Question Hotel rooms...

old.Tohtori

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I think Calaen we've had this discussion before, and i do believe we got to the conclusion that to some marriage is "such a big deal", while to others the commitment doesn't require marriage.

In other words; marriage != the only way to make a commitment.
 

Calaen

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I'm not disagreeing with anything i said first, even if you do say it with some jest.

I would like to ask you too, how does marriage change it?

I've heard it enough times on this thread, yet i'm lacking the why?

you know I am sassing :p

Being married means you have to become more responsible I shall give an example.

If I wasn't married but in a relationship, being unfaithful is easier. What do you lose well you might lose your partner.

Now I am married, I would not be spoiling a relationship I would be breaking my own promise to the woman I want to spend the rest of my life. I would be going against everything that I believe in just for sex with another woman.

Don't think for a second I have not had the thoughts or even considered it a lot when giving the opportunity, however my love for my wife is far stronger than before we are married. You ask why I cant tell you why, just knowing that she wanted to spend the rest of her life with me and knowing I felt the same truly was a special feeling.

So there I hope I have explained myself properly, I know I come across like a dick a lot :p but I am a generally a normal person.
 

old.Tohtori

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Aye, and i know that to some it is the "ultimate relationship", was just disputing Gaffers "you don't know" as the things that are to some in a marriage, can be achieved without it.

And i know you're a dick by choice, not by heart :D

Dick by choice is acceptable :p
 

Calaen

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I think Calaen we've had this discussion before, and i do believe we got to the conclusion that to some marriage is "such a big deal", while to others the commitment doesn't require marriage.

In other words; marriage != the only way to make a commitment.

I believe we have. See above :p
 

mycenae

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I know that marriage to some is not a big deal and I have many freinds and family members who are living together, have kids, have meanigful and lengthy relationships and are not married through choice. Either because they don't feel they need a piece of paper to declare something they already know they have, OR becuase they can't afford it, or one partner wants to and the other doesn't etc etc.

I am one of these people who marriage matters A LOT to. And it makes me wonder, if, as some have said, marriage isn't necessary, you can have all the accoutrements of marriage without actually having the certificate....why does every C of E church insist that anyone they marry has 6 hours worth of discussion with a RELATE counsellor, provided by the church, to discuss exactly how and why marriage can change a relationship.
 

Scouse

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why does every C of E church insist that anyone they marry has 6 hours worth of discussion with a RELATE counsellor, provided by the church, to discuss exactly how and why marriage can change a relationship.

Because, being a piece of shit religious institution, the church itself has absolutely zero helpful advice? ;)
 

mycenae

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You have the discussion with the relate person and the priest who is marrying you. And, I have to say, that the woman who is going to marry us in unlike any other priest I have ever known. Incredibly open minded, veryhelpful and very realistic.
 

Scouse

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Yep, but lets face it, the advice wouldn't be any different to a couple who decided to co-habit, apart from the church wouldn't like it...

Marriage for the "masses" has only been popular for the last couple of hundred years anyway. Before then it was for the rich, really...
 

DaGaffer

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Aye, and i know that to some it is the "ultimate relationship", was just disputing Gaffers "you don't know" as the things that are to some in a marriage, can be achieved without it.

And i know you're a dick by choice, not by heart :D

Dick by choice is acceptable :p

"You don't know" is the only response I can give. You've already dismissed what goes on in people's heads e.g. "I don't really care for imagination when talking about real situations." (your words) This immediately makes any further explanation rather difficult as the difference between marriage and long-term relationship is all about feelings and mental processes. No-one gets married these days because of a financial benefit or whatever, its purely an emotional response, and that's why you can't "get it" unless you've done it, or at least have a desire to do it. This isn't to say everyone who's married feels this way, but the ones who believe in marriage certainly do. Which makes marriage sound like a religious experience rather than a rational response, and it probably is, which is also why its hard to explain what the difference is.
 

