Politics General Election 2017

[Scouse]

I'm not accusing you of marxism. I'm accusing you of the same trick that Living Marxism / Spiked pulled. I.E. My idea of a perfect world is unachievable therefore I'm justified in being a shitlord about everything that everyone else considers might be good.

Sorry - I don't think you're realising* my main point - about the seemingly inexorable move from representative democracy to a system of technocratic government.

If you're willing to overlook that move, management of populations by bankers, rather than by the population managing banks, in return for slightly less shit economic baubles then bully for you.

I'm hardly being a "shitlord about everything everyone else considers good" - I've explicitly said I'm a fence-sitter - not a leaver.

Frankly, if that is your response to a moderate fence sitter who holds liberal values and believes in democracy for and by the people, then no wonder the leave brigade stick their fingers up at you and want out at any cost.

It's "remain at any cost" for you, it seems. Especially when simply pointing out very real issues about governance and freedom results in a round of attack-the-messenger...

*giving due weight to

 

[Wij]

I'm not remain at any cost. I'm remain because it is better for the country than leave. Leaving won't solve the issues that bother you at all and will just leave us at the mercy of stronger powers in the US and China.

I'm not attacking you for sitting on the fence about brexit. I'm saying that you are bringing up a load of stuff that is nothing to do with it and saying "well maybe we should brexit then just to annoy those remainers who aren't listening to me." Total non sequitur.

 

[DaGaffer]

I take some of what you say there but still disagree with it fundamentally.

If we can function as a real democracy then there's a chance that governance of our banks becomes politically-driven rather than government being ruled technocratically (as happened in greece - yes there are structural problems but individual greeks weren't responsible for that - yet the people bear the brunt of ECB-imposed rules. The greek people's democratic voice was clearly overruled in the interest of Greek government creditors by the ECB / IMF.)

How the UK government has acted / will act in the future is immaterial to the central question of democratic vs technocratic control - which has never been sufficiently addressed.


Dunno why @Wij is accusing me of marxism. This is a conversation about democracy and capitalism? I'm totally a fence-sitter too btw - I can see the pluses and minuses of both sides - the remain side having (economically) a lot more plusses than leave. But that question of technocratic control remains - and is the thing that keeps me on the fence.

Saying "it's not important" doesn't wash. In my opinion it's almost the most important thing. Economics isn't the only thing a country should be run on. It's a choice, not an inevitability, to run the model that we do.

If you were scoring leave or remain on "technocrats imposing solutions" from the EU, versus "imposition of non-manifesto laws through regulatory instruments" for the UK, you'd score them the same; it's a distinction without difference in real terms.

The problem with Greece was the "will of the people" was to run out on their creditors but keep the house, all their stuff and still use the same bank. If the Greeks had had the balls to "grexit" they could have defaulted; but they weren't prepared to do that because they knew full well no-one would lend them another Euro until the end of time. And while the Greek people were less culpable than their government, they still have to shoulder a good chunk of the blame; "everybody else was avoiding taxes too" is a rotten defence.

 

[dysfunction]

Doesn't address the central accusation of democracy being subservient Dys.

Remainers never seem to want to address that.

Well most things are not binary right or wrong and we dont live in a perfect world no matter how much you would like it to be.

That doesn't mean you say I'm against changing it. It's just you seem to try and square everything away in a neat little box and yet reality is made of many nuances of states.

As for Greece it needed to be saved from a banking crisis that could have turned out a lot worse. So no I'm not going to complain if the EU stepped in to prevent a disaster turning into something a lot worse.

 

[Scouse]

As for Greece it needed to be saved from a banking crisis that could have turned out a lot worse. So no I'm not going to complain if the EU stepped in to prevent a disaster turning into something a lot worse.

It *is* worse for the greek people. Infant mortality rate has jumped massively, for example.

All to service spreadsheets for made-up money. Greek people would happily have defaulted, their democracy was subverted in favour of the banks.

i.e. That ain't democracy.

 

[Wij]

It *is* worse for the greek people. Infant mortality rate has jumped massively, for example.

All to service spreadsheets for made-up money. Greek people would happily have defaulted, their democracy was subverted in favour of the banks.

i.e. That ain't democracy.

They had the choice to leave the system entirely. They could have defaulted on their loans and said 'fuck your made-up money' but they realised that then trying to rebuild their country by bartering olives and feta would have been a lot harder. Tough choices.

