Indian university qualifications

[old.user4556]

Something's got me scratching my head.

I've been reviewing a lot of profiles of prospective workers both at work and on the net, all of whom are Indian and work for Indian technology companies.

They all seem to have reams of qualifications at a rather young age such as computing science or computer engineering. In addition, they all seem to have "first class" degrees with distinction and some even have an MBA to go along with that. This is in stark contrast to the actual quality of the candidates who seem to be lacking in any sort of savvy that would indicate such a serious track record in education. It also has me thinking "with those qualifications, you could work anywhere you liked; why an Indian technology company?!".

I'm a bit cynical that they really do have first class degrees in computing science, or that their degrees are anywhere near the same standards of the west. Does anyone know anything more about foreign degrees from such places?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Some might lie, but india does have a fairly respectful education system, from what i've gathered.

By western, do you mean english/US education?

Because could say a few words on that

 

[old.user4556]

It's not about lies as such, I just wonder what the standards are.

 

[rynnor]

It's not about lies as such, I just wonder what the standards are.

MBA's just indicate ambition but nothing about intelligence and that goes for UK/US ones too.

Im not sure about Indian University's - considering how corrupt most of their society is it would be a stretch to imagine their unis are somehow unaffected?

 

[Chilly]

My view of the Indian and Chinese candidates I've interviewed or vetted (about 50, so not exactly a scientifically valid sample size..) is that they may well be highly educated but they are drones. They will never speak up or volunteer anything. For some jobs, that's cool. In an industry that thrives on innovation and moving quickly, it's a show stopper.

 

[TdC]

I'm sorry to say I generally have a rather dim view of our Indian expat workers, but that aside I meant to comment on high(er) uni merits: they differ from country to country. a German, for example, will generally not think much of your honors or cum laude, because the criteria for gaining those things are lower in DE than in other places. There's a whole list of countries and what their uni's want to see to award merit on wikipedia. Not downplaying anyone's efforts, but hey ho there you go.

 

[gohan]

I'm getting distinctions in every module at college at the mo just for turning up...... at least it feels that way, in 2 weeks time I'll have enought credits at distiction for uni of surrey, and I'm only halfway through the year xD (they want 23/60 at distiction, I'll have 27/27 by mid March) Still waiting on Southampton to offer me a place tho, only like 6 places higher than surrey, but Russle grp uni and all that

 

[old.user4556]

My view of the Indian and Chinese candidates I've interviewed or vetted (about 50, so not exactly a scientifically valid sample size..) is that they may well be highly educated but they are drones. They will never speak up or volunteer anything. For some jobs, that's cool. In an industry that thrives on innovation and moving quickly, it's a show stopper.

Nail + head.

In my experience it's almost as if they've found the people on the street. They have no business acumen, no savvy, no interest to drive things forward or develop new ideas. They'll do what they're told, and that is absolutely it. Once they hit the wall, they don't think "how do i get over this wall?", they simply stop and say "ok, what do i do now?". There are a few rare exceptions, but that seems to be the majority.

What concerns me is that these foreign technology graduates with firsts are ten a penny, so why even bother looking at UK talent when we can rape and pillage cheap talent from overseas? To quote Tom from another thread it's "competition, deal with it", but personally I wouldn't give 90% a second interview.

 

[Chilly]

Nail + head.

In my experience it's almost as if they've found the people on the street. They have no business acumen, no savvy, no interest to drive things forward or develop new ideas. They'll do what they're told, and that is absolutely it. Once they hit the wall, they don't think "how do i get over this wall?", they simply stop and say "ok, what do i do now?". There are a few rare exceptions, but that seems to be the majority.

What concerns me is that these foreign technology graduates with firsts are ten a penny, so why even bother looking at UK talent when we can rape and pillage cheap talent from overseas? To quote Tom from another thread it's "competition, deal with it", but personally I wouldn't give 90% a second interview.

I've also seen Indians who moved here to study who have turned out just fine - I really do think it's a product of their university system somehow.

 

[Hawkwind]

Indian's educated in India - The problem is they teach parrot fashion and do not learn to analyse a situation or problem and creatively come up with a solution. Have worked with many here in Dubai and 95% are as stated above. Out of 15 Engineers we had only 1 was capable to a normal European standard, he was educated in the US

Be aware that Indian CV's are about 70% bullshit and Indian University degrees can be purchased. Always get them Attested and checked. They do not see anything wrong in false CV's and regard it as nothing more than direct advertising to get a foot in the door. Once you sit them down in interviews you soon find out the truth. I now make them sit a test prior to the interview. If they don't score high enough then I don't bother going any further.

