How to spec a thane for fg rvr?

[Eithor]

daoc_xianghua
Nice to see that Lethul has a selfappointed babysitter, in his place

About your question.
Now if you backtrack a couple of pages and re-read my post (or well actually read it) you'll see that I've already mention about what he speaks of.

Wait, let me help you, here ya go:
"I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but do so with some kind of facts/stats, not with "I'm been in more leet fg rvr grps than you, i know how to play a thane/any class soooo much more then anyone else".
Thats ^^ laughable and opens up for no constructive diskussion (because i'd just say, "well come back when you have a rr11+ thane, then i might take you seriously" - that kind of argument, and that of yours is so weak and none-constructable)."

You be happy now?



I agree about Horner btw, he do alot of things in the right order etc. If the end result is getting rps with a low ratio of selfdeaths, then he's clearly a winner.
Then again, it seems he shuns the challenge and want as many odds as possible, in his favour. For most other people thats boring, but if it makes his day, good for him

For me it's enough to know i'd beat him easily (1vs1, no di-bot)if he had a thane, no matter rr, race and spec, because i know so much more how to utilize my thane in different situations, with the existing limitations and benefits of "my" class. Also i think i got a decent shot vs him (as sorc) and only him with no bot

 

[Septina]

daoc_xianghua
Nice to see that Lethul has a selfappointed babysitter, in his place

About your question.
Now if you backtrack a couple of pages and re-read my post (or well actually read it) you'll see that I've already mention about what he speaks of.

Wait, let me help you, here ya go:
"I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but do so with some kind of facts/stats, not with "I'm been in more leet fg rvr grps than you, i know how to play a thane/any class soooo much more then anyone else".
Thats ^^ laughable and opens up for no constructive diskussion (because i'd just say, "well come back when you have a rr11+ thane, then i might take you seriously" - that kind of argument, and that of yours is so weak and none-constructable)."

You be happy now?



I agree about Horner btw, he do alot of things in the right order etc. If the end result is getting rps with a low ratio of selfdeaths, then he's clearly a winner.
Then again, it seems he shuns the challenge and want as many odds as possible, in his favour. For most other people thats boring, but if it makes his day, good for him

For me it's enough to know i'd beat him easily (1vs1, no di-bot)if he had a thane, no matter rr, race and spec, because i know so much more how to utilize my thane in different situations, with the existing limitations and benefits of "my" class. Also i think i got a decent shot vs him (as sorc) and only him with no bot

Think what most people are saying isnt that you know fuckall about thanes but that you might not have as much full group vs full group experience as the others that has posted in this thread. Now, i have to agree that they didnt necessarily use the nicest terms or expressions but however, they are correct when it comes to fg specs for a thane to a certain degree, i'm sure there are multiple speccs that works but, there will always be one specc that is the 'fotm' specc which works the best.

Anyway, as it has been mentioned before, this thread is NOT about speccing a thane in general, it's about what specc is the most effective (fotm) for a thane in an fg vs fg situation these days.

 

[Davejohnson]

so now soloing successfully is called skill? =p

 

[Cromcruaich]

so now soloing successfully is called skill? =p

Probably a throw away comment from you here, and without asking for your definitions of solo, skill and successful its hard for anyone to give your question proper consideration without simply starting another tit for tat argument in this entertaining thread.

 

[Arethir]

Hm, still no explaining stats/facts that even try to change my mind

Fact: They got more fg vs fg experience than you have.

I posted earlier why I think I'm better off with the spec I have than the one you have. Guess you must of missed that post as you didn't respond to it, or answer the questions i asked in it.

And so have others in this thread. And untill you reply to these replies, I don't see any reason to take you serious in this kind of posts, as you've obviously not even bothered to read others replies to your posts.

 

[Gahn]

so now soloing successfully is called skill? =p

Well depends on what char but surely it does.

 

[liloe]

Sorry, but you obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about. The stuff I wrote wasn't fanboy writing, it was facts.

You're taking stuff too serious Arethir =)) Read my earlier posts and you'll find that I agree with Dreami and Duact aswell =) I just found your way of writing it so funny =)

 

[Davejohnson]

so because horner can lifetap/ml9 other soloers to death, means he knows how to play a sorc? =p

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

so because horner can lifetap/ml9 other soloers to death, means he knows how to play a sorc? =p

Grats, you managed to put Sorc, lifetap and ML9 into one sentence. I am astonished.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

either you talking about some1 else or you just try to make things up so they suit you. i never ever played a caster on UK cluster, well except for a chanter in OF which i got bored of at rr3 or 4 cant even remember. didnt even play some1 else caster there so what you are saying makes no sense at all.
maybe your selfclaimed good memory aint so good after all?