 

[Scouse]

They had the choice to leave the system entirely. They could have defaulted on their loans and said 'fuck your made-up money' but they realised that then trying to rebuild their country by bartering olives and feta would have been a lot harder. Tough choices.

IIRC the greek people voted for that then their government didn't follow through. Because technocracy > democracy.

Turns out you're describing the very problem I'm talking about.

 

[Gwadien]

It *is* worse for the greek people. Infant mortality rate has jumped massively, for example.

All to service spreadsheets for made-up money. Greek people would happily have defaulted, their democracy was subverted in favour of the banks.

i.e. That ain't democracy.

Alexis Tsipras was elected purely on the basis that the EU wouldn't be allowed to fuck over Greece, but Greece fucked theirselves over, the EU were picking up the pieces and wanted things in return.

I think it's admirable that the EU saved them in the first place, it's clear that Greece had the right Government to resist the EU, and have possibly have a Grexit, but I think Tsipras realised that would be far worse than accepting EU conditions.

Judging their recent elections it appears the Greeks are more accepting of EU terms and reality.

Democracy is a flawed concept anyway; most politicians that we elect make many decisions without considering their electorate, yeah sure, some of it is pure corruption, but I do believe in some subjects there's a greater picture that they (and people that educate theirselves on those subjects) can only see, and it's not helpful to have a mass public emotive response to lots of subjects. It's not true democracy, but it's real democracy.

I think disconnecting the link between money and people's welfare is naive.

 

[Scouse]

Jeebus. Where do I begin.

 

[Gwadien]

Jeebus. Where do I begin.

That's the reality of Government.

Ever since the plebs were given the vote, the Government still acted on the interests of the voters who could vote prior to 1948, they compromised by giving us the NHS and a welfare state.

That's the reality.

What you want is a Government that acts in the interests of the people, not the interests of the country. That's uncharted territory.

It's like the Israeli question, it's clear that the vast majority of people want us to criticise Israel more when they do shit stuff, but as a country we don't, probably because if we did it would have an adverse effect on our special relationship with the US. From a 'country' perspective, the special relationship trumps (heh) Israel killing a few muslims.

Reality.

 

[Wij]

IIRC the greek people voted for that then their government didn't follow through. Because technocracy > democracy.

Turns out you're describing the very problem I'm talking about.

The Greek people voted for a government that promised unicorns and then their elected representatives found out that there were no unicorns and explained to the people that this was the lesser of the evils on offer because the people still clearly wanted to remain in the EU. Hard choices were made.

Hard choices might not have been necessary if previous democratically elected representatives had not allowed Greece to get so fucked up.

 

[Scouse]

Hard choices were made.

Nah. Hard choices were dodged and Syrzia accepted austerity until 2060 rather than default and leave - against the will of the people.

[Greek people had] given a clear, strong, indisputable mandate. Greece has turned a page. Greece is leaving behind destructive austerity, fear and authoritarianism. It is leaving behind five years of humiliation and pain.” [the result had] made the Troika history

They should have defaulted. The popular mandate was to demand debt relief (on the made-up-money) or do just that. And now kids are dying early.

Not saying they'd have been financially better off, but the IMF & ECB technocrats wouldn't largely be in control of the world's oldest democracy.



Edit: regardless of the above. My point that there's a very real issue with technocratic rather than democratic rule in the EU (and yes, Gaff, blighty too - but country rather than bloc-problems are easier to solve) is being largely ignored by the UK remain-electorate is a salient one.

 

[Wij]

(on the made-up-money)

Thinks the banking system that has supported the world for decades is made-up bollox.

Thinks wasting gigawatts calculating double-SHA256 values that start with lots of zeros is not bollox.

 

[dysfunction]

Nah. Hard choices were dodged and Syrzia accepted austerity until 2060 rather than default and leave - against the will of the people.



They should have defaulted. The popular mandate was to demand debt relief (on the made-up-money) or do just that. And now kids are dying early.

Not saying they'd have been financially better off, but the IMF & ECB technocrats wouldn't largely be in control of the world's oldest democracy.



Edit: regardless of the above. My point that there's a very real issue with technocratic rather than democratic rule in the EU (and yes, Gaff, blighty too - but country rather than bloc-problems are easier to solve) is being largely ignored by the UK remain-electorate is a salient one.

