Is this what society has come to?

Gwadien

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Fucking hell. Re-engineering everything isn’t a practical solution. All you can do in that regard is mandate in new builds.

The irony with the rest of your comment is if there was a mechanism for identifying “proper card-carrying trans women” this whole conversation would be moot. In the absence of that the precautionary principle should apply, and if that hurts a few feelings, tough.
Where would you send a trans woman then? In the Male changing rooms?

Seems fair.
 

Wij

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What about gay men in changing rooms? Most men wouldn't have a problem with women perving on them in the changing room, but I'm sure they'd kick off about gay men perving on them in changing rooms, why can't we get this addressed too?
Not answering the question still.
 

Scouse

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Was going to make the gay man argument but it's already done in this thread. @Wij's insistence on pointing at criminals and his expectance that non-criminals should have to suffer because criminals exist is a direct parallel - hence I'm ignoring his ridiculous demand for me to proffer a solution for a problem that is never going to go away - and, at best, just has different slants at different times.

@DaGaffer's almost got the answer tho:
The irony with the rest of your comment is if there was a mechanism for identifying “proper card-carrying trans women” this whole conversation would be moot. In the absence of that the precautionary principle should apply, and if that hurts a few feelings, tough.
As all this bullshit stems from cultural problems - and isn't the merest hint of a problem where the culture is different - then the feelings that can get hurt are those who aren't acceptant of trans people, until the culture changes.

Just like it did with gays.
 

Wij

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As all this bullshit stems from cultural problems - and isn't the merest hint of a problem where the culture is different - then the feelings that can get hurt are those who aren't acceptant of trans people, until the culture changes.
Women. Stop pissing men off!
 

DaGaffer

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Was going to make the gay man argument but it's already done in this thread. @Wij's insistence on pointing at criminals and his expectance that non-criminals should have to suffer because criminals exist is a direct parallel - hence I'm ignoring his ridiculous demand for me to proffer a solution for a problem that is never going to go away - and, at best, just has different slants at different times.

@DaGaffer's almost got the answer tho:

As all this bullshit stems from cultural problems - and isn't the merest hint of a problem where the culture is different - then the feelings that can get hurt are those who aren't acceptant of trans people, until the culture changes.

Just like it did with gays.
Way to ignore the first half of my statement. Ever considered a career in journalism? :rolleyes:
 

Scouse

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Women. Stop pissing men off!
Your definition of the issue is inadequate.

(And you're ignoring the other relevant points made)
Way to ignore the first half of my statement. Ever considered a career in journalism? :rolleyes:
I'd already conceded that point - that we should mandate it in new builds. - didn't feel the need to state it again :)

The point I made above is how we should treat non-single-sex changing rooms. Just as men had to put up with the incredibly upsetting ordeal of having gay men, who fancied them and looked at their cocks, in male changing rooms - women are going to have to "woman up" and put up with trans people who identify as women in the changing room.

Tough. Fucking. Titties.
 

Wij

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Tough. Fucking. Titties.
So it's fine. A man can declare himself a woman for whatever reason and sit in women's changing rooms having a perv yes? That is your position?
 

Scouse

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So it's fine. A man can declare himself a woman for whatever reason and sit in women's changing rooms having a perv yes? That is your position?
I've tried to engage with you sensibly on this - but you keep being silly because <insert whatever emotional failure you're having around this>.

My position is pretty clear above.
 

Wij

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I've tried to engage with you sensibly on this - but you keep being silly because <insert whatever emotional failure you're having around this>.

My position is pretty clear above.
It fucking isn't. You keep reframing the issue as about trans-women (without defining them) whereas I'm talking about the fact that given an inch men will take a mile and abuse the access as they are doing now. Your solutions have been thus far:
A.) Rebuild all public spaces.
B.) Tough shit bitches.

The specific issue I started with today you have haven't addressed directly at all.
 

Gwadien

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I think the fundamental problem is that you don't believe Trans is an actual thing, and they're all just pervy men.
 

Wij

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I think the fundamental problem is that you don't believe Trans is an actual thing, and they're all just pervy men.
Where did I say that?

I raise the issue of pervy men using trans as an excuse to invade women's space and you and Scouse just whine on about the poor (undefined) transwomen that I wasn't talking about.

Address the actual point.
 

Gwadien

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Where did I say that?