Ahh, then I mixed you up with that Xxxcccalibur dude. Sorry about that.

Same league of FH retard troll though, so my points remain.

 

[Cromcruaich]

so because horner can lifetap/ml9 other soloers to death, means he knows how to play a sorc? =p

Would there be any point trying to discuss this in a reasonable manner with you, or would the old tried and tested soundbites keep coming through? I just want to know before I waste any more time.

 

[Cromcruaich]

Ahh, then I mixed you up with that Xxxcccalibur dude. Sorry about that.

Same league of FH retard troll though, so my points remain.

Never say die! Go get him tiger.

 

[Genedril]

Grats, you managed to put Sorc, lifetap and ML9 into one sentence. I am astonished.

But he missed SoI & MoC, surely that's slacking!!!

 

[Bonehead]

Montarloo >>> teh World!

 

[Everz]

Montarloo >>> teh World!

yaaarr the legend :worthy:

 

[Eithor]

Yeah, Monty=love

Arethir, I kinda did answer that. That i probably got half of my thanes rp from grouping, yes with both bad, decent, good and a bit beyond "just" good groups.

But thats beside the point. I'm asking about comparisson of utility, damage, defence and survivability (yes geared towards rvr fg vs fg), not who got the largest fg epeen

You know, the best possible group (or those among the best, say in europe) would probably kill most other groups with a half good/half crappy group setup. And thane melee spec is as said, very viable. So i don't doubt they do a hell of a job. However I see a large chunk of a thanes potential (watever crappy or great that happens to be) is lost.

A fact is that we could argue about this for ages. Only if one would compare the different specs, the gains and losses etc, one could at least get a result out of it, that build on something else then opinions/experience.

Septina, not saying you're wrong here, fotm is what fotm is, but fotm ain't the same as overall best possible (thinking of group, but even solo and duo could be accounted for here) spec, it's what many people THINK is the best, based on yet another peoples opinions (fotm in this case at least, ain't based on facts based on information, such as range, dmg, different tasks that is possible to execute etc).

Try to slap me silly with fg experience (and i'm not a noob on the subject hehe), but until someone prove me wrong (not think or even belive me wrong) my opinions/experience stand.

 

[Eithor]

2 facts:

- And for 150-200 more damage per swing, when a thane is behind it's target(and not being able to do any damage at all if grappled/rooted), by using ragnarok over polar rift.

- Some slightly more WS.
(Thanes ws is crappy, so not much happens by increasing strength and going above 51 effective/composite spec. Also one will hit a soft target about as hard with 1600 ws as with 1790ws, and they have no or little defence, so ws dosen't matter as much there either, and one dont start with running after armsmen etc to try to melee them down, as a thane).

Except for these two facts, what more would make 50sword, 42shield,38sc,10parry (or 50sword,42shield,36/38parry,16/10sc) a preferable spec over 50sc,42shield,34/36/39sword,20/16/6parry for a group?

 

[Septina]

Yeah, Monty=love

Arethir, I kinda did answer that. That i probably got half of my thanes rp from grouping, yes with both bad, decent, good and a bit beyond "just" good groups.

But thats beside the point. I'm asking about comparisson of utility, damage, defence and survivability (yes geared towards rvr fg vs fg), not who got the largest fg epeen

You know, the best possible group (or those among the best, say in europe) would probably kill most other groups with a half good/half crappy group setup. And thane melee spec is as said, very viable. So i don't doubt they do a hell of a job. However I see a large chunk of a thanes potential (watever crappy or great that happens to be) is lost.

A fact is that we could argue about this for ages. Only if one would compare the different specs, the gains and losses etc, one could at least get a result out of it, that build on something else then opinions/experience.

Septina, not saying you're wrong here, fotm is what fotm is, but fotm ain't the same as overall best possible (thinking of group, but even solo and duo could be accounted for here) spec, it's what many people THINK is the best, based on yet another peoples opinions.

Try to slap me silly with fg experience (and i'm not a noob on the subject hehe), but until someone prove me wrong (not think or even belive me wrong) my opinions/experience stand.

