Is the minstrel an overpowered class

[old.job]

I have dueled quite a few Minstrels and my Bard is no match WHATSOVER for them, I agree we aren't the same type of class, but insta mezz is unbeatable, my only hope is to catch them unawares mezz and run for my life.
Most players see us as an equal class because of the instruments/speed song.
I know a bard is a group character but it does piss me off that if I'm caught alone by one I have no chance to fight ,might as well sit down and take off my armour.

 

[old.Emma]

ok maybe double the hp was a little much, but i have exactly 809hp unbuffed yes 809hp. average tank would have around 1300-1500 depending on items/armour used, now seeing as i have a pretty high weapon spec of 38+7, 2 bracers of arms, rr2 and my weapon gives +4, and i still only hit for 60dmg, how many times would i have to hit them to kill em ? quite a few. 2 sets of dd`s would only do around 500-600dmg can only do one stun because of the 1 minute immunity timer. by then all my mana is gone anyway i would have to hit them atleast 10 times with my weapon after, now seeing as my weapon is 3.5 spd, and the average 2h weapon in middy is 5 spd or maybe 5.5 which i can say takes a very large chunk of my health i`d be dead long before the tank

 

[case-rigantis]

insta mez?

guys please try and listen i have a level 40 minstrel and can honetly say
WE DON`T GET INST MEZ!!!

if we did then we`d floor anything

 

[old.Emma]

Anyone remember singing the lvl 50 minstrel ? yes no

well at the time i was a lvl 44 shadowblade, he was happily ganking greys in yggdra forest until i turned up. 2 crit moves and a couple wacks later and he was taste`n wonderful middy snow. now he was a highlander minstrel which means he has rougly 200hp more than briton minstrel, i got my stun in before him PA/CD, he used 2 dd`s, my weapon procced twice. now if a minstrel can down a tank surely they can kill an assassin that is 6 lvl`s lower. because it surely didn`t seems that way when he was dead

 

[Solid]

NOWHERE did I mention that tanks have it easy killing minstrels.

I said minstrels cannot solo a tank, than means they canot kill it.
That does not mean they cant escape and survuve to fight another day.

The number of times Giona ran into me and then mezzed me, waved and ran off is ludicrous, even when she was orange con to me.

Minstrels hit like girls FYI, their melee damage is laughable.

IMO any tank class that gets solo killed by a Minstrel is a poor player.

Sure tanks cant kill Minstrels, BUT we have little to fear from them killing us as it does not happen to even cons.

If a minstrel uses their Mez and Stun and cant get us to less than 15% hp they will run. And let me tell you, minstrels have a HARD time getting tanks to 15%hp.

Minstrels probably run aorund with 1200hp at level 50 and with good items.

As a thane if i can interupt a minstrel trying to mez, they will stun me, DD DD and then mez and run away as they have no chance to kill me.

If they do mez me, its a waiting game for me, if they run, I survuve, iiif they fight, I still survive as 2 hits and a couple instas and a Minstrel is dead.

Giona has posted countless times that Minstrels are the top escape artists in DAoC, that which they cannot kill, they can run from.

 

[old.Emma]

as i said for a minstrel to even think of solo`n a tank they`d have to be naked and to be honest i`d run from the sight of a naked troll as fast as possible

 

[Jupitus]

Originally posted by Solid
Minstrels hit like girls FYI, their melee damage is laughable.

Disclaimer: I have never played a minstrel, nor do I know anything about the technicalities of DAoC. Any comments I make are just the usual old drivel.....

Wouldn't a minstrel's damage be comparable to a meleeing inf, ie unstealthed and just tanking without any crit strikes or envenom?

If so, I reckon you're right

 

[Solid]

yes it would and they will never spec weapon past 40 either.
minstrels have mediocre melee damage and nothing to scare a tank.

 

[lakih]

Originally posted by old.Emma
<zip> i have exactly 809hp unbuffed yes 809hp. <zip> i have a pretty high weapon spec of 38+7, 2 bracers of arms, rr2 and my weapon gives +4, and i still only hit for 60dmg, <zip>. 2 sets of dd`s would only do around 500-600dmg can only do one stun because of the 1 minute immunity timer. <zip>

My lvl 47 champion got 1065 hp unbuffed, 36+3 blades (rr2). I do about 50 - 60 dmg with my Glistering broadsword. 1 dd on a 15 sec recast timer and an average dmg of 100. Im going for the 8 sec stun at 42 shields...

So, i got more hp, same dmg, lesser dd, same stun (drains endurance), same armor... im a tank and you are a rouge...
Sounds like an even fight, except that you can stealth, dd, dd, mezz, whait for dd timers, nice start id say...

BTW, witch tank couldnt you kill? Troll Zerker? Firbolg Spearhero?

Note to solid: Im scared of Ministrels

 

[Glibbin!]

nerfing ?