I raise the issue of pervy men using trans as an excuse to invade women's space and you and Scouse just whine on about the poor (undefined) transwomen that I wasn't talking about.

Address the actual point.
The whole thread is dedicated to questioning the legitimacy of Trans as a whole by picking up numerous subjects, that's where you've implied it over and over again, and I completely understand why you and Gaff are worried about it, because you don't want your children to be perved on by men pretending to be women, which in my opinion is ridiculous as suggesting because we legalised homosexuality all the kids were gonna turn into gay satan worshippers.

As for your 'point', I don't even believe it to be honest; for all I know it's been made up by some feminazi who is worried that Trans people will trash all over the rights women have gained, much like they also believe that men should be locked up on farms and used purely as sperm banks, because they're too harmful to society.

I also think that common sense over rides all your concerns; if you have a woman come in with an adams apple and walks into the womens changing rooms, goes into the pool, comes out and no-one has said anything, it appears that they're fine. If someone makes a complaint about them perving at other people, then sure, you can do something about it, I'm sure men walking into womens changing rooms has always been a thing anyway, not just invented because Trans has become more of an open thing.

I don't like the idea of denying people rights because they're not properly understood/feared. ;/
 

DaGaffer

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The whole thread is dedicated to questioning the legitimacy of Trans as a whole by picking up numerous subjects, that's where you've implied it over and over again, and I completely understand why you and Gaff are worried about it, because you don't want your children to be perved on by men pretending to be women, which in my opinion is ridiculous as suggesting because we legalised homosexuality all the kids were gonna turn into gay satan worshippers.

As for your 'point', I don't even believe it to be honest; for all I know it's been made up by some feminazi who is worried that Trans people will trash all over the rights women have gained, much like they also believe that men should be locked up on farms and used purely as sperm banks, because they're too harmful to society.

I also think that common sense over rides all your concerns; if you have a woman come in with an adams apple and walks into the womens changing rooms, goes into the pool, comes out and no-one has said anything, it appears that they're fine. If someone makes a complaint about them perving at other people, then sure, you can do something about it, I'm sure men walking into womens changing rooms has always been a thing anyway, not just invented because Trans has become more of an open thing.

I don't like the idea of denying people rights because they're not properly understood/feared. ;/
Actually it has nothing to do with worries about my children as my wife would comfortably kick any perv looking at my daughter into the middle of next week.

This is about the rights of women being sacrificed - without debate - at the hands of men.
 

Wij

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The whole thread is dedicated to questioning the legitimacy of Trans as a whole by picking up numerous subjects, that's where you've implied it over and over again, and I completely understand why you and Gaff are worried about it, because you don't want your children to be perved on by men pretending to be women, which in my opinion is ridiculous as suggesting because we legalised homosexuality all the kids were gonna turn into gay satan worshippers.

As for your 'point', I don't even believe it to be honest; for all I know it's been made up by some feminazi who is worried that Trans people will trash all over the rights women have gained, much like they also believe that men should be locked up on farms and used purely as sperm banks, because they're too harmful to society.

I also think that common sense over rides all your concerns; if you have a woman come in with an adams apple and walks into the womens changing rooms, goes into the pool, comes out and no-one has said anything, it appears that they're fine. If someone makes a complaint about them perving at other people, then sure, you can do something about it, I'm sure men walking into womens changing rooms has always been a thing anyway, not just invented because Trans has become more of an open thing.

I don't like the idea of denying people rights because they're not properly understood/feared. ;/
Still not addressing the point.

It does happen. As I mentioned men proudly post selfies of themselves doing it.

It's not illegal. Some changing rooms have signs telling them that if someone makes them uncomfortable then THEY are the problem. Women used to be able to complain about men coming in for a perv but now they are called transphobic if they do because woman is a state of mind, not a physical thing.

Answer these:
What are women who experience this supposed to do?
What criteria should they use to decide it's a perv, not a transwoman?
What can they do if they do determine it's a perv but the perv just insists 'I'm a woman, and the fact that I have a beard and a cock is nothing to do with it.'?
 

