genuine ones

 

[Wij]

Quite possibly. Probable even.

But once the twitter storm dies down and we move onto the next thing the only ones left will be the genuine ones

From the thread I posted earlier, in the words of leading members of the current trans rights movement, they believe that the essence of a woman is to be abused and enjoy it. They get off on this.

There are some I would call genuine in that they have severe gender dysphoria and a sex change operation removed that. They usually accept that they are not ‘actual’ women but appreciate the courtesy if offered. They are generally reviled by the transgender movement as truscum (look it up). They are absolutely a minority.

The leading thinkers of the current movement subscribe to a fetishised view of what a woman is and want to opt into it.

 

[Scouse]

You're going to say there's a specific movement that these people represent and that they represent all trans people now aren't you.

 

[Gwadien]

It's interesting that Wij seems to think that the 'genuine' cases also believe in the exact same thing as he does...

I'm fairly sure the vast majority of trans people would like to be accepted as male/female.

 

[Wij]

You're going to say there's a specific movement that these people represent and that they represent all trans people now aren't you.

I specifically said they didn’t but they are the loudest voices right now.

The actual largest portion of adult males who claim a trans identity in adulthood are AGP males.

 

[Wij]

It's interesting that Wij seems to think that the 'genuine' cases also believe in the exact same thing as he does...

I'm fairly sure the vast majority of trans people would like to be accepted as male/female.

E.g. Debbie Hayton.

Male or female sex or gender? I thought they were different or are we forgetting again?

 

[Gwadien]

E.g. Debbie Hayton.

Male or female sex or gender? I thought they were different or are we forgetting again?

Okay, and how do you know she represents the majority?

On her Wikipedia page it even says she...

 

[Aoami]

Hogwarts Legacy is Steam's best-selling game right now

Hogwarts Legacy is dominating 2023.

www.gamingbible.co.uk

Why do gamers hate women so much? (Unless they have cocks).