Infil vs SB

[Arnor]

Methinkg ztyx got necro af debuffed.....

lol, how long have you played in rvr do you claim?

 

[Arnor]

Caps yes perhaps - but looking at wyrds figures the dps generated by LA mechanics is higher.

How often are you going to cap with garrotte/achilles? Take the better deal - higher average damage over the duration of the fight rather than what you can do to a grey con.

lOLZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


especially with relics, ill take big caps over more consistant dmg. Think savage versus zerker in dmg-output.

 

[Appollo]

/hug Mr Monsterinfil :wub:

fo ****

 

[tookha]

Arnor, bare in mind - he DID do 200 damage main hand each swing on Vodka's level 41 Mentalist !
So that consistant damage he's talking about and probably speccing for, really pays off !

 

[Appollo]

wtf, i cant say: see you next tuesday!

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

Arnor, bare in mind - he DID do 200 damage main hand each swing on Vodka's level 41 Mentalist !
So that consistant damage he's talking about and probably speccing for, really pays off !

So i'm led to believe. Nice to see your standard of input remains consistent at least......

 

[tookha]

No problem, I'm still trying my best!

How many specs have you actually tried out youself if I may ask?

I'm guessing your reluctant to post your current spec and char setup - but feel free to do so anyways ^^

 

[Vodkafairy]

ye, still waiting for that info you'll never give to anyone mr anonimous.

pretty funny btw, consistant damage for an infil is DW, yet you're CS.

 

[rvn]

or just go dw + cs, as they can do that once higher rr =P

 

[Vodkafairy]

ye, thats even more sick

 

[Flimgoblin]

now I'm far from an expert on stealther specs but just talking hypothetically here (I'm sure someone will be helpful enough to give me some normal specs )

NS can go (at RR6)

34+16 envenom
34+16 stealth
35+16 pierce
50+16 CS
17+16 dual

vs

Infil (also RR6)
34+16 env
34+16 stealth
35+16 thrust
50+16 CS
34+16 dw

NS gets a 5s stun off evade + their uber ns nukes
infil gets a 8.5% increased chance of DW

lower CS spec:

34+16 envenom
34+16 stealth
35+16 pierce
44+16 CS
29+16 dual

vs

34+16 env
34+16 stealth
35+16 thrust
44+16 CS
41+16 dw

difference here is only 6% dw rate

if the infil goes for the 5s stun they get:
34+16 env
34+16 stealth
50+16 thrust
44+16 CS
21+16 dw

so a 4% lower chance to DW if you want the 5s evade stun on an infil... (though whether 50 thrust spec with lower growth rate styles gives you more damage than 44 spec using the higher growth rate CS styles would have to be determined to see if that's balanced)

I've probably missed some obvious thing in the specs (wasn't till I got to the second lot that I noticed I forgot stealth ) so please feel free to correct me .

This also doesn't have any mention of armour resists or whatever - this is purely down to speccing, dw chance and availability of stun style (assuming you use CS styles for damage - in the 50 thrust spec case that may be an invalid assumption)

 

[Arnor]

<snip>

and your point is?

 

[Vodkafairy]

wrong cd formula

 

[Indrid]

So i'm led to believe. Nice to see your standard of input remains consistent at least......

sounds like u think wyrd made the game, and the way the damage for stealthers works, since u allways say, wyrds tests says that blablabla..
Wyrd shows that if u do this and if u do that its correcs, thats the way its suposed to be.. what if he is wrong.. then u have shit on ur neighbours lawn.

u also keep on saying, us whined 10patches blabla, wont help u, mythic wont do anything about it.. instead of saying same bullshit over and over, give us some of your own fucking evidence and proof to actually show us your right, cause i think most ppl here actually give too good info to show u wrong.. so plz, bring us some info of your uber corrects answers..

and yeh, why should a infils have higher cap damage than a SB, even if both is specced 50 main wep and both ie high dw or cs.. equal rr and both good gear.



oh and i think Ztyx was prolly sitting down on that picture.. looks like infil hit cap, and must have been ztyx sitting, u can see he have ok resists, and style damage is so high..

 

[rvn]

now I'm far from an expert on stealther specs but just talking hypothetically here (I'm sure someone will be helpful enough to give me some normal specs )

NS can go (at RR6)

34+16 envenom
34+16 stealth
35+16 pierce
50+16 CS
17+16 dual

vs

Infil (also RR6)
34+16 env
34+16 stealth
35+16 thrust
50+16 CS
34+16 dw

NS gets a 5s stun off evade + their uber ns nukes
infil gets a 8.5% increased chance of DW

lower CS spec:

34+16 envenom
34+16 stealth
35+16 pierce
44+16 CS
29+16 dual

vs

34+16 env
34+16 stealth
35+16 thrust
44+16 CS
41+16 dw

difference here is only 6% dw rate

if the infil goes for the 5s stun they get:
34+16 env
34+16 stealth
50+16 thrust
44+16 CS
21+16 dw

so a 4% lower chance to DW if you want the 5s evade stun on an infil... (though whether 50 thrust spec with lower growth rate styles gives you more damage than 44 spec using the higher growth rate CS styles would have to be determined to see if that's balanced)

I've probably missed some obvious thing in the specs (wasn't till I got to the second lot that I noticed I forgot stealth ) so please feel free to correct me .