How is it the EU fault that the Greek government didn't listen to its voters? It was the Greek government not being democratic.

I don't deny there are issues with the EU but better in than out though and easier to reform from within than shouting over a wall.

 

[Ormorof]

The greeks have repeatedly stated that leaving the EU is for nutters

 

[Scouse]

Thinks the banking system that has supported the world for decades is made-up bollox.

Thinks wasting gigawatts calculating double-SHA256 values that start with lots of zeros is not bollox.

It's all bollocks @Wij.

And I work at a bank (though not in the crypto currency division, which is well funded)...

 

[Wij]

What is the fucking point of Labour under Corbyn? Seriously, do they have any reason to exist?


View: https://twitter.com/krishgm/status/1159861707533107201

 

[Job]

Economists...they are very good at working out how the world economy should work.

But are utterly fucking clueless how it actually works ...and thats what the stock exchange us for, it thrives on not knowing and Britains chances outside the EU are just as perilous as being in it.
But we have grabbed a tiny bit of freedom, reeled in the globalists, or at least made them think.
What do you want you country to be?

We know Scouses view..he hates countries, unless they are trendy far away ones.

 

[Scouse]

We know Scouses view..he hates countries, unless they are trendy far away ones.

I hate the idea of country. I like places.

 

[Gwadien]

Economists...they are very good at working out how the world economy should work.

But are utterly fucking clueless how it actually works ...and thats what the stock exchange us for, it thrives on not knowing and Britains chances outside the EU are just as perilous as being in it.
But we have grabbed a tiny bit of freedom, reeled in the globalists, or at least made them think.
What do you want you country to be?

We know Scouses view..he hates countries, unless they are trendy far away ones.

I really fail to understand to see how we're going to be less globalist post Brexit.

Unless you don't want to have any trade deals Ofc.

It is interesting though, the globalism argument is mainly based on America, I'm fairly sure that American based companies have a much larger slice of the pie than EU based companies.

 

[Wij]

View: https://twitter.com/GnasherJew/status/1162966399733706752

 

[Gwadien]

MP Jared O'Mara arrested in fraud probe

wtf is going on lol

 

[Wij]

General Election with Farage / Johnson pact seems to be incoming according to the rumour mill.

 

[Wij]

For fuck's sake

Corbyn 'wants' an election despite Blair warning

 

[Scouse]

For fuck's sake

Corbyn 'wants' an election despite Blair warning

Surely you welcome that? Corbyn election, loses.

Blair having his $0.02 again - saying that people fear a Corbyn government more than no-deal. Might be true. Lets find out eh? Then you at least put the Corbyn question to rest.

Lib Dems aren't getting in anyway @Wij - so it looks like Tories 4 Evah at the moment.

 

[Wij]

Surely you welcome that? Corbyn election, loses.

Blair having his $0.02 again - saying that people fear a Corbyn government more than no-deal. Might be true. Lets find out eh? Then you at least put the Corbyn question to rest.

Lib Dems aren't getting in anyway @Wij - so it looks like Tories 4 Evah at the moment.

Corbyn didn't quit last time he lost an election. I think his entire purpose is to keep the Tories (and now just the hardest-right Tories) in power.

If Johnson and Farage do a pact but Corbyn doesn't have one with the Lib Dems / Greens / SNP then they might as well just not bother with the election. Give Johnson the keys now.

 

[Scouse]

Corbyn didn't quit last time he lost an election

You mean the opportunistic election the last unelected Tory prime minister called in which he reduced her majority to the shitshow we have now?

Tories are probably getting it anyway. If he loses hard, he'll step down. At least that's progress?


Edit: Progress in the context of an illusory system offering bullshit to all, ofc...

 

[Wij]

You mean the opportunistic election the last unelected Tory prime minister called in which he reduced her majority to the shitshow we have now?

Tories are probably getting it anyway. If he loses hard, he'll step down. At least that's progress?


Edit: Progress in the context of an illusory system offering bullshit to all, ofc...

He lost to a woman no one likes proposing a dementia tax

 

[Embattle]

Still won't resolve fuck all.

 

[Job]

Ooh..are we getting another vote?


This has about 0% chance of going smoothly or being accepted by the losers, cue...protests, celebs and hands across the sea