Important - Radar Accusations

[Sendraks]

Any good moderator, anywhere, should take measures to ensure that witch hunts don't take place on the forums they are responsible for.

This is what Flim is doing, it is a shame that so many people do not see the value in this.

Unless they are moderating forums on witch-hunt.com, in which case I expect this kind of thing would be encouraged...or something.

 

[Nuked]

you make good points, but what exactly does a 3day ban do? (if mythic/goa actually give 1! alot of people do say "xxx uses radar, nerf" ofc ... but at the same time it's upto the reading to decide for themselves, i was crowned Mr GBR 3 years running ... now you decide if what i say is just BS or the truth [lightpr0n]http://boomeh.com/Salty/NukedNaked.JPG[/lightpr0n]

as said above myself i do prefer to see proof before i go listening to the crap people post here (not everything, if someone dings i do tend to believe ) if anyone has something to post here about me i have no problem with that .. i'd be a bit but well, unless they have proof i'm not really that bothered! either way you guys run the boards the way you wish but i think reseting post count only works on loxleyhood, and banning is only useful vs racists/sexists etc etc

Flim isnt doing the wrong thing but at the same time nothing said here should be taken as the words of jesus without proof, shouldnt need to set up a thread ban for this to be realised

 

[Aloca]

what exactly do you think that naming and shaming someone on FH for suspected radar would achieve?

artifact encounters are different - generally the proof is in the post, the accused talks back and people say "bah you didn't have any right to the artifact in the first place".

The point you say with artifact encounters is exactly the same for Radar accusations. If someone accuse someone of stealing a artifact people always ask for proof, If some proof is given it is up to the accused to give counter proof.
When someone accuse someone else for radaring people does not belive it just becouse he say so. You need solid proof with a video then people MIGHT agree with you they usualy doesnt anyway. Just read any of the radar accusation threads is there any of them that ended with the targeted found guildty by the majority?

If you want to dictate this forum the way you do atm you should atleast be consistant. No accusations of anything bad done in any form can be done.
This include Radar, Stealing, Zerging (this can harm someone's ingame reputation also), and so on.
As you wrote your self you dont want people even to post if they have proof so even if someone have it they should turn to rightnow.

Actualy any post containing ANYTHING at all that is negative in any way with naming any guild or player is harming their reputation. It shouldnt be up to you to decide if the results of the accusations or how serious violation is acceptable. It is the accused.

Now conclusion of this is that the Forums can include topics like following:
Good fight, thx for help, PvE or RvR events. Gratz threads. Off-topic posts, Problems with game. SC templates and help me threads. There isnt much other topics that would pass this very hard dictated forum without accusing anyone of anything.

 

[Clipse]

yaps My name has been fooked up from FH.

Then again I don't expect you to ban every single Midd/Hibb.

 

[Nuked]

jesus someone could have atleast told me my post sounded so retarded, i just re-read it for the first time, i know i was tired but that takes the piss

 

[Flimgoblin]

The point you say with artifact encounters is exactly the same for Radar accusations. If someone accuse someone of stealing a artifact people always ask for proof, If some proof is given it is up to the accused to give counter proof.
When someone accuse someone else for radaring people does not belive it just becouse he say so. You need solid proof with a video then people MIGHT agree with you they usualy doesnt anyway. Just read any of the radar accusation threads is there any of them that ended with the targeted found guildty by the majority?

If you want to dictate this forum the way you do atm you should atleast be consistant. No accusations of anything bad done in any form can be done.
This include Radar, Stealing, Zerging (this can harm someone's ingame reputation also), and so on.
As you wrote your self you dont want people even to post if they have proof so even if someone have it they should turn to rightnow.

Actualy any post containing ANYTHING at all that is negative in any way with naming any guild or player is harming their reputation. It shouldnt be up to you to decide if the results of the accusations or how serious violation is acceptable. It is the accused.