 

[old.user4556]

Oh don't get me started on CV embellishment . Some of the utter BS I've read over the years is unbelievable, yet we lap it up.

 

[DaGaffer]

What concerns me is that these foreign technology graduates with firsts are ten a penny, so why even bother looking at UK talent when we can rape and pillage cheap talent from overseas? To quote Tom from another thread it's "competition, deal with it", but personally I wouldn't give 90% a second interview.

TBH anyone with half a brain is aware of the relative merits of various countries' education systems; large companies build it right into their org chart (e.g. I have a mate who's a project manager for a big company beginning with O and ending in Racle, he admits that he's basically the interface between the creative developers in California and the grunts in Bangalore, he exists because he sits between time zones.)

The problem with UK "talent" is that generally speaking, irrespective of cost, most UK devs wouldn't want to do the boring crap thrown at Indians. I'd also add that I don't really look at people's degrees as a benchmark anymore; BScs are oversupplied so its all about the experience (which is unfortunate for new graduates, but there it is - I recognised that problem 20 years ago and got myself an MSc. and even then that was purely a "foot in the door" mechanism to at least get interviewed; but it did work).

NB. I watched a really good video on TED the other week from Sir Ken Robinson that nailed the problem with the current education system very clearly; the whole system is designed for the needs of an industrial base that we in the west don't really have anymore, not for innovation and creativity; and the Indian education system is the logical conclusion of that "cog in a machine" philosophy.

 

[old.user4556]

Sadly cheap labour overrides the half-a-brain situ Gaff.

This leads me onto another point; what would you encourage your kids to do at university?

 

[Wij]

Sadly cheap labour overrides the half-a-brain situ Gaff.

This leads me onto another point; what would you encourage your kids to do at university?

LSD

 

[DaGaffer]

Sadly cheap labour overrides the half-a-brain situ Gaff.

This leads me onto another point; what would you encourage your kids to do at university?

Unfortunately, the "what" is less important than the "where". They can do basket weaving for all I care, so long as they do it at an elite university.

 

[old.user4556]

I've given great consideration in going back to Edinburgh Uni and retraining from scratch.

 

[DaGaffer]

I've given great consideration in going back to Edinburgh Uni and retraining from scratch.

Doing what?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Trying to f*ck lesbians, drink yourself silly and masturbate too much, like in any uni

 

[old.user4556]

Doing what?

I haven't decided that yet, I've not done serious research into demand.

When I was struggling to find work the last time I finished uni, I was talking about going back to do Civ Eng, but I don't know what the demand would be like. Mech Eng is also on the short list. I have a couple of younger mates that finished up a year or so ago and have walked into very well paid engineering jobs - one in oil and gas, the other into another energy company that's more renewable centric.

What do you think? You're more wise (read: old fart ) than me Gaff .

Trying to f*ck lesbians, drink yourself silly and masturbate too much, like in any uni

Call me boring, but I've had my time at that, I'm taking this very seriously indeed.

 

[DaGaffer]

Honestly? I'd avoid engineering like the plague. Hell, I did avoid engineering like the plague; I have a HNC in Mechanical & Production Engineering that I did on day release before I went to Uni (I did an apprenticeship at BAe). I switched to a Management degree because engineers aren't valued in the UK, and you'd really need a MSc at minimum anyway. Almost every one of my friends who did Mech Eng and Elec Eng at Uni ended up in IT. The only two who didn't got themselves PhDs and one now lives in California designing satellites and the other (my cousin) lives in Singapore and is a patent lawyer; so it can be lucrative and exciting, but probably only if you're prepared to put in about 7 years in academia.

Civil engineering is a bit different, although once again you're looking at least five years to be employable, and thanks to the various European property crashes there are a lot of civil engineers, surveyors and architects scrabbling for work right now.

Me? If I was going back I'd do law. If I win the Euromillions I'm going to go back and do History, but that would be for fun, not employability.

*edit* I forgot one friend who did get a good job in engineering without a higher degree. Bizarrely he went to work for company that builds machines that make wallpaper, and I think he's still there, and I know he's been all over the world building wallpaper production lines.