The point you seem to totally ignore tho is that THIS thread is about full group experience/speccing.
Noone is questioning your thane knowledge when it comes to soloing or the likes but when it comes to full group experience i think most people will agree that dreami/duact has more experience in that department. There will always be a spec that is 'fotm' and it will be the one most fg oriented people will use.
As i said, sure, there are plenty of viable speccs out there but there will always be one that people use more than the others for fg vs fg situations.

Again, this thread is about thane speccs for a full group vs full group scenario not for soloing.

 

[Arethir]

This was the post I was aiming at. If you read it, it tells you my opinion on why the good stuff you put forward as "thane utility" wouldn't work in fg vs fg action.

I'm asking about comparisson of utility, damage, defence and survivability (yes geared towards rvr fg vs fg)

Eithor, if you ever played a caster in a fg, you would know there is something called interupts. Meaning you won't get off alot of spells.
Now, if you are to bodyguard, you really don't have much of a chance to move out of this interupt range. If you try to cast spells while BG'ing, the target your BG'ing will die.
Thanes don't get grappled alot. Root happens, but so does purge.
Your damage calculations seem really neat though, if only you can get MoC4 and somehow manage to bug the insta spells so they are up every 1-2 sec.
I haven't tried DoomHammer, but it sounds really nice. What is the RUT on it?
And I'm sure they will hit RR11 in Xnys group soon enough. If you'd look it up you see they're already above RR10, one even at 10L8 and closing in.

come on now, rr6-7 is about 1-2 weeks of play with a good group, so a rr8 thane that only played in a "good" group have close to no "real" thane experience

Actually, just the fact that they manage to get that much rps, should show you that they win alot of fights, ie all players of the group must be playing good, and if the kind of RvR they're playing (the "elite" fg vs fg area), which is what this thread is asking about, is not a good enough example of how one should play a thane, I don't know what is.

I'm sure you enjoy the spec you have, but I have doubts you've ever played that spec in an opted fg fighting other fgs and actually making it worth while. Any good enemy group shouldn't have the biggest problem working around a thane who thinks he is a caster. It's more like "lol, why didn't they get a rm/sm instead!". You do have more AF, and you can swap to BG and scratch the tank on the casters, but your dmg is nowhere close to casters, you don't have NS, and you don't have a pet. And don't tell me you can do alot of melee dps with the caster spec, after spending all those rps on MoC4 and i dont know what, the enemy healers should be able to heal up the 200-300 dmg a swing you do on a tank with 2.5k+ hps.


Edit: Keep in mind Eithor, this is the "fg crowd" you're speaking to on this forum. If you want respect and people who speak of how good you play, talk to the "solo crowd" or what it is you usually do ingame. I'm sure there's a reason as to why you're RR11, but it's not the opted fg vs fg groups I'm quite sure.

PS: If you think thane ws (and thereby dps) is shit in melee, you should again, reconsider!

 

[Eithor]

Btw, if possible, try to keep away opinions, epeening and the so-called-funny-remarks

 

[Eithor]

Yes Septima, if i re-write fg rvr and spec now, it will be called spamming, so i just skip that now
And also spam, it's yet again, not the experience of a few but very very skilled fg rvr'ers that i question either. I just simply want "numbers".



Ahh, yeah Arethir, that one is more to my liking, something to work with, this is kinda what i looked after :]
I'll blame me being at work earlier today, missing posts over there.
Back on that matter in a while

 

[Davejohnson]

Grats, you managed to put Sorc, lifetap and ML9 into one sentence. I am astonished.

awh dont be so harsh, really im taking offense :/

and yes, if horner actually manages to mez someone, and that guy purges, does horner even try to qc root for example? nah, he mocs or sends ml9 pet. clearly he knows how to play a sorc, which means he must be skilled =)

 

[Davejohnson]

btw eithor, do you actually know how much end polarrift takes? its almost as much as a fucking slam, add to that the shaman is almost never in endrange of the thane (i guess you know more about this then me tho!) and you have yourself a thane that can do 3 anytimes then he is ooe and cant dps for shit.

( :

 

[raid]

Lots of good info and I'd also go with duact/driimi spec. Just remember that any spec you get from a high rr player in a good grp definitely "works", atleast for their grp, but never stop thinking/experimenting yourself!

I have ended up using a lot of specs which most of the "top players" would laugh at, just a couple of examples:

- zero dmg RAs on zerker (rr11)
- zero aug dex on healer (rr9)
- slam on merc

I found them to be the best for me/the grp I played in, even if majority of players considered them crap.