This also doesn't have any mention of armour resists or whatever - this is purely down to speccing, dw chance and availability of stun style (assuming you use CS styles for damage - in the 50 thrust spec case that may be an invalid assumption)

or the infil goes
34+16 env
34+16 stealth
35+16 thrust
34+16 CS
50+16 dw


and gets a front pos wich is basy anytime that doesnt take huge amount of end, and get dw rate too. Addition to that the inf gets PA,cd wich is only basicly usefull vs casters anyway.


and i think that the dmg is pretty even if you have optimal conditions for ns/inf/sb..

for example infil gets easier specc af.
infil gets front pos style with .8 gr and not that high end useage.
infil get more specc pts.

what speaks for ns'es are their RA remedy wich i think is very good, id say with this you are on top of all assasins
nses loose their specc points to useless magic tho (useless in most situations, sometimes nice with an insta dd)

now to the sb "issues"

sb get 100% str based weapons only. as assasins have both str/con, disease and singel str to reduce this they suffer quite alot.
the way LA work, sb's basicly have to specc LA, orelse their base dmg suffer too much.
the stun from comback/frosty gaze has less chance of landing as you have to perform 2 styles to get the stun instead of 1 (and this also with 100% str weapons when you have gimped ws because of debuffs).

sb's have potential to do alot of dmg however because of the haste bonus with dw:ing everytime, however this is less important in shorter fights and is only really usefull in longer fights.

infil then also has the best armor table, vurnable to crush, wich no other stealther can perform with a melee weapon.

 

[Appollo]

50 Thrust
50 DW
34 CS
30 Stealth
rest env

Best spec i ever been ( and i been a few).

 

[Ronin]

The infills ive seen doing massive damage have one thing in common, they are using legendary weapons. Usually with debufs other then heat. 90% of the SB templates ive seen consist of reducing one or more resists cause its not "common" for a SB to meet a enemy that produces that kind of elemental damage. Most infills i know use this in consideration and when they choose their weapons. When they attack/debuff another class in RvR it pretty much means they pull down their pants and begin pumping. And if a infill speccs high in DW you could figure out the effect of dual hitting a debuffed target doing good damage in base as it is. Most SB go with fotm weapons like Bane/battler, but tbh the most dangerous ones out there duoing are using the same kind of leg weapons.

So before you start crying, look over your templates and try and figure out if if the infill pwning u is using some kind of leg weapon. Plz do this BEFORE you start crying and check the dps msg blindly. Str relics + the above is whats killing you. And plz, dont start describing situations were you were killed with a hyper template with all caps and by a infill NOT using leg weapons doing this kind of damage. Cause we wont belive you, atleast not those who have tried this out in RvR.

 

[Bloodaxe_Springskalle]

Bla blabla bla - but looking at wyrds figures
blabla blablalba bla bla.

repeated that enough times now?

ps. i edited it and put it in quote, but didnt change the meaning

 

[Wmv]

The infills ive seen doing massive damage have one thing in common, they are using legendary weapons. Usually with debufs other then heat. 90% of the SB templates ive seen consist of reducing one or more resists cause its not "common" for a SB to meet a enemy that produces that kind of elemental damage. Most infills i know use this in consideration and when they choose their weapons. When they attack/debuff another class in RvR it pretty much means they pull down their pants and begin pumping. And if a infill speccs high in DW you could figure out the effect of dual hitting a debuffed target doing good damage in base as it is. Most SB go with fotm weapons like Bane/battler, but tbh the most dangerous ones out there duoing are using the same kind of leg weapons.

So before you start crying, look over your templates and try and figure out if if the infill pwning u is using some kind of leg weapon. Plz do this BEFORE you start crying and check the dps msg blindly. Str relics + the above is whats killing you. And plz, dont start describing situations were you were killed with a hyper template with all caps and by a infill NOT using leg weapons doing this kind of damage. Cause we wont belive you, atleast not those who have tried this out in RvR.

doh i had no idea SBs could use them to =((((((((((((((

but yeah there is quite alot of sbs that run around with battler mainhand against all classes they meet, why i dont know, but heat weap on sb and he will still not even come close to infil dmg

 

[Flimgoblin]

wrong cd formula

and the correct one is?

it's a difference of 17 spec points, 12 spec points or -8 spec points then feel free to post how much of an effect that has on your dw rate

 

[Jox]

50 Thrust
50 DW
34 CS
30 Stealth
rest env

Best spec i ever been ( and i been a few).