Gwadien

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Answer these:
What are women who experience this supposed to do?
What criteria should they use to decide it's a perv, not a transwoman?
What can they do if they do determine it's a perv but the perv just insists 'I'm a woman, and the fact that I have a beard and a cock is nothing to do with it.'?
1) The women that experience this should report to whoever they think is appropriate, take it the Police if necessary, sorry, but I fundamentally don't believe that the rest of society bar you and Gaffer believe that if you question a 'trans' person who is clearly using it as a cover to be a pervert, then you are trans phobic, I'm fairly sure that the Police wouldn't dismiss it either.

Question to your question though - What if Nob doesn't want gays in his changing room either because he thinks they're perverts too, 1) does that make him homophobic and 2) should society cater for him by removing the 'problem?' into their own changing rooms? I'm sure this happens, just anti-Trans is FOTM.

2) If said person is taking photos on social media, and other women are clearly worried about their behaviour, then they report it, and the establishment/police can do something about it, the idea that you can 'prevent' someone being a pervert by banning all trans people is kinda stupid.

Bit like the US banning all Muslims to stop terrorism, no?

3) Then you insist that they use a disabled changing rooms or something alternative, if they don't like it, go down the legal route, I'm fairly sure our courts have a degree of common sense that can find an easily solution which doesn't mean that you allow mass voyeurism, nor do you exclude a part of society because of the behaviour of people that aren't actually a part of their minority.

But considering I haven't seen any legal cases of anything that you've posted in this thread, just 'she said he said' twitter stuff, then I'd imagine there hasn't been anything serious enough to seriously upset someone, otherwise it would have happened by now.
 

Job

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Its all a cover up for society being mostly transphobic and still strongly homophobic.

How far have the pressure groups left reality to assume that forcing people to accept men in dresses in girls changing rooms will do anything but turn around any gains they have made by 1000%.
People who didnt care before are becoming anti trans as they force their way into sports/changing rooms and bathrooms.
We never hear from moderate trans people who just want to get on with an ordinary life and let society slowly accept them as the norm.
 

DaGaffer

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Its all a cover up for society being mostly transphobic and still strongly homophobic.

How far have the pressure groups left reality to assume that forcing people to accept men in dresses in girls changing rooms will do anything but turn around any gains they have made by 1000%.
I don’t think the society I live in is “strongly homophobic” at all; given we’ve had referenda on the subject (eg gay marriage) which was passed by a landslide I think I have decent empirical evidence to support that view.

I also think there is general public sympathy over trans-rights, but I also don’t think that equates to a free pass to what the fuck you want; that isn’t something that’s been tested with the public anywhere.
 

Gwadien

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I don’t think the society I live in is “strongly homophobic” at all; given we’ve had referenda on the subject (eg gay marriage) which was passed by a landslide I think I have decent empirical evidence to support that view.

I also think there is general public sympathy over trans-rights, but I also don’t think that equates to a free pass to what the fuck you want; that isn’t something that’s been tested with the public anywhere.
How do you work on a solution when your attitude is 'fuck them all even if some people who aren't even trans are the ones abusing it'?

When I actually come to think about it, all the 60s built swimming baths around me have single cubicles anyway.
 

Gwadien

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Its all a cover up for society being mostly transphobic and still strongly homophobic.

How far have the pressure groups left reality to assume that forcing people to accept men in dresses in girls changing rooms will do anything but turn around any gains they have made by 1000%.
People who didnt care before are becoming anti trans as they force their way into sports/changing rooms and bathrooms.
We never hear from moderate trans people who just want to get on with an ordinary life and let society slowly accept them as the norm.
That's because feminazis get much more attention on twitter by posting extreme stories than people who are upset because they feel discriminated against.
 

Scouse

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This is about the rights of women being sacrificed - without debate - at the hands of men.
No it isn't. This is specifically about pervs in dressing rooms - as wij has repeatedly said.

And again - I'll come back to even that criminality being a problem with western culture alone - not a problem with men specifically (men'll take any advantage, says Wij, like men are in some way worse than women (Wij the man-hater I see)).

If men going into changing rooms to perv on women was an issue that was anything other than cultural then societies that have no issues with transgender people would be suffering the exact same thing.

But they're not.


This (rare) behaviour is a reaction to new freedoms in western culture. - The fact that there's a tiny number of men that feel so tittilated and emancipated by the (new) freedoms quite rightly being given to transgender people (like gay people before them) that they turn into dicks because of this does not justify discrimination against law-abiding transgender people.