Respecs are cheap, try what works for you and especially for the groups playstyle. Most of the very best groups got there by trying new specs/setups/whatever instead of just trying to copy someone else

 

[Davejohnson]

- zero aug dex on healer (rr9)

vf and rsh laughs at my aughealer template with 8% castspeed =(

 

[Vodkafairy]

vf and rsh laughs at my aughealer template with 8% castspeed =(

hahhhhhhhhhhahahahah its so shit

 

[Nuxtobatns]

PS: If you think thane ws (and thereby dps) is shit in melee, you should again, reconsider!

Thane ws alone aint that gr8...but it aint totally lacking for that matter either. Yet it should be higher imo...or make thane a true battlepriest with a bit of true healing, and not a viking with healer ws.
I actually got 7ws after dinging hehe.

 

[Eithor]

Ok, lets see now.

In this discussion I try not to point at my high rr thane as a "fact" of it self, or reason to explain why i think my opionions are valid. I try to use the actual facts (such as speed, range, dmg, etc etc), those who remain the same no matter the present fotm spec/template/playstyle .

Davejohnson, i think end pots that fully recover my end bar + secondwind (also give me full end) and end reg from shammy, OR end reg pots. Also my Mp 1-hand end proccing sword helps (got same version of it as a 2-hander as well) and atop on that omni procs (end,hp and pow draining reactive procs).

Shortly, end usage ain't a problem for me, so yeah seems that i might know a bit about it

Septima & Arethir, i had a chat with a guy that know some of the Mythic staff as well as helped out at the internal boards (Mythics that is). He claims that 1500 ws is the EFFECTIVE ws cap for a thane (since on seer ws table).
I'm not sure of this myself, but i know this guy have done LOTS of testing, having Pendragon (Mythic testserver) to test on as well as hard facts given from Mythic staff.
My own tests/experience have shown me that the return of WS for a thane after 1500 ain't much (if nothing/something i can't tell).
The above info has very little to do with each point above 50/51 effective/composite weaponspec when regarding a 2-hander, it's just as for other classes, each point add extra bonus.

About the 1800+ ranged single and 1700+ ae nukes, able to cast each 1.1 sec and 1.5 sec. Yes it's true if interrupted one is interrupted, however blow moc1 and the range, the speed, the radius... Shortly the interrupt/ most of the utility is still there, just the "soso" dmg os what is reduced into about nothing (60-100 dmg for me, on blue pets without resistbuffs).

RUT on DoomHammer is 10 seconds (however it's possible to nuke, use instas, ra's, charges, pots, grapple, bg, guard, block and parry meanwhile).

About "frontloading" thats what i meant, ofc one can't use the different instas more often than the rut at each spell.

A Thane standing back, BG'ing support ain't rooted or grappled all that often no, but a thane unleashing Ragnarok at/among the enemies support tends to get all kinds of cc at him/her more often.

 

[Eithor]

So 50sword for a Thane do about 150-200 more damage per hit, if using ragnarok (and behind target) over the 34sword style polar rift. Thats nice, yes it is nice, but what more?

I mean what more than that dmg justify the loss of castingspeed eqal of pure casters, nukes that outrange other nukes/ae-nukes and while still not good dmg compared to pure casters, at least alot better dmg compared to the yellow SC nukes? AND at times (no not with each nuke) got the ability to outdamage any Midcaster within 1,5 second (thanks to the "frontload" nuke+insta+doomhammer+rr5(when it's up).

Please tell me?

And yes i know the dps (and also often as not, the utility as well) of a thane is alot less then that of a pure caster, but i'm not comparing the thane with a pure caster, i'm comparing Ragnarok vs 50SC and 34-39sword.

 

[duact]

I think you are severely overestimating the value of castable nukes in Fg rvr, they serve no other purpose then interupts and while the extra range is nice you already got more range then most classes with the yellow dd. Even if you tried to nuke down somthing vs a good group you would go OOP before you kill anyhting, not to mention that you usually are so far back that the only thing you can nuke is enemy tanks and then you could just be hitting them insted (since you should stay close to them as you are the bodyguarder).

Also I remember getting a notable boost in damage when going from 411 to 44x strenght on my thane. I don't know if thats related to WS or Strenght, I gave up on trying to figure out such things years ago. Mythic's coding isn't exactly based on logic.

While the frontload of using all damagespells on the same time sure can be nice sometimes ( and I know I have done it myself on quite afew occations ) it is not the optimal usage of the timered dd's (specially rr5 ability wich is a great longrange interupter wich should be used with great care).