Flimgoblin
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Arnor said:
wouldn't recommend it
anyway stop post farming 
Infil vs SB
- Thread starter Indrid
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wouldn't recommend it
anyway stop post farming Flimgoblin said:and screenshots prove nothing
dont seem to remember that being the general consensous(fucks sake spelling) when rvn posted his 811 mainhand hit ^^ or Kabuki or whoever that US dude was. (ok, and that little fin that was so fotm, judo or wrestling i think his char was called
)Flimgoblin said:erm where on this thread did it say "only SBs and Infs are allowed to post"? not that I'd pay any attention to it anyway, since this is a public forum.
and screenshots prove nothing
Just admit I pwned you good.
There is no shame in admitting you are wrong man, but I guess i should not "Bait the moderator" ..easy way out.
:worthy:acually i think that ss can prove that something is wrong, lets say that the normal dmg of a class compared to another class is somewhat balanced, but in some situations one class can get monster hits that the other class cant get. now this might not show up on regular tests(or might be ignored in tests as odd flukes) this might still have a huge inpact on regular rvr.Flimgoblin said:screenshots prove nothing
Back when La was "broke" the average dmg of sbs was high, yes but it was the monster hits(that did occur abit to often to be ignored) that made ppl cry out for nerfs. these kind of "bugs" is hard to get when you are doing regular tests.
Wyrd is ofc doing a great job at bringing out information and data, but hes tests doesnt really show what kind of dmg an inf/sb/ns does on a regular basis out in rvr where sooo many things can influence the dmg and shift the balance in one way or another. If its true what rvn said before about debuffs not been taken into calculations when wyrd did hes tests thats just one example of what i meen.
So dont dismiss ss as just the odd dmg that seldom happens.. they can show more how things are then tests sometimes.
Flimgoblin
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Framfall said:
Considering your response to my links to some verifiable logs on how to improve your SB damage and make up for the smaller amount of spec points was "feck off you're not an inf" I really do wonder about your definition of pwned.
Still I suppose you'd consider getting to /laugh spam at someone's corpse "pwning" - it's about on the same level.
Flimgoblin
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Teheron said:
They're not good for working out what's wrong - a massive crit on an unbuffed caster or someone wearing roleplaying clothes really doesn't mean a lot
a lucky string of 50% crits in a row doesn't mean a lot.They can be useful for pointing out hideous discrepancies or to highlight something that needs proper testing but that's about all
1500 point damage zerker hit screenshots weren't what got them nerfed - someone seeing those screenshots, doing lots of tests and working out that the LA growth rates were double what everything else was did.
(they're good entertainment though
)Smilewhenyousaythat
Fledgling Freddie
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Vodkafairy said:posting data will work because you wont believe me when i say infil dps > sb/ns dps. a while ago i did some calculations for my own NS, proving that high cd using taunt style is the same overall dmg output as high cs
style dmg vs offhand hits
but infils have an 'anytime' high dmg style in dw, hence making infil dps superiour to ns/sb's. since you wont believe me when i type it like this, i can show you the calculations using wyrds data, maybe you can accept it then
Cyclodia claimed that infils had greater dps than infils.
Got banned from the vnboards for lying about it. Run a search on vn_berzerker on vn - he ran tests with his ns and infil and found dps to be the same.
And statisitically for validity you need to run high volume controlled tests - these screenies are the equivalent of farting in Peckham high street and claiming it caused a roof to collapse in Aberdeen.
Flimgoblin said:They're not good for working out what's wrong - a massive crit on an unbuffed caster or someone wearing roleplaying clothes really doesn't mean a lot
They can be useful for pointing out hideous discrepancies or to highlight something that needs proper testing but that's about all
1500 point damage zerker hit screenshots weren't what got them nerfed - someone seeing those screenshots, doing lots of tests and working out that the LA growth rates were double what everything else was did.
(they're good entertainment though
If you on those 50%crits hit way harder then your counterpart in other realms do on their 50% crits then it does show alot. because ss are taken from real rvr(in all the difference there is betwenn rr, equipments, buffs, debuffs....) it can clearly point out that things are unbalanced.
Not saying that you should base you balancing on ss, but ss combined with tests/logs is the way to go. Not just tests or just ss. What im saying is that ss does show accual dmg done in a certain situation, witch can show imbalance issues in a way that pure dmg tests cant show.
Like you said yourself, those ss of zerkers doing massive damage did lead to testings and after that fixing. if ppl would just have ignored the ss as odd flukes la would still be "bugged". So i say bring on the ss and lets hope we can get some more balance between classes.
I would like to see mythic take a more active part in providing logs/tests about balancing issues. For example, why cant they take logs from one area and compare the dmg done between assasins? shouldnt be so hard for them to balance things abit better since they can get info on attacker/specc/debuffs/targets stats and so on. Just see if the difference is big and if it is, check to se under what conditions these big differences occured. Mythic is in a way better position to get accurate information on all situations then TLs or individual persons can.
Vodkafairy
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Smilewhenyousaythat said:
infils do have greater dps which is caused by superiour styles, not by being on a higher damage table or something (unless its bugged, which i dont believe)
please don't compare calculations based on wyrds growth rates, and wyrds formulas to a half assed test by cyclodia. you of all people should know the two things are completely different
Vodkafairy
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10k 30k pennine hmm?
Flimgoblin said:They're not good for working out what's wrong - a massive crit on an unbuffed caster or someone wearing roleplaying clothes really doesn't mean a lot
it can possibly show unnrmally high caps
Smilewhenyousaythat
Fledgling Freddie
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Vodkafairy said:
Erm - CS line has the highest growth rate styles.
CS line is identical for NS and infils.
Vodkafairy
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Smilewhenyousaythat said:
how. thick. can. you. get.
