Is this what society has come to?

[Wij]

Also there is pressure from this community that tries to assign gender dysmorphia to every symptom.

I fancy the same sex = You must really be the opposite sex.
I like to play with toy trains even though I'm a girl = You must be a transman.

It's trying to medicalise/deny homosexuality as a disorder and deny that anyone can behave as they see fit.

We should be saying to kids, you can be a woman who fancies women, has short hair and loves motorbikes. That's fine. We shouldn't automatically be asking if they want to be a man.

 

[Gwadien]

Okay, so I do have some sympathy for that argument; you can't change who you're attracted to - I've never seen it be an issue and I highly doubt there's been any legal cases over it, so I dunno, kind of a non-issue.

The problem that I do have, and in particular with BloodOmen's argument is that somehow teaching kids about sexuality is somehow more damaging to children who are gay than telling them to keep quiet about it, I really do not understand it. I draw the line at surgical operations before 16, but we're talking about a boy being gay here, let's no lose the parameters of the argument.

I just feel like this is a massive 1960s throwback attitude.

I wasn't having a personal dig at you BO, but it is genuinely concerning, not just for your children but for your children's peers. I dunno if you have internet opinions and real life opinions but for a child what you're saying here could be very easily interpreted as homosexuality is wrong.

I've seen kids come up to other kids who are a minority in some form or another and said straight up homophobic/racist/sexist etc stuff, no idea that it's wrong, but Parents have said stuff that they've overheard that they then repeat in school, and that's a massive nah for progression in school.

 

[Scouse]

Outside of very fringe radicalists, who get way too much airtime in the media because idiots buy shit that outrages them, just so they can feel *something*, I don't think unreasonable things are going on @Wij.

Bloodomen is suggesting that school is a place where kids are pressured by the authorities - getting shit "rammed down their necks" - when it's anything but. Because he's lost all perspective.

Schools are generally safe spaces. Kids are shits. Some kill themselves and whilst that's tragic it's not the school's fault for factually educating children.

Militant idiots aside, because humans are humans and will do whatever they want with information, the science is the science, and no amount of denialist head-in-the-sand claptrap can refute it.

But ultimately, once you filter out the millitants, does it matter that much? Does it bother anyone that much? If someone tells a lesbian that she's discriminating because she won't stroke a cock under a dress, will anyone but idiots give the slightest fuck?

 

[Wij]

Yes, because these idiots create hate-groups and dox people.

 

[BloodOmen]

Outside of very fringe radicalists, who get way too much airtime in the media because idiots buy shit that outrages them, just so they can feel *something*, I don't think unreasonable things are going on @Wij.

Bloodomen is suggesting that school is a place where kids are pressured by the authorities - getting shit "rammed down their necks" - when it's anything but. Because he's lost all perspective.

Schools are generally safe spaces. Kids are shits. Some kill themselves and whilst that's tragic it's not the school's fault for factually educating children.

Militant idiots aside, because humans are humans and will do whatever they want with information, the science is the science, and no amount of denialist head-in-the-sand claptrap can refute it.

But ultimately, once you filter out the millitants, does it matter that much? Does it bother anyone that much? If someone tells a lesbian that she's discriminating because she won't stroke a cock under a dress, will anyone but idiots give the slightest fuck?

Errr no? when did I specifically say school authorities were responsible for it? I never even mentioned authorities, I believe what I actually said was "People at schools", I didn't specifically point the finger in any direction. You realise schools do invite people to speak about such subjects, right? some of which are quite controversial to the point where their parents won't let their kids attend.

 

[Wij]

Alison Moyet had to delete a tweet where she made the mistake of referring to herself as a woman and has been getting hassled ever since. These entitled, outraged men make nuisances of themselves whilst shouting down actual transexuals (who've been through the op) as being irrelevant and transphobic

 

[BloodOmen]

Okay, so I do have some sympathy for that argument; you can't change who you're attracted to - I've never seen it be an issue and I highly doubt there's been any legal cases over it, so I dunno, kind of a non-issue.

The problem that I do have, and in particular with BloodOmen's argument is that somehow teaching kids about sexuality is somehow more damaging to children who are gay than telling them to keep quiet about it, I really do not understand it. I draw the line at surgical operations before 16, but we're talking about a boy being gay here, let's no lose the parameters of the argument.

I just feel like this is a massive 1960s throwback attitude.

I wasn't having a personal dig at you BO, but it is genuinely concerning, not just for your children but for your children's peers. I dunno if you have internet opinions and real life opinions but for a child what you're saying here could be very easily interpreted as homosexuality is wrong.

I've seen kids come up to other kids who are a minority in some form or another and said straight up homophobic/racist/sexist etc stuff, no idea that it's wrong, but Parents have said stuff that they've overheard that they then repeat in school, and that's a massive nah for progression in school.