I hate minstrels, but thats only coz i have had quite a lot of run-ins with Coren and mmg ...only thing that should get nerfed on a minstrel imo is the insta stun ....down to 3 seconds or something ..

having that stun gives the minstrel about 3 hits before anyone can even move a muscle at him.

I just dont feel thats fair.

(Taking away our snare is like taking away a panther's legs)

 

[klavrynd]

IMO any tank class that gets solo killed by a Minstrel is a poor player

resist stun , you win. stun sticks you die.

 

[old.Wicoa]

Erm don't forget theres a new ability for minstrels in patch 1.49 at spec level 45 for instruments see catacombs.

I don't think there is enough to complain about here, minstrels are a good solid well rounded class. If you want to stop them sneaking up on you and taking you down then I suggest next time you group in pve add an assasin or two into your group, there the only ones who can smell em and there shuned very badly.

 

[Solid]

I disagree Klavrynd.

you are saying as a Pure Melee class with the best hp table and dual wield you cant drop a Minstrel in 3 swings?

You walk round with 1500+ hp at 50, no way a minstrel can get u down to zero health before u get a few swings in, Stun or no Stun.

Of course what they could do is stun you hit you 3 times, mezz and run away, stealth, wait for 1min timer, and come back and try againj, maybe if they did that 3 times in a row they might kill u.

If they go toe to toe melee with you after their stuns/mez, you WILL kill em.

Remember we are talking about even cons, and ideally level 50 vs level 50.

Question, was I correct in assuming minstrels have around 1200 hp at level 50 with good items?

I generally hate Stuns cos they last for ages and u can be punded on all that time.

I am considering respeccing to 42Shield to get slam so I can join in the stun brigade.

 

[old.Emma]

stun is only 6s there is only so much you can do i that time and a minstrel kill a tank, dont think so, only a pure spec caster would have a small chance of killing someone that quick. the fastest weapon i can find for a minstrel thrust is 2.4 spd im using 3.5 spd that`s a little over 2 hits or just under 2 hits in 6 seconds, no way 2 little hits for a total of max 150dmg would even make a tank flinch. just for people`s information we can only stun and mezz the same person in RvR once, after the first there is a 1 minute timer before it will stick again. so all this stun, dd, dd, stun, dd ,dd stun crap is just that crap.

the only reason you think minstrels are uber is because we can hide you cant, simple as that, if any rogue class can solo a tank its the infiltrator and i remember reading on these very forums that a lvl 50 infil actually did solo a lvl 50 mid warrior. now that is an overpowerful class.

 

[old.Wicoa]

<note caps cause people are ignoring previous posts>

MINSTRELS DO NOT HAVE INSTANT MEZ WE PLAY A FLUTE TO MEZ AND IT TAKES 3 SECONDS (or so) TO CAST.

And my comparison to other classes was only to demonstrate that we get chain but sacrifice other skills which bards and skalds get.

Im not gonna read this post anymore people are going a bit over the top me thinks. And if your a thane that has been killed by a minstrel your a bloody gimp.

To all those with a brain good luck.

Wic

 

[old.Emma]

Originally posted by Solid
I disagree Klavrynd.

you are saying as a Pure Melee class with the best hp table and dual wield you cant drop a Minstrel in 3 swings?

You walk round with 1500+ hp at 50, no way a minstrel can get u down to zero health before u get a few swings in, Stun or no Stun.

Of course what they could do is stun you hit you 3 times, mezz and run away, stealth, wait for 1min timer, and come back and try againj, maybe if they did that 3 times in a row they might kill u.

If they go toe to toe melee with you after their stuns/mez, you WILL kill em.

Remember we are talking about even cons, and ideally level 50 vs level 50.

Question, was I correct in assuming minstrels have around 1200 hp at level 50 with good items?

I generally hate Stuns cos they last for ages and u can be punded on all that time.

I am considering respeccing to 42Shield to get slam so I can join in the stun brigade.

minstrels hp greatly depends on there base class, a saracen minstrel will have approx 700-800 hp unbuffed with items, a briton minstrel will have between 800-900hp unbuffed with items, a highlander minstrel will have between 1000-1100hp unbuffed with items. so know you know if its wearing a skirt it`s gonna put up a fight

 

[old.Wicoa]

Emma or that the tank didnt get off his chains or block enough. Im outta here.

Its the people behind the characters nothing to do with over powered classes.

