Politics General Election 2017

[BloodOmen]

Basically this

 

[Bodhi]

I'd vote for him over Corbyn.

I'd vote for Corbyn over Johnson any day of the week.

As for that twitter spat, pretty childish.

Not really a Twitter spat, more his communications director handing his notice in, whilst pointing out to the world what a massive arse his ex-boss is.

 

[Gwadien]

Not really a Twitter spat, more his communications director handing his notice in, whilst pointing out to the world what a massive arse his ex-boss is.

Seems like his communications director wanted a bit of attention.

You don't quit a job as a communications director after that, he's talking about future interviews already, as if he's going to get it.

Interestingly, the MP seems to be pro-People's Vote whereas the communications director is a Brexiteer.

I wonder if that had a role in this.

 

[Scouse]

He wasn't wrong in the slightest - women in Nihabs do look like letterboxes? However he also defended their right to wear them, unlike some of our more "enlightened" continental neighbours.

He was mocking religion, something which is entirely healthy, no?

Yep.

He's not an idiot. He's just a privileged slimeball cunt.

 

[Scouse]

Not really a Twitter spat, more his communications director handing his notice in, whilst pointing out to the world what a massive arse his ex-boss is.

"Communications director"...

Jared O'Mara may indeed be a cunt but it's a classless way to leave. And who'd hire him after that?

 

[Gwadien]

"Communications director"...

Jared O'Mara may indeed be a cunt but it's a classless way to leave. And who'd hire him after that?

Brexit campaigners.

They love this sorta stuff.

 

[Yoni]

View: https://youtu.be/qd9yj8iDIL8


Because the UK wanted Trump and you like him

 

[Job]

The country isnt anymore fucked up than it was before 2016.
We just know how divided it is, remainers are the ones screaming fucked up because their policies have made us look pathetic and incapable of seeing anything through.
If they had let us leave, it would be over now, deals sorted out..Farage would have no power, Boris would be forgotten.

What exactly is so bad?

 

[dysfunction]

The country isnt anymore fucked up than it was before 2016.
We just know how divided it is, remainers are the ones screaming fucked up because their policies have made us look pathetic and incapable of seeing anything through.
If they had let us leave, it would be over now, deals sorted out..Farage would have no power, Boris would be forgotten.

What exactly is so bad?

The leaves cant decide how to leave so no you're wrong as always

 

[Job]

Theyre not leavers..they are scared to leave, which makes them remainers.

 

[dysfunction]

Theyre not leavers..they are scared to leave, which makes them remainers.

If that's the case then the Leavers are in the minority and this whole mess has been a complete waste of time.

 

[Job]

No true leavers in government are in the minority...the people wanted to leave, if it was to be decided by the government...why the ref?

 

[Job]

Remainers actually want a dictatorship...they would eventually be content with an EU superstate with no pesky uneducated proles upsetting the program.

 

[dysfunction]

Just the usual rubbish from you again. I can't be bothered replying

 

[caLLous]

 

[Scouse]

Just the usual rubbish from you again. I can't be bothered replying

To be fair though - there is an accurate charge of 'ruling via technocracy' to level at the EU that remainers never seem to want to address.

Look at what they did to Greece, despite Greece's democratic vote. That's primacy of a banking system over primacy of government.

 

[dysfunction]

Well you could argue that Greece joined too soon.

 

[Wij]

To be fair though - there is an accurate charge of 'ruling via technocracy' to level at the EU that remainers never seem to want to address.

Look at what they did to Greece, despite Greece's democratic vote. That's primacy of a banking system over primacy of government.

You could argue that the rules were known before Greece joined and that you can’t vote your debts away.

 

[Job]

They were sold a classic pyramid scheme.
They went from second hands cars to Porsches and Mercs overnight.
This all under the watch of the EU who saw expansion as more important, and they were right because the EU banks...now own Greece.

 

[Scouse]

You could argue that the rules were known before Greece joined and that you can’t vote your debts away.

Sorry, but politics is about what's possible in the interests of social justice, not what fits into a stable system that is immutable above all else.

We're not meant to be subservient to a banking system - including our politics - the banking system is supposed to be subservient to us and it.

We know that the creation of money is a bullshit exercise. Every time a bank makes a loan - they just make that money up out of thin air - then start charging interest (paid back via actual work performed by loanee). It's a useful system if we can manage it. But when it's the other way round - it manages us - we defer our democracies to that system.

Nope. Frankly, that answer isn't good enough. - if there isn't a better answer than that then brexit is worth it at any cost. The alternative is not living in a democracy any more. Not a real democracy - just one that cow-tows to technocracy which we clearly don't have democratic control over.

 

[Wij]

Sorry, but politics is about what's possible in the interests of social justice, not what fits into a stable system that is immutable above all else.

We're not meant to be subservient to a banking system - including our politics - the banking system is supposed to be subservient to us and it.

We know that the creation of money is a bullshit exercise. Every time a bank makes a loan - they just make that money up out of thin air - then start charging interest (paid back via actual work performed by loanee). It's a useful system if we can manage it. But when it's the other way round - it manages us - we defer our democracies to that system.

