Infils = 2 button class

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by Haldar
donttouchpoopy

a log, for ur pleasure.

http://132.38.190.6/overpowered.jpg

this is infi against NS.

im happy if my main breaks 180 dmg and offhand breaks 45. if those numbers are typical for infi....it is scary.

I wouldn't say they're typical - but I am surprised/interested in the damage output of dual shadows. Its hard to comment much without full spec/equipment/RA info - but we can at least say the guy was thrust, 50th/50DW/35Env and RR5. He's buffed - fairly certain on that, against thrust neutral armour.

Tempts me to try 50/50 a little.

Can't see a problem with offhand damage - doesn't swing that often and is 60-80ish.

Would like to see that compared to a 50/50 equal rr buffed SB on a slash neutral target for damage comparison. A single log though, does not a case make.

 

[jox]

Originally posted by Haldar
donttouchpoopy

a log, for ur pleasure.

http://132.38.190.6/overpowered.jpg

this is infi against NS.

im happy if my main breaks 180 dmg and offhand breaks 45. if those numbers are typical for infi....it is scary.

And dont forget Dragonfang

 

[ztyx]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
Would like to see that compared to a 50/50 equal rr buffed SB on a slash neutral target for damage comparison. A single log though, does not a case make.

50/50 with only 2.2 pts/lvl is kinda hard makes you gimped overall. Compare it to a normal SZ spec instead.

 

[freeco]

Dragonfang4tehwin!!1


Says:

Cracked Lvl50 Shadowblade

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by ztyx
50/50 with only 2.2 pts/lvl is kinda hard makes you gimped overall. Compare it to a normal SZ spec instead.

No - that wouldn't be a valid test and is a entirely separate issue.

The test is at equal specs with same setup is damage output comparable.

Comparing different specs and then complaining that damage levels are different is pointless - you know what the answer is going to be and the reason for it.

 

[jox]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
No - that wouldn't be a valid test and is a entirely separate issue.

The test is at equal specs with same setup is damage output comparable.

Comparing different specs and then complaining that damage levels are different is pointless - you know what the answer is going to be and the reason for it.

lol, a infil and a sb CANT!!! have "equal specs with same setup".

If a sb goes 50/50 he have to give up the 47-debuff, any kind of cs and Stealth 50(which is a must).

With 2,5 Spc.Pts you can easly have 50/50, the 47-debuff, cs 10+ and Stealth 50.

So to compare a infils 50/50 with a sbs 50/50 is COMPLETELY worthless for every single player that still can breath and walk at the same time.

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by jox
lol, a infil and a sb CANT!!! have "equal specs with same setup".

If a sb goes 50/50 he have to give up the 47-debuff, any kind of cs and Stealth 50(which is a must).

With 2,5 Spc.Pts you can easly have 50/50, the 47-debuff, cs 10+ and Stealth 50.

So to compare a infils 50/50 with a sbs 50/50 is COMPLETELY worthless for every single player that still can breath and walk at the same time.

No no no no NO!

You are confusing the issue entirely here.

Hypothesis one - do infiltrators have higher damage than SBs. To test this you compare the same psec on each to provide valid data. If this shows a damage disparity you have a case.

If not you move to hypothesis 2 - do infiltrators gain a significant advantage through 0.3 spec points. For this you take a range of spec combinations in each class and compare damage output.

Comparing a 44/44 SB to a 50/50 infil does not test hypothesis 1, or fully test hypothesis 2. It merely test if a lower weapon specc'd SB does less damage than a higher weapon specc'd infil - the answer to which is yes by game mechanic design.

Don't get confused with your arguments.

 

[nalistah]

Originally posted by freeco
Dragonfang4tehwin!!1


Says:

Cracked Lvl50 Shadowblade

ever thought of making a sig?

I mean, so u dont have to write "Cracked lvl50 Shadowblade" every time

 

[jox]

The dif in Spc.Pts;

A rr 10 infil could go 50/50, Env 30, Stea 30 and still get CS 21(41).

A rr 10 SB can only go 50/44, Env 30, Stea 30 and CS 10.

So what do I miss at rr 10?

-6 at off hand and no pa!!!

Talk about gimped!!!!!!!!!!!11

Yes, ofc, I get 5% more Hit Points(but wat does it help when infils have 30% more in damageoutput?(if you consider the dragonfang and the debuff)).

Haha, lets keep this thread alive to 2004 PP

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by jox
The dif in Spc.Pts;

A rr 10 infil could go 50/50, Env 30, Stea 30 and still get CS 21(41).

A rr 10 SB can only go 50/44, Env 30, Stea 30 and CS 10.

So what do I miss at rr 10?

-6 at off hand and no pa!!!