 

[mycenae]

Personally, I think what you encourage kids to do at Uni very much depends on a) whether they listen to you and b) trying to predict the future in terms of the job market. Unless you're going into a job that demands a specific university course (such as nursing/teaching etc) then you may as well do something that interests you, because a lot of people these days have degrees that have bugger all to do with their profession, but have stood them in good stead in terms of thinking for themselves and not being a sheep.
Vae reliably informs me that a lot of people who end up doing accountancy or finance did things like physics and maths at Uni....numerical based and helpful, but nothing to do with actual accountancy!

 

[Wij]

And there's always dance.

 

[rynnor]

I'll advise my kids to study something they enjoy - I studied to get work and though it worked I wouldnt do it again if I had a rerun

 

[Vae]

On the subject of law, my friends who are lawyers would recommend staying clear of Criminal law and Family Law (anything involving Legal Aid) because the government is changing so many of the rules at the moment they wouldn't recommend anyone going into those areas.

 

[Scouse]

I'd advise my kids to pull off a big crime and be minted for the rest of their lives.

Hard work is for chumps

 

[Hawkwind]

Honestly? I'd avoid engineering like the plague. Hell, I did avoid engineering like the plague; I have a HNC in Mechanical & Production Engineering that I did on day release before I went to Uni (I did an apprenticeship at BAe). I switched to a Management degree because engineers aren't valued in the UK, and you'd really need a MSc at minimum anyway. Almost every one of my friends who did Mech Eng and Elec Eng at Uni ended up in IT. The only two who didn't got themselves PhDs and one now lives in California designing satellites and the other (my cousin) lives in Singapore and is a patent lawyer; so it can be lucrative and exciting, but probably only if you're prepared to put in about 7 years in academia.

Mechanical Engineering is good money if you know where to look. Oil, Gas and Water industries pay extremely well. You must be willing to work abroad. I would agree that Engineering in general is undervalued in the UK but then so is teaching and many other skills. That change happened in the 80's when UK moved towards service industries rather than manufacturing. There is a massive shortage of skilled engineers around the world right now. In the aviation industry it is becoming a huge problem. There is a massive shortage or Engineers for the worlds expanding airlines. I wouldn't include 'waste a space' or any other UK manufacturer in that. They generally pay shit money. I did it myself for a few years working for Smiths Industries Aerospace now GE. Only way you made good money working for them was in overseas contracts.

 

[Hawkwind]

Oh don't get me started on CV embellishment . Some of the utter BS I've read over the years is unbelievable, yet we lap it up.

Had a CV a month back that stated BTEC was a Bachelor's in Technical Electronics & Computing! Didn't even do the basics of checking the web first. Felt like setting up an interview just so I could rip him a new one! Just went in the bin along with the other BS ones. Still the funniest I've read was a 22 year old who claimed to have 3 separate degrees! Very impressive.

 

[DaGaffer]

Only way you made good money working for them was in overseas contracts.

Which is what all of my friends at BAe did. When I headed off to Uni, they were all heading off to the States to work at Boeing, Bell and others. Thing is, 20 years later most of them are still contracting; getting decent enough money but doing the same old shit year in year out. I put myself through college by doing design contracting in the holidays but by christ it was dull. Contracting is OK, but in engineering it seems to become a treadmill you can't get off.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Look, just hire the guy who claims to like shoes in his CV.

 

[Hawkwind]

Which is what all of my friends at BAe did. When I headed off to Uni, they were all heading off to the States to work at Boeing, Bell and others. Thing is, 20 years later most of them are still contracting; getting decent enough money but doing the same old shit year in year out. I put myself through college by doing design contracting in the holidays but by christ it was dull. Contracting is OK, but in engineering it seems to become a treadmill you can't get off.

I managed it, moved into support side then Project Management. I do well at it because I can speak to the Engineering teams on their level and understand their limitations and what they can really achieve. Most other Project Managers I work with do not have that technical background. The PMP courses do not take that long to get through, did mine in 6-7 months. Most of it is common sense. Once you have that you can take it almost anywhere.

I did the contract thing for a few years, it was a good experience. I actually worked on the BAe Hawks in Oman and UAE, on site rep for a couple of years. I nearly went to Boeing in 96 (B777 Entry Into Service Teams) but declined as I did not want to travel around flitting from one place to another every 2-3 years.