Iraq Civil War?

[Urgat]

I cant begin to work it out..Im mentally zooming out in space and time to get a grip of some long term plan or unknown influences that is causing the west to repeatedly fuck up countries by a combination of force and propoganda then acting surprised when the bleedin obvious outcome shows itself...theyre not that stupid..what is their plan?

Only thing i can think of...

De-stabilise the middle east to such a fucked up extent that eventually the west has "no choice" but to glass the entire fucking area to "protect itscitizens from the global threat of the unstable middle east"

?

I got nothing else, sorry

 

[Raven]

Actually. I think they were stupid. Blair and Bush thought they could stir it all up to get at the oil, or were convinced by the Opec cartel that they could, in the meantime showing populations in stable countries that they could rise up to their leaders. The rising up bit is fine but it is obvious that the nutcases fill the vacuum that is left if the country is left to get on with it, especially one with a fanatic Muslim problem. What was a region looking to start to stabilise a bit has exploded.

Unfortunately I don't think we have much choice but to go into the middle east again, either Iraq or Syria. You can't go in, fuck things up and then wash your hands of it.

We shouldn't have to and had no right in the first place but a lot of people are suffering and a lot more are going to continue to suffer because of ours and America's governments.

 

[Gwadien]

All we'd need is Camp Bastion type bases, just to show them that we're still here, and we won't run away.

That should do the trick.

 

[Mabs]

All we'd need is Camp Bastion type bases, just to show them that we're still here, and we won't run away.

That should do the trick.

and then we need people to stay there for months/years playing "catch the mortar round"

you volunteering ?

 

[old.Osy]

Actually. I think they were stupid. Blair and Bush thought they could stir it all up to get at the oil, or were convinced by the Opec cartel that they could, in the meantime showing populations in stable countries that they could rise up to their leaders. The rising up bit is fine but it is obvious that the nutcases fill the vacuum that is left if the country is left to get on with it, especially one with a fanatic Muslim problem. What was a region looking to start to stabilise a bit has exploded.

Unfortunately I don't think we have much choice but to go into the middle east again, either Iraq or Syria. You can't go in, fuck things up and then wash your hands of it.

We shouldn't have to and had no right in the first place but a lot of people are suffering and a lot more are going to continue to suffer because of ours and America's governments.

Now that's proper rhetoric for a member of the British Empire, If I ever heard one.

 

[Raven]

Yeah but no.

 

[Job]

So 30,000 armed troops fled in the face of 800 militants...something bigger going on.

 

[Gwadien]

So 30,000 armed troops fled in the face of 800 militants...something bigger going on.

Like Allah?

 

[Gwadien]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27847498

Iran & US unite against Sunni Muslims?

This aint gonna end well, I'm predicting a genocide.

 

[old.user4556]

This is one big bubbling clusterfuck.

Can the UK please stay out of this?

 

[Raven]

Thanks to Blair and Labour, sadly we can't.

 

[old.user4556]

On a slightly related political note, if we do get involved, that could (sadly) fuel a Yes vote up here in Skirtland.

 

[DaGaffer]

This is the middle-east's Thirty Years War. Ultimately the whole map of the Levant from Lebanon to Iran is going to need to be redrawn, probably on Shia/Sunni lines across the whole region. The old colonial lines need to be erased, and Britain and France in particular need to back the hell away from the whole thing.

 

[Wij]

On a slightly related political note, if we do get involved, that could (sadly) fuel a Yes vote up here in Skirtland.

Yes vote? Sorry, is something happening?

 

[Wij]

This is the middle-east's Thirty Years War. Ultimately the whole map of the Levant from Lebanon to Iran is going to need to be redrawn, probably on Shia/Sunni lines across the whole region. The old colonial lines need to be erased, and Britain and France in particular need to back the hell away from the whole thing.

The 'cold war' between Iran and Saudi Arabia has become quite a hot one. They are still shying away from doing it on their own soil but otherwise it's a war.

 

[Raven]

We will get dragged in when Israel decide to do a bit of ethnic cleansing/land grabbing again.

 

[DaGaffer]

We will get dragged in when Israel decide to do a bit of ethnic cleansing/land grabbing again.

The Americans could/would get sucked into that, but the UK is no great backer of Israel, we've got far more ties to the Arabs. That's why UKGov abstains so much on Security Council votes.

I think Big G has a really valid point about the Scottish vote; this is one time UKGov has a really strong domestic politics reason to keep out of the whole affair, that trumps any ideas about backing the Americans as we usually do.

 

[Job]

I've said it many times before and I'll say it again, we won't rest till we have killed them all, once they get nukes, we'll use the excuse to bomb them into slightly further back in time.

 

[old.user4556]

this is one time UKGov has a really strong domestic politics reason to keep out of the whole affair, that trumps any ideas about backing the Americans as we usually do.