Have you tried Wyrd77?;
31 Thrust
44 DW
50 CS
30 Stealth
30 Env

Using CS-Styles only.

Ask yourself, is it really worth to burn 779 points just to get dragonfang? With Wyrd77 your dps will raise and your pa will rip through my flesh like it was butter

The infills ive seen doing massive damage have one thing in common, they are using legendary weapons. Usually with debufs other then heat. 90% of the SB templates ive seen consist of reducing one or more resists cause its not "common" for a SB to meet a enemy that produces that kind of elemental damage. Most infills i know use this in consideration and when they choose their weapons. When they attack/debuff another class in RvR it pretty much means they pull down their pants and begin pumping. And if a infill speccs high in DW you could figure out the effect of dual hitting a debuffed target doing good damage in base as it is. Most SB go with fotm weapons like Bane/battler, but tbh the most dangerous ones out there duoing are using the same kind of leg weapons.

So before you start crying, look over your templates and try and figure out if if the infill pwning u is using some kind of leg weapon. Plz do this BEFORE you start crying and check the dps msg blindly. Str relics + the above is whats killing you. And plz, dont start describing situations were you were killed with a hyper template with all caps and by a infill NOT using leg weapons doing this kind of damage. Cause we wont belive you, atleast not those who have tried this out in RvR.

I think most sbs wields heat/cold + malice, there is just no other serious options.

 

[Flimgoblin]

or the infil goes
34+16 env
34+16 stealth
35+16 thrust
34+16 CS
50+16 dw


and gets a front pos wich is basy anytime that doesnt take huge amount of end, and get dw rate too. Addition to that the inf gets PA,cd wich is only basicly usefull vs casters anyway.

was thinking of posting the DW spec but then there's more differences so the comparison is different again...

in stealther wars yeah front pos is anytime (cept when someone's lagging and strafing around and upside down through you of course)

hmm 50dw using a 0.8 growth rate style vs 44 CS using 0.75 + 1.05 growth rate chain... A lot of things that'd affect which is better there (if you're only landing every 3rd hit then you're probably averaging ~0.75 growth rate for the CS, if you can land 3/4 you're getting about 0.82 growth rate)

in return the infil has no easy off-evade stun and has none of the little nuke things that have their uses

inf/ns don't seem too out of whack with respect to each other - at least on the solo 1vs1 stealther hunting part.

on the SB front:
yep losing more to str/con debuff sucks.
Lack of a str/dex option sucks.

However it's nothing to do with the amount of spec points infils get
Now if this makes SBs really underperform then boost them in some way...

Now one point here - RvR doesn't exist in a vaccuum, not all your targets are other stealthers. SBs have the option of a big frontload PA (the styled part won't improve but the base part will be higher with a 2h), there are dex debuffs kicking around that won't hurt the SB's damage... so against non-stealther targets is it a different story? (that's a question not a statement )

Do SBs have any tools for killing casters or support classes better than infils?
(even slightly better since I'd take "losing a bit more WS from debuff" as being slightly worse in the 1vs1 inf vs sb fight)

 

[Bloodaxe_Springskalle]

lets not have a flamefest please - this thread was getting vaguely on topic - Flim

 

[Ogen]

Nerf scouts with shields!!!11 They make me very angry!!

 

[Bloodaxe_Springskalle]

Now one point here - RvR doesn't exist in a vaccuum, not all your targets are other stealthers. SBs have the option of a big frontload PA (the styled part won't improve but the base part will be higher with a 2h), there are dex debuffs kicking around that won't hurt the SB's damage... so against non-stealther targets is it a different story? (that's a question not a statement )

Do SBs have any tools for killing casters or support classes better than infils?
(even slightly better since I'd take "losing a bit more WS from debuff" as being slightly worse in the 1vs1 inf vs sb fight)

against other targets than assassins SB work decent, we still hit rather weak compared to our counterparts but high evade+debuffs help out alot and we arent completely useless in that departement.
using 2h weap as frontload isnt as good in these speedcast times tho, as a keen caster qcast stuff on us between PA and CD due to extremly slow attack speed and the fact that 2h PA doesent add much dmg compared to 1h.
tests i've done with my SB is that 2h PA usually add aprox 100 to PA but in the end it's CD that's the real killer.
killing casters is a bitch for any solo assassin in these brittle guard times, but on killable casters the dex/qui debuff doesent cripple the infil as if a caster dont get free of melee its dead anyway.

assassin is a popular class, thats why theres many assassins around from all realms, so being the underdog in every stealther fight a huge flaw where we got no merits to make up for it.