Talk about gimped!!!!!!!!!!!11

Yes, ofc, I get 5% more Hit Points(but wat does it help when infils have 30% more in damageoutput?(if you consider the dragonfang and the debuff)).

Haha, lets keep this thread alive to 2004 PP

That is a valid opinion, but is at this stage just that.

it is not a valid test, it is not data, it does not form the basis for anything.

 

[jox]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
No no no no NO!

You are confusing the issue entirely here.

Hypothesis one - do infiltrators have higher damage than SBs. To test this you compare the same psec on each to provide valid data. If this shows a damage disparity you have a case.

If not you move to hypothesis 2 - do infiltrators gain a significant advantage through 0.3 spec points. For this you take a range of spec combinations in each class and compare damage output.

Comparing a 44/44 SB to a 50/50 infil does not test hypothesis 1, or fully test hypothesis 2. It merely test if a lower weapon specc'd SB does less damage than a higher weapon specc'd infil - the answer to which is yes by game mechanic design.

Don't get confused with your arguments.

:lol:

Hyp 1: You are six years old.

Hyp 2: You are joking.

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by jox
:lol:

Hyp 1: You are six years old.

Hyp 2: You are joking.

Nope - you're talking about basic testing premises here. Firstly identify what it is you're testing, then be logical and systematic about it.

Something you can be sure an established games company like mythic is aware of.

But if you just want to do chest beating and griping then carry on - won't alter a damn thing though.

 

[behatch]

nerf df!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111

nerf dual shadows!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111

nerf AP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111

nerf la de nerf nerf nerf!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Nazghul-]

Originally posted by jox
:lol:

Hyp 1: You are six years old.

Hyp 2: You are joking.

Hyp 1 seem most likely

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by Nazghul-
Hyp 1 seem most likely

Got a good couple of years on the mental age of 90% of the SB posters here then.....

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
Nope - you're talking about basic testing premises here. Firstly identify what it is you're testing, then be logical and systematic about it.

Something you can be sure an established games company like mythic is aware of.

But if you just want to do chest beating and griping then carry on - won't alter a damn thing though.

its rather hard to do real testing on european servers though, its not like we got a test server which we can access and can get respec stones for little money .
You would need to do tests where infil+sb are just wacking at eachother with normal anytime (or maybe frontal positional if any of them have that), so to see who does more damage and ofc with similar spec (weapon/dw 50/50). Then you can parse from the logs whether one of the two classes do more damage and you shouldnt forget to remove resists (including armour resists) from those numbers.
After that you would need to compare real specs that are similar in setup, but ofc different in speccing as there is a different amount of specpoints between the two classes.

Now I am reasonable sure LA and DW will do same amount of damage at reasonable spec level (so you got the small probs of low spec LA solved). So then you can claim that infiltrators will do more damage because of their specpoints, but that might be made up for the ability of SB's to use a twohander and 5% more hp. Offcourse twohander isnt that useful vs an infil, but if your LA spec is low and your weaponspec is high it can be rather useful versus mages and maybe even archers. However I dont play an assassin so I wouldnt know that for sure.
But SB's might have to accept the fact that they might be better in killing mages and worse in killing other assassins than infils are. You cant make classes the same in killing every class, without making the class completly similar. However the game for stealthers is more changed to hunting down other stealthers, so mythic might want to fix that in some way (either make all stealthers almost equal in fighting eachother or somehow make stealthers part of actual RvR again).

 

[BidAccount]

You're not supposed to talk sense here - it upsets the SBs...

 

[behatch]

ye say sowwy

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
You're not supposed to talk sense here - it upsets the SBs...

ah ok

gifv back old LA growth rates they were hardly overpowered also gifv sbs .3 spec points more and switch Aurora Borealis with Dragonfang.

That any better?

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by driwen
ah ok

gifv back old LA growth rates they were hardly overpowered also gifv sbs .3 spec points more and switch Aurora Borealis with Dragonfang.

That any better?

Still not quite enough drooling and chest beating. Try:

OMFG SBs r teh gimp111111. Givf pbaoe and plate and ae ranged stun and LA doubled damge 4tehwin1111. We r gimp, its not fair, dragonfang wibble drool mutter sigh.

 

[knoll]

DMG

Got some screenshoots from a fight with Kalizara RR4 inf i think dunno if he is 50/50 but i know he got DF.
tried to patch it together from those few pics i got unfortunate i dont have all fight but atleast some hits from her and some hits from me.

im rr5 fullybuffed by a MoA 3 BB my specc is 44+15 axe and 44+15 Left axe. midgard owns 2 str relics +20 melee dmg and albion 1 +10 melee dmg.
my armour is thrust resistant and i got 26 thrust resist.

and in these pictures iwe purged her DF and debuff poison still we do same dmg.

http://backrow.net/humbopp/Kalizara.JPG

this is like i said not that scientific but it shows dmg.