 

[Danya]

Solid, Coren may correct me here, but few minstrels have over 1000 hp I'd say. I'm at about 880 hp (I think) with average items at level 46 (my char is briton). Also I can solo tanks sometimes. I took a yellow champion down without him getting a hit on me, just one DD. It very much depends on circumstances. Vs warrior / hero I wouldn't like my chances, the lighter tanks (thanes, BMs, zerks, champs) I have a reasonable chance at.
The champ kill was so easy because I was in HW. In HW there are pictish druids, I did the normal dd, dd, mez on the champ, then grabbed a druid pet, dd, dd, root (from druid) followed, then the druid meleed a bit, then dd, dd, stun, and a final melee hit to finish him off.
On the other hand it was an elven champ and they have low hp, vs a troll it would be a lot harder. Also somewhere without handy pets I probably wouldn't have attacked him (pictish druids are great because they heal you )

On weapon speed I use a 2.5 speed thruster (blacktooth) and have reasonable quickness so can normally hit 3 times in a stun. Not sure of damage with that in RvR though as I haven't RvRed since getting it.

 

[Verena]

Having played both sides of the stick I'd have 2 things to say.

I started the game as a hib caster and I got killed so often by a certain minstrel it's not funny. Upto a point where I'd figured screw it and I switched to alb/pryd and started one myself.

I used to play on hib/excal as an lvl42 enchanter and Alpha (he was always a few levels above me, always orange con) was my biggest nightmare. I felt the class was completly uber/overpowered and couldn't believe some said it was balanced. It felt like there was absolutly nothing I could do. Those insta mezzes and those 15seconds stuns felt just completly uber but offcourse I was wrong. (notice a lot of people think like this cause it just that, thhose stuns feel like ages and those DD's hit real hard)

I then started my own and soon realised that Alpha (he sold his account and is now played by someone else) was a very skilled player. It's not the class in itself but 75% has to do with the people playing them. Any half decent class can feel completly rubbish when played wrong or feel uber when played right.

I'd say to all the people that think they're uber start one yourself and see if you make it past lvl30. The class is hard to play cause of all those different things we can do but it takes a lot of determanation to get to learn to play them well.

On paper it just doesn't look right when you sum up their abilities. Stealth > songs > pets..etc

But in practice it's a whole other story

When stealthed the songs don't work, when playing songs you "can't" have pets. When stealthed you can't have a pet. Interupt bugs that plague our mezzing ever since the start of beta, charming greencon pets that turn on you at the worst times.

The minstrel is only as uber as the person behind the keyboard.

 

[ImLestat]

IMO any tank class that gets solo killed by a Minstrel is a poor player.

Lol, so I'm a poor player then? Getting to do nothing at all in a fight but wait for the minstrels timers to go down... Yes, I must be a poor player... I tell you, all the times I've met an even con minstrel I've been instamezzed/instastunned/instawhater-it-is-called
and standing there waiting like an idiot waiting for those damn timers to go down. Minstrels solo tanks easy. Ok, maybe not a skald, I've heard people say that they usually don't have any problem soloing minstrels. Maybe it's because they too have 2 dd spells, don't know at all, since I've never played a skald.

1. you have twice the hit points as us
2. you do more dmg than us, by one hell of a lot
3. you have your insta cast spells

1. We've got a few hit points more, but that never helped me in a fight vs a minstrel.
2. Yes, true, but that still doesn't help anything, since in a solo fight I might be able to hit you 2-3 times at max before I am dead, unless the conditions I mentioned before has happened. (The noobie level 50 minstrel, or I actually managed to sneak up on the minstrel.. Lol.) Oh, and the chain you wear, which already been discussed doesn't exactly help my damage either.
3. Thanes have 2 insta's, one lightning bolt that actually has decent damage, and a pbaoe shout, which damage wise does next to nothing in damage. Both on 20s timers. Doesn't help much in the end either.

May i remind you, when going to RvR remember to put your armour on

Oh gee, thanks a lot for that constructive criticism.

I understand people defending the classes they play, but come on, at least admit that you are able to solo even con tanks. Not doing that makes you pathetic...

 

[ImLestat]

The minstrel is only as uber as the person behind the keyboard.

That could be true. But still, it doesn't justify the potential that the minstrel holds. Even if those minstrels that really rule RvR have to be skilled as hell to rule, it isn't well balanced if the potential is so great.

 

[Danya]

Minstrel is certainly not an easy class to play. It basically comes down to, if you get it right it's superb, but one little slip and you just die. Not all that much margin for error.
You might say the same about all classes, but most classes don't need an average of about 15 hotkeys per fight, hence a lot of fast quickbar swapping.

 

[lakih]

"average 15 hotkeyes per fight"

I would see a list on those 15 different things you do during a fight... and thats about... 2 quickbars... thats alot of quickbars... gee, i wounder how you pull that one off... 2 quickbars... wow...

[/sarcasm]

 

[Verena]

Originally posted by old.ImLestat


That could be true. But still, it doesn't justify the potential that the minstrel holds. Even if those minstrels that really rule RvR have to be skilled as hell to rule, it isn't well balanced if the potential is so great.

Yes but what you're saying goes for a lot of classes in the game. Look at the nr1 Runemaster for a while in the US. Dakkon Rockshoe, 2.7million RP's that guy knows how to play his class and on his servers is the most feared caster around.