So it's western culture that's the issue - and western culture that needs to change - and you can't change our culture without upsetting cultural norms.

Just like men had to adjust to the knowledge that openly gay men were going to change alongside them (and who gives a fuck if they DO look at your junk?) women will have to adjust to the reality that trans people (who aren't interested in oogling them) are going to get changed in their vicinity - and it's women who'll have to change how they feel about that.

(And don't get pissy Wij just because I'm a man saying that - that's a load of sexist bullshit: intellectual argument is intellectual argument regardless of the sex of the person it comes from (and that's totally aside from the fact that there are women who feel exactly the same way)).



As for your specific problem of how to deal with this tiny number of western male dicks who are abusing this situation Wij? - the cultural shift will do that. When we can change alongside other humans (regardless of gender, sex, skin colour, tattoo choice or perfume preference) and aren't a bunch of sexually repressed giggling twats suffering a religious cultural hangover then the (practically non-existent) problem will go away.

Until then we'll have to muddle through as best we can - whilst attempting to preserve the rights of our transgender friends.

You seem to not want that change to happen. Just like a lot of people didn't want gay rights to be a thing and were outraged at the time. We're now the idiot old people that just don't get the new world.

And then we'll die off and the kids'll be fine*.




*apart from the impending ecological disaster that's going to kill them. :)
 

Job

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No its about the tightly woven societal norms that we learn as a group and individually...these give us clues as to intent and danger levels, people behave in ways in public to give others especially weaker females confidence that they are safe to be around and can be relied on to follow the written and unwritten rules, thats how society operates without us all carrying swords or guns.

A fucking man in a dress in a girls changing room shits all over that fundamental exchange of trust.

Even worse that is forced, there is no context for his appearance, he just decides to do it.

Its pulling the fucking rug from under a system that works on the edge as it is.
People are just going to start beating them up...simple.
 

Scouse

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Trans people have been getting beaten up in western societies for as long as they've been visibly trans (which isn't that long).

Trans people in other societies? Not a problem.

So it's not them, it's us.
 

Scouse

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People are just going to start beating them up...simple.
BTW - that's exactly what fucking knuckle dragging retards used to do to gay people (or people they thought were gay) in the 1980s.

Public toilets, swimming pools, just out and about.

The fact that that idea occurs to you says more about you than it says about anything tbh - but I absolutely concede that you are right - it's true. Assault will ensue. And it's trans people who are going to be on the receiving end of it (like they already are).

Scum are scum the world over you see - and they're generally dumb as fuck - so once the trans thing is over with, they'll move onto the next.
 

Job

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Yes.
Forcing us to accept them will only increase the tension
 

DaGaffer

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No it isn't. This is specifically about pervs in dressing rooms - as wij has repeatedly said.

And again - I'll come back to even that criminality being a problem with western culture alone - not a problem with men specifically (men'll take any advantage, says Wij, like men are in some way worse than women (Wij the man-hater I see)).

If men going into changing rooms to perv on women was an issue that was anything other than cultural then societies that have no issues with transgender people would be suffering the exact same thing.

But they're not.


This (rare) behaviour is a reaction to new freedoms in western culture. - The fact that there's a tiny number of men that feel so tittilated and emancipated by the (new) freedoms quite rightly being given to transgender people (like gay people before them) that they turn into dicks because of this does not justify discrimination against law-abiding transgender people.

So it's western culture that's the issue - and western culture that needs to change - and you can't change our culture without upsetting cultural norms.

Just like men had to adjust to the knowledge that openly gay men were going to change alongside them (and who gives a fuck if they DO look at your junk?) women will have to adjust to the reality that trans people (who aren't interested in oogling them) are going to get changed in their vicinity - and it's women who'll have to change how they feel about that.

(And don't get pissy Wij just because I'm a man saying that - that's a load of sexist bullshit: intellectual argument is intellectual argument regardless of the sex of the person it comes from (and that's totally aside from the fact that there are women who feel exactly the same way)).



As for your specific problem of how to deal with this tiny number of western male dicks who are abusing this situation Wij? - the cultural shift will do that. When we can change alongside other humans (regardless of gender, sex, skin colour, tattoo choice or perfume preference) and aren't a bunch of sexually repressed giggling twats suffering a religious cultural hangover then the (practically non-existent) problem will go away.

Until then we'll have to muddle through as best we can - whilst attempting to preserve the rights of our transgender friends.