old.Tohtori

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"You don't know" is the only response I can give. You've already dismissed what goes on in people's heads e.g. "I don't really care for imagination when talking about real situations." (your words) This immediately makes any further explanation rather difficult as the difference between marriage and long-term relationship is all about feelings and mental processes. No-one gets married these days because of a financial benefit or whatever, its purely an emotional response, and that's why you can't "get it" unless you've done it, or at least have a desire to do it. This isn't to say everyone who's married feels this way, but the ones who believe in marriage certainly do. Which makes marriage sound like a religious experience rather than a rational response, and it probably is, which is also why its hard to explain what the difference is.

You totally took that "i don't really care for imagination" out of context, i answered your query right after.

What i "don't care for", is the overthinking, over-ratialisation, thinking, pondering, wondering if and when that more then sometimes breaks a relationship.

I get why some people want to get married, as said, and to THEM it is a big deal, but to me, it's not, and i can achieve any "merit" marriage has with the person i love.

Also i certainly can "get it", the feeling, even if it is unimaginable(irony? :D) by you. The comfort etc, safety, love, closeness, even without getting married and going "Huh, i feel the same."

If i had told you that i WAS married before, but felt that it doesn't give anything that i couldn't get otherwise, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And here's the thing, don't feel bad, many people don't get; i know myself that well that i don't need to "testrun" marriage to say, i don't need it to feel the same.

FYI, thanks for dropping the insults.
 

nath

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How do you know marriage wouldn't change you unless you've tried it. You can talk to people about things until you're blue in the face, understanding something and experiencing it first hand are two very different things. The fact that you refuse to accept this does show a very naive perspective.
 

old.Tohtori

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How do you know marriage wouldn't change you unless you've tried it. You can talk to people about things until you're blue in the face, understanding something and experiencing it first hand are two very different things. The fact that you refuse to accept this does show a very naive perspective.

Because i know myself?

Call me a cynic, cold, whatnot, but i know that getting married isn't for me because there's no reason to do so.

Only thing that i've come up with as a reason(excluding the finance) would be to make someone else happy, but that would be the wrong woman then :p
 

mycenae

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To be honest, what you gys are banging on about is the difference between empathy and sympathy. If you're being literal, no one can ever say 'I know how you feel' and mean it, because no one can possibly know how anyone else feels - they aren't that person. therefore, to sympathise with someone is a bit of a misonomer. You can empathise with someone, attempt to see things from there perspective and to put yourself in their shoes or to say that an experince you have had is similar to theirs and to understand how you felt in that experience may be similar to how they feel.....but at the end of the day its the best anyone can do.
 

nath

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Because i know myself?

Call me a cynic, cold, whatnot, but i know that getting married isn't for me because there's no reason to do so.

Only thing that i've come up with as a reason(excluding the finance) would be to make someone else happy, but that would be the wrong woman then :p
I know myself very well too, I also feel I understand marriage a bit but that doesn't mean I actually know what it'd be like. I've no intention of ever finding out as I don't feel it'd be for me but I'll still freely admit I've no idea what it's like as I've never been there. It shows remarkable arrogance to suggest you understand something you've never experienced.
 

old.Tohtori

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I know myself very well too, I also feel I understand marriage a bit but that doesn't mean I actually know what it'd be like. I've no intention of ever finding out as I don't feel it'd be for me but I'll still freely admit I've no idea what it's like as I've never been there. It shows remarkable arrogance to suggest you understand something you've never experienced.

Well let's put it like this;

I'm with a woman.
We live together.
We share things.
We plan our vacations together.
We go out together.
We plan kids together.
We argue.
We make up.
We have fun with other couples.
We love eachother dearly.
We have decided and told everyone we know we'll be together forever.

Now how does marriage make this situation different?

Rings?
Forced staying together?
A paper saying "thou shalt not split"?