Does this make the RM class as a whole overpowered? Can you honestly say yes, then you must suck at playing your own class cause I can find a similair thane for you in a few seconds. Some people suck and some don't and if you loose every 1v1 to a minstrel then you suck!

It's very very simple. A skilled player makes a class stand or fall and that has nothing to do with being overpowered. In the right situation every class can shine and if you can't find your moment to shine then you're a sucky player. period.

Even cabalists can be uber but how many nerf cries do you see for them?

 

[old.chesnor]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely playing a Bard is just as fiddly as playing a Minstrel. I played a bard and remember how much of a pain it was when I first started. But it soon became second nature. Using the fact that you need to use 15 hotkeys per fight is hardly a justification for being overpowered

 

[old.chesnor]

Originally posted by Verena


Yes but what you're saying goes for a lot of classes in the game. Look at the nr1 Runemaster for a while in the US. Dakkon Rockshoe, 2.7million RP's that guy knows how to play his class and on his servers is the most feared caster around.

Does this make the RM class as a whole overpowered? Can you honestly say yes, then you must suck at playing your own class cause I can find a similair thane for you in a few seconds. Some people suck and some don't and if you loose every 1v1 to a minstrel then you suck!

It's very very simple. A skilled player makes a class stand or fall and that has nothing to do with being overpowered. In the right situation every class can shine and if you can't find your moment to shine then you're a sucky player. period.

Even cabalists can be uber but how many nerf cries do you see for them?

Err, reverse logic here. Sure any good player could rake the RP in with any class. But a talented RM will kick the talented Cabalists ass. End of. RM > Cabalist.

 

[Verena]

Originally posted by lakih
"average 15 hotkeyes per fight"

I would see a list on those 15 different things you do during a fight... and thats about... 2 quickbars... thats alot of quickbars... gee, i wounder how you pull that one off... 2 quickbars... wow...

[/sarcasm]

ok here we go.

I'll name some buttons for you.

drum
powersong
runsong
flute
mez
lute
healsong
weapon
shield (cause they don't autoequip.)
weaponstyles(amount depends on thrust or slash)
DD
DD
Stun
confuse
charm
/stick
/face
sprint
stealth

The only thing we don't use that often is lute+healsong+confuse and we have to equip it out of our bag cause there's no room for it.

You need a song on your stealthbar cause you can't stealth with a pulse going. Your instruments don't autoequip so you need them on your quickbar too.

Now take a hotbar with 8 buttons and makes it so that you got the best buttons at your disposal for a certain situation. During RvR I use 4 quickbars and I use them all the time. That's what I mean with you'll need to be skilled with the keyboard to fit this all into fastpaced RvR.

{edit} that better dannyn?

 

[ImLestat]

Originally posted by Verena


Yes but what you're saying goes for a lot of classes in the game. Look at the nr1 Runemaster for a while in the US. Dakkon Rockshoe, 2.7million RP's that guy knows how to play his class and on his servers is the most feared caster around.

Does this make the RM class as a whole overpowered? Can you honestly say yes, then you must suck at playing your own class cause I can find a similair thane for you in a few seconds. Some people suck and some don't and if you loose every 1v1 to a minstrel then you suck!

It's very very simple. A skilled player makes a class stand or fall and that has nothing to do with being overpowered. In the right situation every class can shine and if you can't find your moment to shine then you're a sucky player. period.

Even cabalists can be uber but how many nerf cries do you see for them?

Oh, yes, you must be sooo right. I play a spiritmaster who just maxed her rp's in the bg, much harder to play than a thane I must say. Still I don't think my deaths inside Thidranki are more than 10. I must really suck at playing a thane, I think I'll go delete him. Thanks a lot for opening my eyes with your brilliant explanation of that...

I'll huddle back to my corner and continue repeating my mantra....

 

[Verena]

Originally posted by old.chesnor


Err, reverse logic here. Sure any good player could rake the RP in with any class. But a talented RM will kick the talented Cabalists ass. End of. RM > Cabalist.

Is that so?

Cab casts nearsight, sick pet on RM and run or nuke or do whatever you want while the RM is running around like a headless chicken trying to get the pet off him. Goodbye RM with your uber bolts and your uber whatever.

Please stop replying and make yourself look even more stupid. This reply only showes you've got no clue about certain classes. Don't make yourself look even more stupid please.

 

[Verena]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely playing a Bard is just as fiddly as playing a Minstrel. I played a bard and remember how much of a pain it was when I first started. But it soon became second nature. Using the fact that you need to use 15 hotkeys per fight is hardly a justification for being overpowered

Nope but I'm only saying that not every minstrel out there has got the control of some of those very skilled players. come stand on our side and see how many minstrels you see standing in the back cause they can't do shit with their class.