You seem to not want that change to happen. Just like a lot of people didn't want gay rights to be a thing and were outraged at the time. We're now the idiot old people that just don't get the new world.

And then we'll die off and the kids'll be fine*.




*apart from the impending ecological disaster that's going to kill them. :)
Trans-rights have been hijacked by a cadre of misogynistic men - Stonewall is full of them
 

Scouse

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Yes.
Forcing us to accept them will only increase the tension
"Us" eh?

So you and your mates will beat a few trans up just like you used to beat on the gays.

Big deal. They'll get over it. And the world will move on.


Trans-rights have been hijacked by a cadre of misogynistic men - Stonewall is full of them
Maybe the argument about it has been (jumped onto the stonewall website - I'm not hugely aware of that argument) - but anyway it'll be a function of twatter and bookface that makes it seem that way. But trans rights are trans rights, no matter the noise around them created by <insert whatever a noisy twat says here>.

The onus is on us to bear in mind what we're actually talking about - (to quote stonewall): acceptance without exception.

The fact that some people are going to be dicks about things shouldn't mean we lose sight of what this is actually about - cultural adjustment towards acceptance of a subset of law-abiding people that offer us no harm, that work alongside us, live with us and just want to be who they are.
 

DaGaffer

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"Us" eh?

So you and your mates will beat a few trans up just like you used to beat on the gays.

Big deal. They'll get over it. And the world will move on.



Maybe the argument about it has been (jumped onto the stonewall website - I'm not hugely aware of that argument) - but anyway it'll be a function of twatter and bookface that makes it seem that way. But trans rights are trans rights, no matter the noise around them created by <insert whatever a noisy twat says here>.

The onus is on us to bear in mind what we're actually talking about - (to quote stonewall): acceptance without exception.

The fact that some people are going to be dicks about things shouldn't mean we lose sight of what this is actually about - cultural adjustment towards acceptance of a subset of law-abiding people that offer us no harm, that work alongside us, live with us and just want to be who they are.
Acceptance without exception...even if it tramples over other peoples' rights.
 

Scouse

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Acceptance without exception...even if it tramples over other peoples' rights.
"cultural adjustment towards acceptance of a subset of law-abiding people that offer us no harm, that work alongside us, live with us and just want to be who they are."

Is that better?

I mean - I don't like slogans particularly (acceptance without exception is reductive and doesn't convey nuance - so happy to ditch that - I don't "identify" with Stonewall, so their definition of the issue isn't mine). However, if you think that sentence above is "trampling" then women are being trampled upon just like straight men have been trampled upon.

In principle - other cultures don't have a problem with trans people. Ours does. Our culture needs adjustment. That's ethically correct. And there's going to be a period of time during this adjustment where people kick up a fucking stink about it. But we're old enough and jaded enough (and have lived through similar) to see that it's a storm in a fucking teacup.
 

Job

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Because there is no one ' in charge' of the trans movement and the entire Lbgt communtity are descending into a chaotic catfight , which is highly predictable..there is no one to reel them in for the better of the group.

Never have they been so despised while living in a fantasy world of acceptance...bit like the Lib dems.

The best approach is humility and let the bigots and conservatives hang themselves with their own prejudices.

Its a simple as being a polite new guest...we humans are open to anything if you package it just right.
 

dysfunction

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"cultural adjustment towards acceptance of a subset of law-abiding people that offer us no harm, that work alongside us, live with us and just want to be who they are."

Is that better?

I mean - I don't like slogans particularly (acceptance without exception is reductive and doesn't convey nuance - so happy to ditch that - I don't "identify" with Stonewall, so their definition of the issue isn't mine). However, if you think that sentence above is "trampling" then women are being trampled upon just like straight men have been trampled upon.

In principle - other cultures don't have a problem with trans people. Ours does. Our culture needs adjustment. That's ethically correct. And there's going to be a period of time during this adjustment where people kick up a fucking stink about it. But we're old enough and jaded enough (and have lived through similar) to see that it's a storm in a fucking teacup.
I get where you are coming from and having an ideal is great but the practical application is and will be different for the time being.

There are going to be people that will exploit an ideal so practicality needs to step in and respond to them.

Perhaps the ideology that you want may be 50 years from now. It takes time for these things to evolve.
 

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