If someone said "i was shot" and i said "yeah i know how that is", it would be arrogant. Saying i don't need to get married to know it won't give ME anything, isn't.

As another example; i know i don't want to do drugs. I know i can be happy without them. Completely ok in peoples books. I don't want to have sex with men, i wouldn't enjoy it. Again, completely ok with people. The same way, i know i don't want to get married as it wouldn't give me anything i couldn't have otherwise.

The reason married people tell non-married people, especially those who don't even plan on getting married, that it's somethign "you must experience", is because it means so much to them. Them.
 

Calaen

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It can give you something you dont have though, because until you have left that church as a married person your can never know that your partner is 100% committed at the time to spending the rest of your life together.

Thats what marriage is its the ultimate commitment. It means that in good times and bad times you will fight for the right to be with each other. I know this because I have had a bit of a crappy year myself. Endless fights about nothing at all and you know what it would have been the easier option to walk away. But know in my heart that our lives would be lacking without each other in it.
 

old.Tohtori

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It can give you something you dont have though, because until you have left that church as a married person your can never know that your partner is 100% committed at the time to spending the rest of your life together.

And that's why, 50% of marriages end? :p

Is it really this unimaginable to think, that someone could have all that without the ceremony, or is the ceremony really that important?

'cause honestly, marriage wouldn't stop me from leaving if i felt it the right option.

It seems like it's used as a quick-patch even. That's how it sounds to me. "We stayed together 'cause we're married", does not sound like a good idea because if I needed marriage to stay with someone, no thanks.
 

nath

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As another example; i know i don't want to do drugs. I know i can be happy without them. Completely ok in peoples books. I don't want to have sex with men, i wouldn't enjoy it. Again, completely ok with people. The same way, i know i don't want to get married as it wouldn't give me anything i couldn't have otherwise.

But as far as i can tell, no one is saying you SHOULD get married. Take the drugs example, you could read up all you like about the effects of LSD, without taking it you simply don't know what it's like. No ones saying you should do LSD, but if you were to claim you understood the effects of LSD completely that'd be bollocks. It's the same argument with marriage. No one is saying you should get married, just that it changes things and you can't fully appreciate that until you've been there.
 

Scouse

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It can give you something you dont have though, because until you have left that church as a married person your can never know that your partner is 100% committed at the time to spending the rest of your life together.

Much as I hate to agree with Toht on this - that's a load of bollocks and the divorce rate bears this out... It's like 48% or something!

But as far as i can tell, no one is saying you SHOULD get married.

And I disagree with this. There's enormous pressure to get married from most people's parents. And married people like to think they're "special" or something - and try to tell you that you're "missing out", when you're not.

Not really...

Married people say that because they want to believe that their 18 grand wasn't pissed up the wall on something meaningless. Which it was ;)
 

old.Tohtori

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But as far as i can tell, no one is saying you SHOULD get married. Take the drugs example, you could read up all you like about the effects of LSD, without taking it you simply don't know what it's like. No ones saying you should do LSD, but if you were to claim you understood the effects of LSD completely that'd be bollocks. It's the same argument with marriage. No one is saying you should get married, just that it changes things and you can't fully appreciate that until you've been there.

Ah, but there's the glitch.

At first Gaffer used marriage as a viable "up hand" in a conversation. This was false, as i could very well have experienced and know about things discussed so far. To that extent, i don't need to be married/divorced.

The discussion THEN turned to marriage itself, which, i kept very clear TO ME, wouldn't add anything.

I disputed marriage as a viable stepping stone in the discussion, but i did not dispute knowing what marriage is in any other form then, knowing i don't need it.

EDIT: Also doesn't negate the fact that i do know what it would mean to me, or there lack of, if i got married. I can't say how Gaffer felt, or other people feel when they get married, but i can speak for myself.
 

nath

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And so you move the goalposts. The fact is we were discussing the hotel room situation, and Gaff made a point about marriage. You simply refused to accept that marriage affects people, sticking to the point that for YOU it wouldn't. A wholly irrelevant point as we were speaking in general terms. Plus your suggestion that you've never been married not being relevant is clearly rubbish - yes it's possible you'd have the same opinions if you had been married, but you haven't so you don't know. A lifetimes worth of introspection isn't going to change this fact.
 