Now conclusion of this is that the Forums can include topics like following:
Good fight, thx for help, PvE or RvR events. Gratz threads. Off-topic posts, Problems with game. SC templates and help me threads. There isnt much other topics that would pass this very hard dictated forum without accusing anyone of anything.

Doesn't take a majority of posters to agree for someone's rep to get damaged unfairly - and the people reading to the end of these 10 page whines aren't the majority of the people reading FH.

And given that artifact stealing (when it's not a breach of the CoC) and zerging are crimes entirely made up by the community so discussing it and "trying" them within the community is perfectly acceptible.

Radar however is a breach of the CoC and should be left to GOA to police.

You can't post "evidence" that you weren't radaring - you can post your side of the story in an artifact-argument.

 

[Driwen]

The point you say with artifact encounters is exactly the same for Radar accusations. If someone accuse someone of stealing a artifact people always ask for proof, If some proof is given it is up to the accused to give counter proof.
When someone accuse someone else for radaring people does not belive it just becouse he say so. You need solid proof with a video then people MIGHT agree with you they usualy doesnt anyway. Just read any of the radar accusation threads is there any of them that ended with the targeted found guildty by the majority?

uhm people have believed posters who gave no proof, but hinted that they had a movie and would post it later and named a few big guilds. However 15 pages later the movie was still not posted and the thread died off and some little damage to a few guilds name was done.

And as far as I know [guild X] has never had any proof posted against them that they used radar. However everyone did call them [parody of name including the word radar], which was caused because just a lot of people made posts about them using radar.

People tend to think that if there is smoke (someone claiming person x uses radar) than there is a fire. Certainly if the smoke is either big or around for along time(basically if 50 different people claim it, it must be true).
So yes people will believe people cheat, if just enough people or a few respectable persons say that they do.

 

[Nuked]

Last edited by Flimgoblin : Yesterday at 03:29 PM.

 

[Aloca]

[guild X]

 

[Marc]

on the subject of artifact stealing, why do some threads get locked within 1 page and others left to go on for 15 pages thus, harming the persons reputation even further. Im asking this here as I pmd a mod and got no reply, nada.

 

[Tilda]

You didn't PM me.
The answer is simple, mods dont automaticly know if a reputation damaging thread is made. We are not omnipresent, we also have lives off the boards and thus may not see them. However to make our lives slightly easier you can use the report this post button.

Tilda

 

[Marc]

You didn't PM me.
The answer is simple, mods dont automaticly know if a reputation damaging thread is made. We are not omnipresent, we also have lives off the boards and thus may not see them. However to make our lives slightly easier you can use the report this post button.

Tilda

oh look at that, in my sent box, 11th September 2004, message about Artifact Stealing threads, sent to....Tilda.

So yes, i did PM you.

 

[Nuked]

all mods seem to think different ways tbh, you'll always likely to piss 1 of them off and get your thread closed even if mod x doesnt mind mod y will!

 

[Rulke]

all mods seem to think different ways tbh, you'll always likely to piss 1 of them off and get your thread closed even if mod x doesnt mind mod y will!

ah but if you buy the new DVD box set of FH, all the mods have the same voice

 

[Rulke]

ah but if you buy the new DVD box set of FH, all the mods have the same voice

too subtle?

 

[Flimgoblin]

too subtle?

I didn't get it
noone got my "erm... the first one" quote either

(shaun of the dead! ffs!)

 

[Rulke]

was referring to the new star wards DVDs where they replaced all the stormtrooper voices with the voice of jango fett cos they're all clones or some shit.

DIE LUCAS, DIE!

