Is this what society has come to?

[Aoami]

*12* prisoners changed their gender.

12.

Moral panic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Which is roughly 10% of trans women who went into prison identifying as a women in 2021. That's quite a high turnover rate.

 

[Gwadien]

Which is roughly 10% of trans women who went into prison identifying as a women in 2021. That's quite a high turnover rate.

That 12 figure was the amount of trans women that were in female prisons.

But yeah, as Scouse said - there's pretty sensible solutions to this, the problem is that it's way juicy for it not to be a political issue.

 

[Scouse]

Which is roughly 10% of trans women who went into prison identifying as a women in 2021. That's quite a high turnover rate.

So what? They're all fucked up. It doesn't matter. Flip-flop away - it's like the Culture - be a girl, a boy, a shark, a mimetic-polyalloy, whatever you want to be.

Why do you care?

 

[Aoami]

That 12 figure was the amount of trans women that were in female prisons.

But yeah, as Scouse said - there's pretty sensible solutions to this, the problem is that it's way juicy for it not to be a political issue.

Then that figure is incorrect.

 

[Wij]

So what? They're all fucked up. It doesn't matter. Flip-flop away - it's like the Culture - be a girl, a boy, a shark, a mimetic-polyalloy, whatever you want to be.

Why do you care?

Because flipping their 'gender' somehow still means they can get the sex-based rights like female prison and female sports. If it was just gender, which was recognised as made-up bullshit based on adherence to outdated stereotypes, and nothing to do with sex, then it wouldn't matter. If you flip gender and get sex-based rights though it's a problem and will be abused. This was just one example.

I thought sex and gender were different so why should changing one change the other? Men certainly don't change sex when they pop on a skirt. If they are different things treat them differently.

 

[Wij]

And no, it's not equivalent to 'OMG what about the lesbians, they could be looking at titz too.' Lesbians are women. Women aren't bothered about being around lesbians. They have the same body. Many are bothered about ensuring that their intimate medical examinations etc are done by another woman, regardless of whether she bats for the other team. Totally different.

Also, I used to happily piss at the urinals next to transvestite men. It was fine. We all had cocks. No problem.

 

[BloodOmen]

I don't think I could change my stance on trans rights. Not at present anyway. Call me a bigot if you want, I'm ok with that, it's likely what I am.

My train of thought is; if you're born with a cock you're a bloke, it's that simple. With the exception of people with the very rare intergender

I would never deny peoples rights to live however they want to live, I'd sit down with a trans person, drink with them, forge friendships with them but I draw the line at biology UNTIL science catches up to the point where they can not only give trans people wombs but, guarantee their previous growth/bone density etc has carried over to their adult life too - Currently they can't do that, trans people that transition after puberty have a biology advantage over CIS females. Which is why there is so much back and forth for swimming, weight lifting etc. I agree with it in full. At first I was on the fence but after listening to interviews by people very much clued up in biology, I'm set in my ways now. As far as I see it, Trans 'Females' are just stealing sports from CIS females and that is absolutely wrong.

 

[Gwadien]

So all Trans people are trans because they want to beat cis females at competitions? Mkay.

 

[Raven]

The term "CIS" boils the piss out of me.

I couldn't give a fuck what people want to call themselves, but I don't need a box, thanks.

 

[Gwadien]

The term "CIS" boils the piss out of me.

I couldn't give a fuck what people want to call themselves, but I don't need a box, thanks.

I think it's the first time I've ever used it haha

 

[Tom]

I don't think I could change my stance on trans rights. Not at present anyway. Call me a bigot if you want, I'm ok with that, it's likely what I am.

My train of thought is; if you're born with a cock you're a bloke, it's that simple. With the exception of people with the very rare intergender

I would never deny peoples rights to live however they want to live, I'd sit down with a trans person, drink with them, forge friendships with them but I draw the line at biology UNTIL science catches up to the point where they can not only give trans people wombs but, guarantee their previous growth/bone density etc has carried over to their adult life too - Currently they can't do that, trans people that transition after puberty have a biology advantage over CIS females. Which is why there is so much back and forth for swimming, weight lifting etc. I agree with it in full. At first I was on the fence but after listening to interviews by people very much clued up in biology, I'm set in my ways now. As far as I see it, Trans 'Females' are just stealing sports from CIS females and that is absolutely wrong.

