Rant Fucking unions

[old.Osy]

The government, sorry 'media' would have us believe that the November strike had no impact. Yet already the pension package is far less drastic. Striking is a last resort, and it does have an impact.

How naive of you. You think you've accomplished something? I've got news for you sister, the way it goes down is like this:

Say the government wants to cut the wages in the public sector by 10%. They start off by proposing 20%, scandal ensues, they make it seem like they're haggling for 15%, you strike, they get their 10%, and you walk off happy.

 

[Raven]

...and Bob Crow goes back to his country pad in his Jag.

 

[fettoken]

I am still thinking of unicorns.


Talking about unions. This union at work, a constellation of dimwits not really knowing what they are doing. Scratching their owns backs, but not their mates. YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.

 

[throdgrain]

If you want to earn better money, get a better job. Dont whine about how you're worth more. You're worth whatever the going rate is.

 

[Scouse]

All they need to do now is pave all over [the rest of the country] and start all over again. No bias, but [England outside of London] has been left to degrade for decades.

Fixed

 

[Scouse]

If you want to earn better money, get a better job.

That's ridiculously simplistic.

You train for years to be a nurse on a set of terms and conditions that you have a reasonable amount of flexibility about.

They come and take 1/3rd of your wealth off you. And people say "fuck being a nurse off, get a better job"...

....just like that?

 

[old.user4556]

Workers in both the private and public sector get disillusioned with their pay and sense of getting fucked over by their employer, but you can't just say "get a better job", I find that unempathetic and dismissive.

 

[soze]

Aimed at no one in particular.

Public sector get promised big wages and big pensions. Economy tanks so there is less money. Who do the public sector think should be topping up their wages and pensions when everyone else is taking a kicking as well? What makes the public sector so much better that they should not have to make the same cut backs as everyone else.

In the last 2 years I have lost over £8k a year in overtime money but I still do the same overtime.

 

[Himse]

*Appalling

Agreed, it's what a hangover does to one.

 

[Tom]

Well so far my experience of the Olympic Park is one of utter chaos. I can't go into too much detail because the job is ongoing, but its safe to say that the security setup here, if not modified before the games open, is going to cast a shadow over everyone's experience.

Getting in is like getting past airport security, except you're being checked by minimum-wage immigrants who have obviously received the minimum of training. One of them was unscrewing pens to check inside, I kid you not. Everything is x-rayed, scanned, patted down, sniffed, the whole shebang.

I feel pretty sorry for anyone who's paid money for tickets to come and watch, because it all represents the very worst of British officialdom "stand here, do this, that's not allowed because nobody said it was, etc". It's utterly crazy and I'll be glad to leave. Not to mention the prices too - £2.20 for a bottle of pop. Typical.

Oh and the venue I'm in is showing signs of being very quickly put together. Cracks in the concrete, everywhere, that kind of thing. Scaffolding hidden behind painted wooden walls made to look like structural components, etc.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Anyone that complains about the price of "pop" is clearly older and lamer than James May. Seriously, who the fuck calls it that?

 

[russell]

How naive of you. You think you've accomplished something? I've got news for you sister, the way it goes down is like this:

Say the government wants to cut the wages in the public sector by 10%. They start off by proposing 20%, scandal ensues, they make it seem like they're haggling for 15%, you strike, they get their 10%, and you walk off happy.

I know how it works. Duhhh -however -no strike would have enabled them to take even more Bro

 

[opticle]

What Russell and Scouse said.

The whole point about "You signed up for this" was that I didn't, I signed up for something very different - and then they force through new T&C's which drastically change (handicap) the job, it's future, etc.. I've put years of work and training in, and suddenly what I was working towards has been taken away.

Sure, striking is bad, but how far do you think people should bend ?

I could get a new job, but I'd have to start over and retrain, and it'd be years of my life wasted.

But yeah, in this day and age I feel pretty powerless to do anything but live with it and hope things get better.. Happy ?

 

[georgie]

What Russell and Scouse said.

The whole point about "You signed up for this" was that I didn't, I signed up for something very different - and then they force through new T&C's which drastically change (handicap) the job, it's future, etc.. I've put years of work and training in, and suddenly what I was working towards has been taken away.

Sure, striking is bad, but how far do you think people should bend ?

I could get a new job, but I'd have to start over and retrain, and it'd be years of my life wasted.

But yeah, in this day and age I feel pretty powerless to do anything but live with it and hope things get better.. Happy ?