 

[Arnor]

oh and i think Ztyx was prolly sitting down on that picture.. looks like infil hit cap, and must have been ztyx sitting, u can see he have ok resists, and style damage is so high..

and again


if he was sitting(im pretty damn fucking sure of this) then the "You perform your Asshat perfectly(+xxx) would have been (+xxxx)
same thing if he had been af-debuffed

 

[rvn]

was thinking of posting the DW spec but then there's more differences so the comparison is different again...

in stealther wars yeah front pos is anytime (cept when someone's lagging and strafing around and upside down through you of course)

hmm 50dw using a 0.8 growth rate style vs 44 CS using 0.75 + 1.05 growth rate chain... A lot of things that'd affect which is better there (if you're only landing every 3rd hit then you're probably averaging ~0.75 growth rate for the CS, if you can land 3/4 you're getting about 0.82 growth rate)

in return the infil has no easy off-evade stun and has none of the little nuke things that have their uses

inf/ns don't seem too out of whack with respect to each other - at least on the solo 1vs1 stealther hunting part.

on the SB front:
yep losing more to str/con debuff sucks.
Lack of a str/dex option sucks.

However it's nothing to do with the amount of spec points infils get
Now if this makes SBs really underperform then boost them in some way...

Now one point here - RvR doesn't exist in a vaccuum, not all your targets are other stealthers. SBs have the option of a big frontload PA (the styled part won't improve but the base part will be higher with a 2h), there are dex debuffs kicking around that won't hurt the SB's damage... so against non-stealther targets is it a different story? (that's a question not a statement )

Do SBs have any tools for killing casters or support classes better than infils?
(even slightly better since I'd take "losing a bit more WS from debuff" as being slightly worse in the 1vs1 inf vs sb fight)

if a sb wants to use 2h to PA they also have to specc axe/sword specc for 2h dmg, and mastery of arms was removed so speccing 2h is no longer that viable..

but yes id say SB's are pretty strong fighting classes that cant debuff.

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

No problem, I'm still trying my best!

How many specs have you actually tried out youself if I may ask?

I'm guessing your reluctant to post your current spec and char setup - but feel free to do so anyways ^^

I'm 39th, 44cs, 34dw, 36st, 36 env with +14 to all bar dw which is +7 (had sc'd suit before wyrrds tests were published) using 99qual leg weapons heat/cold with a spirit offhand. And yes I do remember clipping vodkas lil ment with an unstyled hit and if he says 200 then fair nuff I'll take his word on it - wasn't hanging around on the battlements seeing as he had been a complete git and populated it with lots of nice orange con NS guards and eldritches. Now next time if he'd like to stand still for more than .00003 of a sec I'll demonstrate how to one shot a green ment. So please - take this as an example of me being a gimp with a sucky spec as i'd love to meet you 1v1 in the frontier.

 

[Vodkafairy]

with lower spec your growth rate will also be lower, i think you are kinda forgetting that. overtime dual shadows (0.8 gr at 50 spec) will do more overtime damage than garrote/achilles (0.75/1.03 at 44 spec) considering achilles will get evaded sometimes

next to the offhand hits. i remember from the calculations i did that a 1% increase in dw resulted in a direct 1% increase in damage. this is caused by the extra damage and haste effect (that effect is a bit less now, because weaponspeeds of legendaries are closer to each other than pre-toa crafted weapons). then again the procs now are better, and increased chance to proc debuff is very nice

Actual DW = 25+(DW skill * .68)

((Growth Rate * Weapon Spec) * Effective Speed) / Unstyled Damage Cap

Effective Speed = SPD * ( 1 - ( Quickness - 60 ) / 500) ) * ( 1 - Haste%)

feel free to calculate away. reading tests on one subject doesn't make you a master of the entire deal with assassin mechanics asp, theres a lot more to it

did you even know how the dw haste effect works?

 

[Vodkafairy]

I'm 39th, 44cs, 34dw, 36st, 36 env with +14 to all bar dw which is +7 (had sc'd suit before wyrrds tests were published) using 99qual leg weapons heat/cold with a spirit offhand. And yes I do remember clipping vodkas lil ment with an unstyled hit and if he says 200 then fair nuff I'll take his word on it - wasn't hanging around on the battlements seeing as he had been a complete git and populated it with lots of nice orange con NS guards and eldritches. Now next time if he'd like to stand still for more than .00003 of a sec I'll demonstrate how to one shot a green ment. So please - take this as an example of me being a gimp with a sucky spec as i'd love to meet you 1v1 in the frontier.

hahaha, you are so funny you honestly think im going to stand still near the only climbpoint in a keep at level 40? i don't think so in reality its hard to get PA off, its something you can't learn by reading tests, only by experience

also, i didnt put a single guard down, i know Wyrd didn't do any tests on it, but you can trust me on this: you cant put more than 1 guard of the same type on the same wallpiece of a keep. most of the guards come with the keep itself the nightshade there was a bought guard, can only make one of them every ~30 (?) min