Did you also listen to interviews by people clued up in genetics, hormones and chromosomes? Or just biologists?

Honestly I don't get why people care. Sports is just being used by people to create a culture war. Changing rooms too. Just treat people as you find them and be happy that they're happy.

 

[Aoami]

Sports is just being used by people to create a culture war.

Interested to know why you think this?

 

[Wij]

Did you also listen to interviews by people clued up in genetics, hormones and chromosomes? Or just biologists?

Honestly I don't get why people care. Sports is just being used by people to create a culture war. Changing rooms too. Just treat people as you find them and be happy that they're happy.

Sports is actively making women lose out now. There was a bloke I read about the other day doing indoor rowing for older ladies who had broken all the records for that category to the point where actual women had stopped entering AND he still competed in men's categories.

 

[Scouse]

Interested to know why you think this?

Because like the prison thing these niche arguments can be put to one side whilst we deal with the non-controversial stuff. But they're being used to justify inaction.

 

[Scouse]

Sports is actively making women lose out now. There was a bloke I read about the other day doing indoor rowing for older ladies who had broken all the records for that category to the point where actual women had stopped entering AND he still competed in men's categories.

Yep. This is stupid. Clearly.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't do the passport and drivers licence shit tho eh?

Not all transgender people compete in elite sports do they?

 

[Wij]

Yep. This is stupid. Clearly.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't do the passport and drivers licence shit tho eh?

Not all transgender people compete in elite sports do they?

Back to passports and stuff then. It was asked earlier why something like gender which can't be proved or disproved needs to be on a passport. Why can't it just record sex which is factual. There's all kinds of beliefs people sincerely hold which we don't put on passports because why should we? Should we put star-signs and who they were in previous lives on there too? If sex and gender are different why conflate them all the time?

Can you prove what someone's gender thetan is?

 

[Lamp]

I don't care if you've got a big willy and want to be called Susan. Just don't rub it in my face.

 

[Scouse]

@Wij. I can't bring myself to care other than to say there's stuff we can do that won't hurt anyone (passport shit etc.) that will make a small but significant proportion of Eddie Izzards happy.

Other than the fact that I might find it all a bit silly why should I give a single shit. I don't care - and I think that's a healthier position than yours.

The world is full of stupid shit. This won't make a blind bit of difference to us, but make a significant number of people very happy.

 

[Wij]

@Wij. I can't bring myself to care other than to say there's stuff we can do that won't hurt anyone (passport shit etc.) that will make a small but significant proportion of Eddie Izzards happy.

Other than the fact that I might find it all a bit silly why should I give a single shit. I don't care - and I think that's a healthier position than yours.

The world is full of stupid shit. This won't make a blind bit of difference to us, but make a significant number of people very happy.

So it would STILL record sex? Which is factual and would drive all legal and regulatory stuff such as which sports you could compete in and which prison you go to?

 

[Scouse]

So it would STILL record sex? Which is factual and would drive all legal and regulatory stuff such as which sports you could compete in and which prison you go to?

Your passport doesn't do that. And unless we redesign passports (and the whole narrative) to state biological sex, preferred gender, whatever - then I can't give a fuck what's written there.

Why are you so angry about this? Why do you care?

 

[Wij]

Your passport doesn't do that. And unless we redesign passports (and the whole narrative) to state biological sex, preferred gender, whatever - then I can't give a fuck what's written there.

Why are you so angry about this? Why do you care?

That's what I'm proposing. If sex and gender are different, as you keep saying, then make them different. Have both so we can still legally distinguish sex for the purposes of maintaining current legal protections around sex. There are legal requirements around providing single-sex spaces in all kinds of places. If gender is different then record it but it shouldn't affect obligations related to sex. You can't have it both ways.