Nope. Frankly, that answer isn't good enough. - if there isn't a better answer than that then brexit is worth it at any cost. The alternative is not living in a democracy any more. Not a real democracy - just one that cow-tows to technocracy which we clearly don't have democratic control over.

If you want to change the rules of how the EU works then there were elections a few weeks ago. Did you vote?

 

[Scouse]

Nice deflection @Wij. Care to avoid more?

For the record: no candidate made reform of EU technocracy a policy. That's most likely because they're now subservient to it.

Democracy isn't democracy if it has a master.

 

[Wij]

Nice deflection @Wij. Care to avoid more?

For the record: no candidate made reform of EU technocracy a policy. That's most likely because they're now subservient to it.

Democracy isn't democracy if it has a master.

Bullshit. The EU didn't cause the banking system. Banking predates the EU and will still be around if we Brexit. That's the deflection.

Greece joining the Euro was a bad idea. That in no way means it is a good idea for the UK to leave the EU.

 

[Scouse]

Well you could argue that Greece joined too soon.

Doesn't address the central accusation of democracy being subservient Dys.

Remainers never seem to want to address that.

 

[Embattle]

Boris is a prat, being PM isn't likely to change that.

 

[Yoni]

God bless Michael Heseltine - currently being interviewed on BBC - he didn’t vote for a new leader “I can’t vote for someone who will make our country poorer”

 

[DaGaffer]

Doesn't address the central accusation of democracy being subservient Dys.

Remainers never seem to want to address that.

Because its irrelevant to the leave or remain debate. Leaving the EU doesn't give UK citizens more control over the banking system; it was a UK government that used taxpayer money to bail out the banks, and future UK governments will do the same, whether in the EU or not.

In addition, I'd point out that the harsh medicine the ECB meted out on Greece was also applied to Ireland, and we now have the fastest growing economy in Europe and the lowest unemployment rate (and real job creation, not McJobs). Greece's problems go far beyond the banking system or the EU. Yes, they should never have been allowed into the Eurozone in the first place, but they also have to take responsibility for their structural flaws like a completely corrupt and broken tax system and public sector.

 

[Wij]

Because its irrelevant to the leave or remain debate. Leaving the EU doesn't give UK citizens more control over the banking system; it was a UK government that used taxpayer money to bail out the banks, and future UK governments will do the same, whether in the EU or not.

In addition, I'd point out that the harsh medicine the ECB meted out on Greece was also applied to Ireland, and we now have the fastest growing economy in Europe and the lowest unemployment rate (and real job creation, not McJobs). Greece's problems go far beyond the banking system or the EU. Yes, they should never have been allowed into the Eurozone in the first place, but they also have to take responsibility for their structural flaws like a completely corrupt and broken tax system and public sector.

Scouse has moved into the Living Marxism mindset. Unless his version of perfection, that couldn't possibly exist, is enacted then everything is equally bad. Corrupt tax-dodgers aren't any worse than elected politicians who have to make sensible compromises. It's all just as bad. Everything is the fault of 'the system'. Wanton destruction of rule of law and societal norms is fine. When the Trump-loving racists who want to remove all societal safety-nets take over then it isn't any worse than now. In fact it's probably better because at least the racists are honest. Horseshoe theory in action.

 

[Scouse]

Because its irrelevant to the leave or remain debate. Leaving the EU doesn't give UK citizens more control over the banking system; it was a UK government that used taxpayer money to bail out the banks, and future UK governments will do the same, whether in the EU or not.

In addition, I'd point out that the harsh medicine the ECB meted out on Greece was also applied to Ireland, and we now have the fastest growing economy in Europe and the lowest unemployment rate (and real job creation, not McJobs). Greece's problems go far beyond the banking system or the EU. Yes, they should never have been allowed into the Eurozone in the first place, but they also have to take responsibility for their structural flaws like a completely corrupt and broken tax system and public sector.

I take some of what you say there but still disagree with it fundamentally.

If we can function as a real democracy then there's a chance that governance of our banks becomes politically-driven rather than government being ruled technocratically (as happened in greece - yes there are structural problems but individual greeks weren't responsible for that - yet the people bear the brunt of ECB-imposed rules. The greek people's democratic voice was clearly overruled in the interest of Greek government creditors by the ECB / IMF.)

How the UK government has acted / will act in the future is immaterial to the central question of democratic vs technocratic control - which has never been sufficiently addressed.


Dunno why @Wij is accusing me of marxism. This is a conversation about democracy and capitalism? I'm totally a fence-sitter too btw - I can see the pluses and minuses of both sides - the remain side having (economically) a lot more plusses than leave. But that question of technocratic control remains - and is the thing that keeps me on the fence.

Saying "it's not important" doesn't wash. In my opinion it's almost the most important thing. Economics isn't the only thing a country should be run on. It's a choice, not an inevitability, to run the model that we do.

 

[Wij]

I'm not accusing you of marxism. I'm accusing you of the same trick that Living Marxism / Spiked pulled. I.E. My idea of a perfect world is unachievable therefore I'm justified in being a shitlord about everything that everyone else considers might be good.