 

[Brommix]

I understand that being a Mod on these boards can be frustrating work, and its one where you dont get any credit for it. Not unlike being a GM of a guild, leading large raids, endless spamming and frustration. But sometimes the rewards are there, unfortunately leading and creating stuff in a game of conflict doesnt work when people cheat. What is also unfortunate is that GOA doesnt do anything active unless you as customer acquire software and knowhow enough to be a technician, to frame these individuals. You talk about policing ? This is like living in a totallly anarchistic society and the only reason there arent any more crimes out there in DAOC country is because accounts costs cash, most guilds ARE respectable and that there are limits to what you can steal or hack your way into. I have several times PMed GOA GMs when I have knowledge of certain radar abusers being active at that moment. So maybe they shouldnt react to random spammer ## and that is true, but what is important is that GOA is only acting as secret police if they are acting at all, and by being a secret police noone knows if they do their job, and that is just not good enough for me.
The problem with the policy here is that it doesnt have a continuety in its policy of policing, its ok for me totally flame someone with derogatory remarks, and as said earlier, accuse people of stealing in game, but not accuse people of cheating in rvr ?. Where is the difference, and where is the difference in the damage to someones reputation ?. All i see is that because you dont see the big picture you inadvertedly helps radar users by not allowing those of us, who wants to root them out, to fight them with the weapons we have.
I think you should applaud Aloco and Cens for having the guts to speak out about this, we all know that atm its mostly hibs using it(atleast in organized groups), so for them to speak out and facing flames from their own realm is not a pleasant thing its rather courageous infact.
I believe you as Mods dont put enough faith in where the source of the information come from, because everyone have a reputation in this game that is what is our strength, and we dont only drag someones name through the mud we also very well risk dragging our own through the mud. Let the community be the judge, not some rules which arent thought through.

 

[Divinia]

At the moment every fuckin' alb and mid are sayign all hibs are using radar in more or less serious posts.. do something or doesent the policy apply here?

im a hib hence im radar accused in every 2nd post i read here, guessi shall take the shit?

 

[Calo]

I understand that being a Mod on these boards can be frustrating work, and its one where you dont get any credit for it. Not unlike being a GM of a guild, leading large raids, endless spamming and frustration. But sometimes the rewards are there, unfortunately leading and creating stuff in a game of conflict doesnt work when people cheat. What is also unfortunate is that GOA doesnt do anything active unless you as customer acquire software and knowhow enough to be a technician, to frame these individuals. You talk about policing ? This is like living in a totallly anarchistic society and the only reason there arent any more crimes out there in DAOC country is because accounts costs cash, most guilds ARE respectable and that there are limits to what you can steal or hack your way into. I have several times PMed GOA GMs when I have knowledge of certain radar abusers being active at that moment. So maybe they shouldnt react to random spammer ## and that is true, but what is important is that GOA is only acting as secret police if they are acting at all, and by being a secret police noone knows if they do their job, and that is just not good enough for me.
The problem with the policy here is that it doesnt have a continuety in its policy of policing, its ok for me totally flame someone with derogatory remarks, and as said earlier, accuse people of stealing in game, but not accuse people of cheating in rvr ?. Where is the difference, and where is the difference in the damage to someones reputation ?. All i see is that because you dont see the big picture you inadvertedly helps radar users by not allowing those of us, who wants to root them out, to fight them with the weapons we have.
I think you should applaud Aloco and Cens for having the guts to speak out about this, we all know that atm its mostly hibs using it(atleast in organized groups), so for them to speak out and facing flames from their own realm is not a pleasant thing its rather courageous infact.
I believe you as Mods dont put enough faith in where the source of the information come from, because everyone have a reputation in this game that is what is our strength, and we dont only drag someones name through the mud we also very well risk dragging our own through the mud. Let the community be the judge, not some rules which arent thought through.

so where is the evidence that its mostly hibs who use it... cmon where are the stats, how do u know? are u 100% sure of it? do u actually know 1 radar user ur 100% sure of ?

nope, thats typically for albion, big mouths but when we ask facts, we get flames because as we all know, u guys dont have any...

 

[Clipse]

At the moment every fuckin' alb and mid are sayign all hibs are using radar in more or less serious posts.. do something or doesent the policy apply here?

im a hib hence im radar accused in every 2nd post i read here, guessi shall take the shit?

people seems to forget, even though those stats said 41% from Hibernia, it also said 59% from the other realms too.