 

[knoll]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
Still not quite enough drooling and chest beating. Try:

OMFG SBs r teh gimp111111. Givf pbaoe and plate and ae ranged stun and LA doubled damge 4tehwin1111. We r gimp, its not fair, dragonfang wibble drool mutter sigh.

why do infs specc thrust i mean its the worst line there is and SB's got thrust resistant armour.
if u specc slash u out dmg SB's and got very nice styles ill tell u why infs specc the worst line for them, DF and why yes cause its a winning style otherwise they wouldnt specc thrust.

imo make all assasins stun styles 6 sec second in chain it should be hard to land such a turning blow.

 

[BidAccount]

Not to denigrate this in any way it isn't 'scientific' - we don't have comparable test subjects.

No data on equipment, RAs etc. No partner logs to ID crits etc.

Interesting, but doesn't really say anything.

 

[Xandax]

Originally posted by driwen
<snip>
Now I am reasonable sure LA and DW will do same amount of damage at reasonable spec level (so you got the small probs of low spec LA solved). So then you can claim that infiltrators will do more damage because of their specpoints, but that might be made up for the ability of SB's to use a twohander and 5% more hp. Offcourse twohander isnt that useful vs an infil, but if your LA spec is low and your weaponspec is high it can be rather useful versus mages and maybe even archers. However I dont play an assassin so I wouldnt know that for sure.
But SB's might have to accept the fact that they might be better in killing mages and worse in killing other assassins than infils are. You cant make classes the same in killing every class, without making the class completly similar. However the game for stealthers is more changed to hunting down other stealthers, so mythic might want to fix that in some way (either make all stealthers almost equal in fighting eachother or somehow make stealthers part of actual RvR again).

Problem is that SZ and LA was nerfed (in cojunction with haveing end regen wich got nerfed also, and low quick zerkers doing high frontload damage, thus LA suffered a double hit with the nerf bat) with the reasons that SBs didn't use their "natural abilities" of stealth and CS.
Now we see Infils doing exactly the same that SZs got SBs nerfed for (supposedly "killing every class") combined with better class specific RA, more skill point, better
weapon choices (slash, thrust, faster off hand) etc.

That is probelry why a good deal of the SB community feels wronged and to be frank, spit on by Mytich (and our fellow gamers wich "enjoy" the same game as us)

 

[BidAccount]

Originally posted by knoll
why do infs specc thrust i mean its the worst line there is and SB's got thrust resistant armour.
if u specc slash u out dmg SB's and got very nice styles ill tell u why infs specc the worst line for them, DF and why yes cause its a winning style otherwise they wouldnt specc thrust.

imo make all assasins stun styles 6 sec second in chain it should be hard to land such a turning blow.

They spec it because its more suited to their stats set, and because DF is a good style. Sod all else in there though. Plus theres a difference I've noticed between mid and Alb assassin players - we don't consider ourselves just a stealth warrior designed to take down other stealthers. I go after support classes and casters more often than other stealthers, and thrust is very good on mid support classes.

If you think DF is the 'uber Iwin' button style you are sorely mistaken and fixating on the wrong issue.

(And xandax - you're lucky to be spat on. Given the overpowered nature of SZs and the level of exploitation most of the Hib/Alb community wanted to crap on them from a great height)

 

[Aussie-]

Re: DMG

Originally posted by knoll
midgard owns 2 str relics +20 melee dmg and albion 1 +10 melee dmg.

my name is noob and i know shit about this game

 

[Haldar]

Kalizara is hard, i was barely able to defeat her once (15% hp left). She's slash afaik - so fight was on equal terms.

if i get Dfanged, i lose 40-50% of hp during stun duration. for me, this is 'I Win' button.

 

[BidAccount]

Re: Re: DMG

Originally posted by Aussie-
my name is noob and i know shit about this game

Such a succinct way of putting it....

 

[freeco]

Originally posted by nalistah
ever thought of making a sig?

I mean, so u dont have to write "Cracked lvl50 Shadowblade" every time

Hey, im a fast typer! But ok just for u m8! 8)

 

[jox]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
Not to denigrate this in any way it isn't 'scientific' - we don't have comparable test subjects.

No data on equipment, RAs etc. No partner logs to ID crits etc.

Interesting, but doesn't really say anything.

I agree that logs like that dosent say much, BUT it always says something, all logs does.

One can always find errors in all kinds of testings/statistics, but it dosent make the tests completely worthless.

Perfect tests does not exists.

Even if Mytix would show you logs of 10 000 fights between a sb and a infil(were both are equal) and the fact that the infil won 7 times out of 10 you would not agree to the simpe fact that shadowblades do not perform well against infiltrators.