Calaen

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Much as I hate to agree with Toht on this - that's a load of bollocks and the divorce rate bears this out... It's like 48% or something!

As for Toh's comment staying together just because you are married is wrong also.

Being married does not mean I will be with my wife for the rest of my life. However it does mean that I am willing to use every possible resource to make sure that everything that could have been done has been done.

Scouses comment.

The reason it is so high is because the majority of people getting married probably shouldn't even be together in the first place. They get married to try and fix things that are broke, these same people also have children to try and save the marriage :p

I am only talking from my own perspective, I went into marriage knowing that I wanted it for life, otherwise I would not have bothered. Of the 48% that ends up in divorce I would like to see the percentage of people that really wanted to make it work. I fear it would be about 5%. that would be the interesting figure.
 

Scouse

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I was commenting on your statement that you only "know" that someone wants to be with you for the rest of your life is when you leave the church.... which is tosh.

You never know. You have to trust them :)
 

old.Tohtori

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And so you move the goalposts. The fact is we were discussing the hotel room situation, and Gaff made a point about marriage. You simply refused to accept that marriage affects people, sticking to the point that for YOU it wouldn't. A wholly irrelevant point as we were speaking in general terms. Plus your suggestion that you've never been married not being relevant is clearly rubbish - yes it's possible you'd have the same opinions if you had been married, but you haven't so you don't know. A lifetimes worth of introspection isn't going to change this fact.

You're the one assuming. You assume i don't know it a 100% fat that it wouldn't change me.

I never disputed that marriage doesn't change people, i disputed that it changes ALL people.

There's no moving a goalpost here, just denial that i could actually know what the f*ck i want and how the f*ck things affect me. It's not possible, it's a fact. I've been in a relationship that's one paper away from marriage, and since i'm no church person, it'd be infact one party away from marriage. Calling me a child, "not knowing", arrogant and whatever you think is "fit", because i didn't sign a document, is simply and utterly in the wrong. That's enforcing your views on someone else, much like some zealot religion would.

The irrelevant point, that you so kindly bring forth, was the marriage at all. It had no relevance to the discussion or the points i made. When i asked "what relevance", the attack began.

Calaen; yes, for you, and i was merely talking that for me, it wouldn't be needed to be married to "use every possible resource". That's what people have been trying to deny here.

As i said, give me one thing marriage can give that can't be achieved by other people, without it. There isn't any.

I'm not saying marriage is bad, or that people shouldn't marry, or that it's pointless...i merely disputed the claim that i don't have a say because i'm not married/divorced, and i think that's fair as f*ck.
 

Calaen

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I was commenting on your statement that you only "know" that someone wants to be with you for the rest of your life is when you leave the church.... which is tosh.

You never know. You have to trust them :)

If I didn't trust her I wouldn't even be in a relationship to begin with :p
 

old.user4556

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I've read the posts since mine and I'm really temped to post a cliched Facepalm, but I won't....
 

russell

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I think the people who think "something WILL happen" are the ones with trust/commitment issues :lol:

That is exactly it. Repped.

And btw there is NILL sexual chemistry.
I only made this thread out of curiosity not because secretly it is bothering me. I know 100% there is nada possibilty of any shenanigans.
 

Calaen

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That is exactly it. Repped.

And btw there is NILL sexual chemistry.
I only made this thread out of curiosity not because secretly it is bothering me. I know 100% there is nada possibilty of any shenanigans.

Sorry but in my opinion a man and a woman in the room after drink. There is always a possibility. :D of course either one of could stop any advance from the other but being in the same room after a knock back would be uncomfortable.
 

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