 

[Flimgoblin]

people seems to forget, even though those stats said 41% from Hibernia, it also said 59% from the other realms too.

indeed - there's cheating arseholes in all three realms.

 

[Culanan]

people seems to forget, even though those stats said 41% from Hibernia, it also said 59% from the other realms too.

It's unfair to flame individuals from a realm for being radar users, it's unscrupulous players that present a problem and that reduces the game for everyone.

If so many hibs are rerolling realm then you could expect more of the same on alb/mid, yet it's not the realm that's responsible for policing radar users or encouraging them to use radar in the first place, that decision starts and ends with the player.

The fact more people downloaded for hibernian maps is co-incidental since players buy/sell/trade/move accounts quite frequently and those players can play in any of the 3 realms on any server they wish.

Don't blame Hibernia, blame the arses (not hibernians in general, since it's a realm, not a religion ) who feel they need radar to compete in the first place and then hope that GOA has an effective way of dealing with this!

 

[Brommix]

where do i blame Hibernia as a realm ??? MOST hibs dont cheat i know that, and those of you who go into a spiral when a finger is pointed, dont any of you ever think about what the cheaters in this game do to the rest of players ? or dont you care. The maker of the radar program had percentages of which maps where downloaded, and from the 3 realms, most where hib maps, considering hib have the lowest population as well, then that COULD indicate that there are most radar users in hib.
Secondly from spending several sad thousands of hours in this game, and ALOT of them stealthed at runways where groups come by, I can tell you 100 procent that there are several hib groups who use radar, it is not proof which I can submit to any of you, but it is no coincidence that other stealthers as Aloca and Censi share those views, and to put it straight I do know of some albs who use radar as well, though most of them are soloers, sofar I have only 1 alb group i know who used radar, there are not high RR though.
Now your choice is then to brand me a liar, if you believe i have some alternate motive for doing this, I dont!.
All I want is to get rid of the cheaters.

 

[Culanan]

It's not that hibs don't care, it's how out of hand things get when people point those fingers.

One person with radar, the rest of the guild gets dragged into it (even though they might actually not know that their driver has it!) then the insinuations and false belief it's a Hibernian problem only begins.

It's amazing how angry and careless people can be in these matters, they don't care what they say or who they insult while pointing fingers.

If I found out a guildmate/friend was using radar I would ask them to stop immediately! I like to think a friend of mine would listen, if they didn't then I'm not sure if I could bring myself report them but I sure as hell would ban them from guild rvr grps until it sunk in.

 

[censi]

accusations go hand in hand with general frustration and I would guess a large proportion of radar allegations are unfounded.

Theres literally dozens of players I suspect use radar (bucket loads of hibs to be sure). And out of those dozens I could probably be wrong about say as many as half of them.

Theres a few players though where its gone beyond me getting added on by them countless times, or destealthing for a split second after they leave clip to see them uturn and come right to your spot, or getting them bee line me from the TK seconds after I have even got my first volley off (BB kill for the win!) Its after month of RVRing and seeing the really active radar users that are out on the battlefields a lot that you find the blatent ones. And its when you mention their name on team speak other people confirm similar suspicions in their droves and recount events similar to you.

I dont think the boards would ever become like a place where people get torn apart. To be honest if someone makes a radar accusation with no evidence they tend to more harm to their own reputation that the person they name. I would be very happy if someone say accused me of radar using and posted some fraps footage of it to confirm it. Like that footage I posted of a minstral that ran past me when I was at the top of a hill in oldschool shade mode with camo up I destealthed when he was out of view behind a tree and restealthed, 5 seconds later he has beelined to the spot. His explanation of the event was that I had volley'd him and he /faced me (erm). If he had said like he just ran up their to check for a volley ranger then fair play.