I'm not saying homosexuality is wrong, I have absolutely no issues with gay people, if you've picked that up from something I've said that really wasn't the intention.

 

[DaGaffer]

Who ever ever ever ever ever ever has been in a situation where they're like 'nah, I don't like you because you're black/white/brown/orange/woman/man/etc etc etc.

Unless said person is out to try and get a response.

I’ve had a women say to my face she didn’t like me because I was British (I wasn’t even talking to her, I was chatting her friend up). That do you?

As for the other way around, there are millions of people I’m very much not attracted to, and that will often be because of their physical characteristics; is that wrong now?

 

[Scouse]

Errr no? when did I specifically say school authorities were responsible for it? I never even mentioned authorities, I believe what I actually said was "People at schools", I didn't specifically point the finger in any direction. You realise schools do invite people to speak about such subjects, right? some of which are quite controversial to the point where their parents won't let their kids attend.

"some of which are quite controversial to the point where their parents won't let their kids attend"
That's always been the case. Some parents are utter pricks. The teachers know better than them.

 

[Scouse]

there are millions of people I’m very much not attracted to, and that will often be because of their physical characteristics; is that wrong now?

Lies Gaff.

You love the cock.

 

[Job]

The wife is head of pastrol in a girls school.
She gets 4 or 5 girls deciding to be genderless or wanting to become a boy each year.
This was zero 10 years ago.
She can tell you exactly the age they want it..what social media groups they are on...how long they have crushes on other girls and the exact age they kick it all in the bin, discover boys and start wearing skirts again.
They are all without exception fat, plain and self harm.
Its a problem..but not a gender/sexuality..its a body idealism problem.

 

[Wij]

Um.


View: https://twitter.com/HJJoyceEcon/status/1034898121078333441

 

[Wij]

Thread from a feminist who is sick of men trying to redefine what a woman is supposedly in the name of trans rights:


View: https://twitter.com/radicalhag/status/1034910968306978816


Good read. Read the whole thing.

 

[Scouse]

Got bored the second she started blaming "men" and had clear confusion about the terms sex and gender and what they mean.

I ultimately think that the main issue is probably the binary nature of descriptors in the english language. But I don't really give that much of a fuck

 

[Wij]

Got bored the second she started blaming "men" and had clear confusion about the terms sex and gender and what they mean.

I ultimately think that the main issue is probably the binary nature of descriptors in the english language. But I don't really give that much of a fuck

She's blaming those men who think they should be allowed to redefine what woman means against both science and the wishes of most women.

 

[Scouse]

She's blaming those men who think they should be allowed to redefine what woman means against both science and the wishes of most women.

Had another go.

She's fucking ranting. She's not being explicit about whether she's talking about sex or gender - so her argument is a non-argument in the first place. What is she actually fucked off about? She hasn't defined her parameters and is clearly confusing the terms.

She lays the blame at the door of "men" (like it's the fucking patriarchy's fault for all this shit - the judao-christian religion gave the vast majority of people what were to them perfectly acceptable definitions for sex at least) and is generally less coherent than Bloodomen moaning about kids who commit suicide because schools are obviously evil places that ram shit down kids throats.

Her writing has flow. That's pretty much all I've got positive to say about it.

 

[Wij]

Had another go.

She's fucking ranting. She's not being explicit about whether she's talking about sex or gender - so her argument is a non-argument in the first place. What is she actually fucked off about? She hasn't defined her parameters and is clearly confusing the terms.

She lays the blame at the door of "men" (like it's the fucking patriarchy's fault for all this shit - the judao-christian religion gave the vast majority of people what were to them perfectly acceptable definitions for sex at least) and is generally less coherent than Bloodomen moaning about kids who commit suicide because schools are obviously evil places that ram shit down kids throats.

Her writing has flow. That's pretty much all I've got positive to say about it.

She is ranting about the idea that self-identifying as a woman means you are a woman. A woman is a human female. Being female is a biological thing. Your feelings or declarations don’t affect it.

I really don’t see that as controversial.

 

[Scouse]

I really don’t see that as controversial.

She's mixing up gender and sex.

And blaming men for the whole situation (which is bullshit).

And it still doesn't really matter that much...

 

[DaGaffer]

Jesus what a load of fucking bollocks. This is exactly why arguments claiming "gender" has nothing to do with physiology are such bollocks. If you try to co-opt the word "woman" (or man) to mean "what I feel I am" you end up rendering the word meaningless. I can see entirely why women might get irritated when a bloke who's had his dick cut off comes along and tells them they need to redefine their identity to suit someone else's definition. Its like colonisation of the female sex. I don't give a shit how much surgery transsexuals have, how many hormones they take, they're not women. They're not men either anymore, but they're not women, and they don't get to edit reality to suit their wish-fulfilment fantasies.