Why do I care? Because I'm a human being. Just because it doesn't affect me doesn't mean I don't care. I can still care about racism even though as a white person it doesn't really affect me. What a frigging question.

 

[Scouse]

Why do I care? Because I'm a human being. Just because it doesn't affect me doesn't mean I don't care. I can still care about racism even though as a white person it doesn't really affect me. What a frigging question.

You only seem to care because of protected spaces and sports.

In the absence of redesigning passports (which may be an international agreement we can't easily change) then just "whatever" the sex box and adjust the processes around protected spaces and sports.

Job jobbed. Then we can all stop making mountains over this particular molehill.

 

[Wij]

Ok so if people can freely elect their gender, which of the following should be segregated by sex and which by gender?

Prisons
Sports
Womens shelters
Intimate medical exams
Anti-sex discrimination legal protections

 

[BloodOmen]

The term "CIS" boils the piss out of me.

I couldn't give a fuck what people want to call themselves, but I don't need a box, thanks.

Agree, I only use it because they use it.

 

[gunner440]

Ok so if people can freely elect their gender, which of the following should be segregated by sex and which by gender?

Prisons
Sports
Womens shelters
Intimate medical exams
Anti-sex discrimination legal protections

Prisons - segregate by sex
Sports - segregate by sex or no segregation
Womens shelters - trick question, only for women who menstruate or whatever it was JK Rowling used to describe traditional women.
Intimate medical exams - dick doctor or gyaecologist depending if you have a penis or vagina so err... segregate by sex?
Anti-sex discrimination legal protections - I don't know what this is?

 

[Scouse]

Ok so if people can freely elect their gender, which of the following should be segregated by sex and which by gender?

Prisons
Sports
Womens shelters
Intimate medical exams
Anti-sex discrimination legal protections

I refer the right honourable gentleman to the same answer I've been giving for about a year now )and on the other page).

Just repeat the same shit about niche problems as a reason why we shouldn't make hundreds of thousands of people happier why don't ya?

 

[Wij]

I refer the right honourable gentleman to the same answer I've been giving for about a year now )and on the other page).

Just repeat the same shit about niche problems as a reason why we shouldn't make hundreds of thousands of people happier why don't ya?

So sex all the way yes?

 

[Gwadien]

Ok so if people can freely elect their gender, which of the following should be segregated by sex and which by gender?

Prisons
Sports
Womens shelters
Intimate medical exams
Anti-sex discrimination legal protections

Prisons - Prisons can deal with it, use a bit of common sense, if someone is blatantly taking the piss put them in isolation until they've proven that they're serious and started a regime.

If they're legit trans then let them into prison populace, if they start sexually assaulting other prisoners then they get treated like (soz) cis-women who sexually assault other prisoners.

Sports - School sports? who gives a shit, losing is good for character building. Elite sports? Yeah, I agree, should probably fall under the same legislation that stops women pumping themselves with shit they shouldn't be.

Womens' shelters - Up to the shelters, and I'd imagine most would operate on a sex basis which is fair enough...

Intimate medical exams - I'm assuming you're talking about a trans nurse/doctor? - If so, request another nurse/doctor if you're uncomfortable, just like you can now.

Anti-sex discrimination legal protections - not really sure what you mean by this.

 

[Scouse]

So sex all the way yes?

It matters not to me. Let them change their passport to penguin. Let them change their official NHS records to pangolin. Let them change it wherever they fucking like.

The stuff that you're bothered about - that's for the sporting and prison authorities to figure out. I don't much care. It's a storm in a teacup.

 

[Aoami]

Sports - School sports? who gives a shit, losing is good for character building. Elite sports? Yeah, I agree, should probably fall under the same legislation that stops women pumping themselves with shit they shouldn't be.

I disagree with this entirely, and see it the other way round. I doubt it's much of an issue at school level, but at grassroots, if it's causing women to not want to participate in sports in fear of getting hurt for instance (note Rugby has now banned transgender women from competing against people born female) then this is way worse than a few noses being put out of joint at the elite level.