Absolutely, if Cameron even thinks about picking up the phone, dialing Obama and asking "sup B, fancy another war?" then the Yes campaign will be all over it like a rash.

"ANOTHER ILLEGAL WAR IN IRAQ COSTING BILLIONS OF TAX PAYER'S MONEY - VOTE YES TO OPT OUT" - it will happen, and I don't think Better Together / the UK can afford that.

I hate to agree with Yes, but they're right - I don't want another billion pound crusade, but then I don't think any of us do.

 

[Gwadien]

Absolutely, if Cameron even thinks about picking up the phone, dialing Obama and asking "sup B, fancy another war?" then the Yes campaign will be all over it like a rash.

"ANOTHER ILLEGAL WAR IN IRAQ COSTING BILLIONS OF TAX PAYER'S MONEY - VOTE YES TO OPT OUT" - it will happen, and I don't think Better Together / the UK can afford that.

I hate to agree with Yes, but they're right - I don't want another billion pound crusade, but then I don't think any of us do.

You're right, but equally, if Scotland gain independence, I believe they need to be prepared to take their fair share of the shit history with them, if there's further terrorism attacks (For which this is, a crusade against terrorism), I doubt the Terrorists will sit there distinguishing the difference between Scotland and the rest of the UK, especially since the war criminal is Scottish himself

 

[old.user4556]

You make a valid point, but terrorism against Scotland is a different beast - instead of beheading videos, they'll be threatening the poppy fields of Afghanistan with a message of "ALLAH PROMISES NO MORE SKAG".

 

[Embattle]

Considering the beliefs and actions of these terrorists/groups in Iraq is any one really stupid enough to believe they aren't included on some sort of (hmm how to put it) hate/hit list, all that happens is countries/groups just move priority.

 

[BloodOmen]

We should send them Tony Blair gift wrapped, might calm them down.

 

[Gwadien]

You make a valid point, but terrorism against Scotland is a different beast - instead of beheading videos, they'll be threatening the poppy fields of Afghanistan with a message of "ALLAH PROMISES NO MORE SKAG".

The Scottish Yes campaign does seem to be extremely naive though, they seem to have a lot of policies that concern 3rd parties, and most of the third parties would be like, lol, fuck off.

For instance, I heard that if when the UK says no to a currency union, Scotland may get the US dollar instead, (lol?) and they won't take some debt with them.

Anyway, stop making everything about yourself ffs, the middle east doesn't get enough attention anyway.

Unless a Palestinian sneezes at an Israeli Soldier

 

[old.user4556]

I think that's a different discussion and we're deviating from this thread.

Ultimately, any military action will be capitalised upon politically by Yes, so it'll be interesting to see how that pans out.

Back on topic, where do we stop with Iraq?

 

[Gwadien]

I think that's a different discussion and we're deviating from this thread.

Ultimately, any military action will be capitalised upon politically by Yes, so it'll be interesting to see how that pans out.

Back on topic, where do we stop with Iraq?

Well, if it's ultimately the right thing to do, and it has to happen to stop a country solely being in the hands of extremists, then we have to get involved, and fuck what happens to Scotland.

I don't think it would be a wise move to allow Iran to do it on their own.

 

[Job]

These ISIS fighters are exactly the same as the 'freedom fighters' we supported in Libya, except now we are going to shoot at them because they are militants.

Its so fucking painful and I'm sure generations before us could tell the same stories over and over again.

 

[Gwadien]

Well, when you're a country that as a rule needs to promote democracy, but also fight Terrorists, does that mean you risk having a secular dictator or a fundamentalist islamic democracy?

It's difficult, it's not clear cut as bad and good.

 

[Scouse]

For which this is, a crusade against terrorism

Rubbish.

 

[SilverHood]

These ISIS fighters are exactly the same as the 'freedom fighters' we supported in Libya, except now we are going to shoot at them because they are militants.

Its so fucking painful and I'm sure generations before us could tell the same stories over and over again.

The bigger problem here is that the west are actively trying to overthrow the regime in Syria, yet the US backed Baghdad local government is relying on al-Assad for airstrikes against ISIS within Iraqi territory. The Obama administration has managed to turn a small regional conflict into a religious clusterfuck of epic proportions. DaGaffer is right, this is the thirty year war that the Muslim world never had. Except I don't see any form of reconciliation possible, Christianity teaches forgiveness as a basic premise of its faith, Islam's answer to everything is death.

The sad thing is, there is no easy solution, it's gone too far now, any US intervention or lack of of it will be seen as the favoring of Sunni or Shia faiths. The better outcome I can think of is a partition of Iraq, give the Kurds a chance to rule themselves, split the remainder in half, one Sunni side, one Shia. It won't end the sectarian violence, but splitting the regions into manageable territories might give them a chance to shore up the security situation.