CS has highest growth rate styles, yes, but to spec for that you give up offhand hits. Offhand hits add a lot of damage, and when offhand hits, you also get the very important haste effect. Overall, the added offhand chance makes up for the lower growth rate styles in the offhand-specline, when using Taunt (0.6 growth rate). Infils however have a 0.80 style they can pretty much always use, WHILE having the full 50 spec in offhand line, which makes their DPS superiour to NS, who are stuck with taunt.
Shadowblades have a 0.75 growth rate style which takes alot of end and because of LA mechanics it hits softer, with the added effect of more offhand hits. But infils have spec AF, giving the edge, once again, to infils.
Just accept this, its a bloody fact, i asked you three times for a little data so i can prove it to you with the formulas from your daoc-god you blindly follow, but you wont give me it. You can't stand the fact you might be proven wrong and you keep believing wyrd on everything, when from his data, its obvious infils have an edge over the other two.
Wmv
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Just saw a funny screenshot on IRC posted by a rr7 infil, compare it to my SS from earlier today
He got relics i know, but even if mids had em all its not possible for me to reach that kind of dmg since my dmp cap is like ~100dmg lower then his is. cba to login and check but buffed with my 44+17 CS AH caps on ~320? for me while he is hitting for 429dmg
Compare his style bonus on AH with mine on hamstring+leaper, a style thats supposed to have lower GR
That kind of dmg on someone whos not even debuffed? Balanced?
The first SS is the infils obviously
He got relics i know, but even if mids had em all its not possible for me to reach that kind of dmg since my dmp cap is like ~100dmg lower then his is. cba to login and check but buffed with my 44+17 CS AH caps on ~320? for me while he is hitting for 429dmg
Compare his style bonus on AH with mine on hamstring+leaper, a style thats supposed to have lower GR
That kind of dmg on someone whos not even debuffed? Balanced?
The first SS is the infils obviously
Attachments
Smilewhenyousaythat
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Vodkafairy said:
But based on running 51 effective spec on mh an ifil has 2 options.
1. Lose the stun and gain a few % more on offhand than the NS.
2. Spec to 50 for the stun and have a lower offhand % than the NS.
Either way the NS wins - they have a few % lower chance to swing offhand but an evade stun that the infil doesn't have, plus remedy at rr5, plus insta dd. Or they both have an evade based stun, but the NS has higher offhand swing chance, remedy at rr5 and the insta dd. Either way its advantage NS.
Why you have a bug up your behind over DS when garrotte/achilles produces a higher growth rate, more damage, is a truly anytime chain and has a movement reduction in it is beyond me. And this chain is there for the NS,Sb and infil alike - truly equal and identical.
And if it so obvious that infils have the edge then you can run the maths to prove it.
Face it - despite the bluster the current mechanics give a marginal edge to NS over infils, who have a marginal edge over SBs.
Smilewhenyousaythat
Fledgling Freddie
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Wmv said:
Caps yes perhaps - but looking at wyrds figures the dps generated by LA mechanics is higher.
How often are you going to cap with garrotte/achilles? Take the better deal - higher average damage over the duration of the fight rather than what you can do to a grey con.
Smilewhenyousaythat
Fledgling Freddie
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Wmv said:Just saw a funny screenshot on IRC posted by a rr7 infil, compare it to my SS from earlier today
He got relics i know, but even if mids had em all its not possible for me to reach that kind of dmg since my dmp cap is like ~100dmg lower then his is. cba to login and check but buffed with my 44+17 CS AH caps on ~320? for me while he is hitting for 429dmg
Compare his style bonus on AH with mine on hamstring+leaper, a style thats supposed to have lower GR
That kind of dmg on someone whos not even debuffed? Balanced?
The first SS is the infils obviously
Methinkg ztyx got necro af debuffed.....
Vodkafairy
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ill explain it even easier then.
dual wield gives more offhand hits.
more offhand hits = more damage
more offhand hits = faster attack speed
faster attack speed = more damage
.
less offhand hits = less damage
less offhand hits = slower attack speed
slower attack speed = less damage
.
yes?
Ns don't have enough points to spec for both, they have to choose. you can't have both the style damage from CS and the offhand damage/haste from CD. But, in the end the lower growth rate styles from CD with added offhand effects, result in the same damage over time as high growth rate styles from CS with less offhand effect.
Infils, have a high anytime style in their DW line, which gives them both high style damage AND high offhand effects. Clearly you see the advantage. Your damage over time will always be higher with DW than with CS, as an infil. Sure you can say CS has more utility, but thats where the insane amount of specpoints an infil gets kick in, they can get the utility from PA-CD and garrote snare and keep the high offhand effects from DW, where NS can not.
Infil > Ns.
Stuns and poisons can be purged, where offhand hits and style damage can not.
dual wield gives more offhand hits.
more offhand hits = more damage
more offhand hits = faster attack speed
faster attack speed = more damage
.
less offhand hits = less damage
less offhand hits = slower attack speed
slower attack speed = less damage
.
yes?
Ns don't have enough points to spec for both, they have to choose. you can't have both the style damage from CS and the offhand damage/haste from CD. But, in the end the lower growth rate styles from CD with added offhand effects, result in the same damage over time as high growth rate styles from CS with less offhand effect.
Infils, have a high anytime style in their DW line, which gives them both high style damage AND high offhand effects. Clearly you see the advantage. Your damage over time will always be higher with DW than with CS, as an infil. Sure you can say CS has more utility, but thats where the insane amount of specpoints an infil gets kick in, they can get the utility from PA-CD and garrote snare and keep the high offhand effects from DW, where NS can not.
Infil > Ns.
Stuns and poisons can be purged, where offhand hits and style damage can not.