 

[Scouse]

They're not men either anymore

Oh?

Being a man is predicated on having a dick? So, like, soldiers who get their bits blown off aren't men any more?

Gender and sex people. I'd say "it's not difficult" but it is tbh. And like I said - I think it's because our language doesn't really help. But the science is easy - it's just what people want to do with it that becomes problematic.

And again, really, fucks given. I don't understand why that woman cares if a bloke calls himself a woman. I don't care if a woman calls herself a man after surgery.

Does anyone here? Does it cut to the core of your very being and offend you? Or do just move on?

 

[DaGaffer]

Oh?

Being a man is predicated on having a dick? So, like, soldiers who get their bits blown off aren't men any more?

Gender and sex people. I'd say "it's not difficult" but it is tbh. And like I said - I think it's because our language doesn't really help. But the science is easy - it's just what people want to do with it that becomes problematic.

And again, really, fucks given. I don't understand why that woman cares if a bloke calls himself a woman. I don't care if a woman calls herself a man after surgery.

Does anyone here? Does it cut to the core of your very being and offend you? Or do just move on?

Whataboutery. A man is predicated on having a Y chromosome. (and please don't engage in yet more whataboutery about intersex, XXY or whatever, for the vast majority of humanity XX, XY is the definition). And yes, people do clearly give a fuck because people are pretending to be something they're not and expect everyone else to go along with it. I couldn't care less what people do to themselves in pursuit of unattainable ideals, but that's not the same as agreeing to play pretend.

 

[Scouse]

Whataboutery. A man is predicated on having a Y chromosome. (and please don't engage in yet more whataboutery about intersex, XXY or whatever, for the vast majority of humanity XX, XY is the definition).

So you're talking about sex, right?

Cool. You mix 'em up too.

And yes, people do clearly give a fuck because people are pretending to be something they're not and expect everyone else to go along with it.

And again - this is affecting you how? Other than we're discussing on a forum and there's some shit in the newspapers.


Edit: I guess a lot of the gender "controversy" is around the people at the extreme edges.

 

[dysfunction]

What's being mixed up exactly?

 

[Scouse]

What's being mixed up exactly?

This.

But to be fair, I get fucked off with militant wankers too.

 

[DaGaffer]

So you're talking about sex, right?

Cool. You mix 'em up too.



And again - this is affecting you how? Other than we're discussing on a forum and there's some shit in the newspapers.

You can participate in a lie if you want, I'm less inclined to do that. And the gender doesn't equal sex argument is because someone has decided that, not because its actually true.

So what is the sex definition? Male and Female? And men and women is a "gender" definition? Who decided that?

 

[Scouse]

Who decided that?

I'm not the defender of the standards, and won't try to be.

What I do accept tho is that there IS a difference and always has been. Have a look at this, for example.

 

[DaGaffer]

I'm not the defender of the standards, and won't try to be.

What I do accept tho is that there IS a difference and always has been. Have a look at this, for example.

That's not the argument here, in fact it reinforces my point. "Women" are being told that post-op transexuals are now also "women", when in fact they are something else entirely, as is recognised by the article you posted. In those cultures the "third sex" or whatever you want to call it, is identifiable, that's not what's going on in that twitter thread.

 

[Wij]

That's not the argument here, in fact it reinforces my point. "Women" are being told that post-op transexuals are now also "women", when in fact they are something else entirely, as is recognised by the article you posted. In those cultures the "third sex" or whatever you want to call it, is identifiable, that's not what's going on in that twitter thread.

Actually they are being told that any man who claims he is a woman, is a woman. Cutting dick off is not even slightly necessary. Hence all the hate against lesbians who don't want dick. Honestly, lesbians being called transphobic because they don't like penises.

 

[Scouse]

That's not the argument here, in fact it reinforces my point. "Women" are being told that post-op transexuals are now also "women", when in fact they are something else entirely, as is recognised by the article you posted. In those cultures the "third sex" or whatever you want to call it, is identifiable, that's not what's going on in that twitter thread.

I'm not massively disagreeing with you - I've pointed out several times that the controversy is probably primarily a failure of our language and the intertwining of sex and gender.

Frankly, it shouldn't be as controversial as it is.

lesbians being called transphobic because they don't like penises.

So, idiots exist that call people names. I'm sure those lesbians are absolutely devestated

It doesn't negate the fact that there are more than two genders. Or that it doesn't really matter.

 

[Job]

Um.


View: https://twitter.com/HJJoyceEcon/status/1034898121078333441

Well she is spot on about the ideal woman..though I dont think middle class is important.