To cut a long story short I named 3 people who I feel havent just been active radar users. More like they been taking the piss with how blatent they are and how long they get away with it.

I totally sympathize that they have not really got the tools or the manpower to really clamp down on this but I just find it bad that the real blatent users that the whole active RVR community knows about, can just get away with it for so long. I think the lack of bannings and naming and shaming promote radar use a lot. (I been playing 3 years roughly I know none that have been banned)

I also hate this whole slap wrist policy. If you get caught using this thing you should get insta banned, or at the very least 0 RP'd on all characters and insta banned next time.

 

[Flimgoblin]

I also hate this whole slap wrist policy. If you get caught using this thing you should get insta banned, or at the very least 0 RP'd on all characters and insta banned next time.

I'm pretty sure that's a Mythic policy, at least Requiel seems quite happy to bring out the ban stick for blatant cheaters (see a thread on macro crafting in the excal-general I believe it was) - I really hope that's the policy for radaring come 1.70 live.

 

[Runolas]

where do i blame Hibernia as a realm ??? MOST hibs dont cheat i know that, and those of you who go into a spiral when a finger is pointed, dont any of you ever think about what the cheaters in this game do to the rest of players ? or dont you care. The maker of the radar program had percentages of which maps where downloaded, and from the 3 realms, most where hib maps, considering hib have the lowest population as well, then that COULD indicate that there are most radar users in hib.
Secondly from spending several sad thousands of hours in this game, and ALOT of them stealthed at runways where groups come by, I can tell you 100 procent that there are several hib groups who use radar, it is not proof which I can submit to any of you, but it is no coincidence that other stealthers as Aloca and Censi share those views, and to put it straight I do know of some albs who use radar as well, though most of them are soloers, sofar I have only 1 alb group i know who used radar, there are not high RR though. Now your choice is then to brand me a liar, if you believe i have some alternate motive for doing this, I dont!. All I want is to get rid of the cheaters.

In my experiance from both grp and solo play I could say that I share your view on who uses radar. I usually try to postion myself on along a trail often used by either Hibs or Albs. The clasic example is ppl running past you and out cliprange - you jump a solo guy inc. and then have them running back at you b4 you can say pie.

I think Midgard is somewhere in the middle, some drivers use it and some soloe'ers. I must say that after spending a lot of my time stealthes in Emain you get a good feeling of whom to suspect using radar in your own real, but very few words are spoken about it.

There are several Hib-drivers that are more likely to use radar than not. I've also taken notice of some of the films I've seen and they seldom seem to show how they found their pray. Some 2-3 months ago I saw a really good movie about a Hib grp, and I must say that it is remarkable how they always seem to come in from the side or back. I've played my Healer as a driver so I'm not totally blank on this matter.

Anyway I've seen it too many times and to be speak frankly atm I don't care, cuz there is little to be done about the matter. I have taken several SS of situiations, but SS can seldom show the whole "picture", thuse openeing up for debate. The only rock solid proof is using fraps, but then again how many ppl are playing daoc with fraps to get proof of cheating. Using a forum like FH is perhaps the only arena that can bring some more "evidence" to the table and imho name and shame is the only thing that will hurt.

A simple fact is that we know ppl use radar in daoc, and the users are more likely to be active in RvR than not. Thus having a clue about whom to look out for should not be that hard. I really hope that NF will be what I hope and that the haxor peeps either stop or are banned.

When it comes to punishment stripping of RP from cheating would really hurt more than a 3 day ban from the game. Sadly (imho) GOA and Mythic do not say whom they manage to take and stripping of RP's would enable ppl to pinpoint those that got caugth.

 

[enigma]

One way to explain the higher number of DL'ed radar maps in hib is because emain is a hibernian zone and all 3 realms tend to play there more than other places. That is unless the radar dev had numbers on what realm the downloaders played ofcourse..

 

[enkor]

the map numbers were of the frontier keep zone (sauvage, connacht and whatever), afaik.