Out of curiosity, what of the above does not apply to the private sector too?

 

[opticle]

We never said it didn't ? It's not an argument of Public vs. Private sector.. I don't understand how that really got that involved.. How is that relevant?

I think if people are getting shafted and have the opportunity to do something about it, I'd support them, even if I didn't have the same option.. Maybe that's an odd attitude in a modern society where everyone wants to bitch and throw Daily Mail factoids at eachother.

But yeah, I agree, it's shit for you too.. ?

 

[opticle]

Then again, as a person with trained skills that only work in an industry which is confined to the public sector.. Were my field in the private sector, I could get the same job for a different company ? Of which there are often many ?

So it is a bit different.. I think my immediate options are a lot more limited.

I'm sleepy.

I see your point. But I think if people are feeling unhappy enough and united enough to do something about it, they should. Couldn't care less if its public or private sector people.

 

[Chilly]

One of the crucial differences between the public and private sectors is that there are multiple employers for any given trade/profession. Since, in the public sector, there are normally only a couple of employers per sector they have to compete far less for the staff. Remember, modern organisations thrive due to the people they employ, no other reason (bar various ludicrous monopolies). This means we should be very careful of abuse by public sector employers and one of the ways to keep the balance of power right is for unions to form and collectively negotiate, forcing employers to raise their game.

Striking is the strongest possible action a workforce can take and shout not be wielded lightly. It's obviously shit for anyone relying on the service being witheld, especially in the case where that service holds an absolute monopoly (such as TFL), but these employees have no other recourse when the policy makers have it in for them.

 

[Zarjazz]

Striking is the strongest possible action a workforce can take and shout not be wielded lightly. It's obviously shit for anyone relying on the service being withheld, especially in the case where that service holds an absolute monopoly (such as TFL), but these employees have no other recourse when the policy makers have it in for them.

That's essentially the entire problem with Unions a the moment. They were created for a reason and have had a lot of beneficial effects on the working conditions for many people. However while that may be a valid reason why they should still exist for some industries today as workers need that last resort, but you have cunts like Bob Crow and the TFL drivers completely destroying that legacy. "Our mate Jimmy got fired for being drunk and shit at his job." Strike!

 

[Hawkwind]

You train for years to be a nurse on a set of terms and conditions that you have a reasonable amount of flexibility about.

They come and take 1/3rd of your wealth off you. And people say "fuck being a nurse off, get a better job"...

....just like that?

I see your point but at same time expecting to work in the same job/industry for life is somewhat naive in today's environment. The old mentality of my grandfather was a miner, my father was a miner and I'm a miner for life is ridiculous and not an option anymore. If you cannot adapt with the job market then you will ultimately suffer.

Funny that you mention nursing, which if you take the extra courses once qualified you can significantly boost pay. My sister is a specialist nurse and earns 40k a year. Far from great but better than the UK average. She seems to signs up for every course that is applicable. It takes extra effort and she always seems to be studying for something or other but she loves her job.

I agree with others that if you don't like what you do or feel the pay is not enough then look elsewhere. People that change jobs every few years will improve salary and conditions way above someone that stays where they are and takes the odd promotion when it comes up. What I have seen a lot in my working life is that some people are happy coasting in the job they have and that is perfectly OK. Unfortunately, it is usually the same people who always moan about the job they have. We tend to be creatures of comfort so staying put is always easier.

 

[DaGaffer]

I agree with others that if you don't like what you do or feel the pay is not enough then look elsewhere. People that change jobs every few years will improve salary and conditions way above someone that stays where they are and takes the odd promotion when it comes up. What I have seen a lot in my working life is that some people are happy coasting in the job they have and that is perfectly OK. Unfortunately, it is usually the same people who always moan about the job they have. We tend to be creatures of comfort so staying put is always easier.

If you're a desk jockey at the DSS or something, I take your point, and its completely fair to compare their job mobility to private sector workers; but nurses? Paramedics? Firemen? Even policemen and squaddies are in jobs without natural private sector analogs, and more importantly, they cost a fortune for the state to train. Relative to their cost of training, nurses are incredibly poorly paid (certainly compared to doctors for example).

The question now is, do we think as a country its worth investing in nurses training etc. or do we think, "fuck that, let them bugger off to the private sector and we can replace them with immigrants from the Philippines or Zimbabwe and we don't need to worry about their pension provisions"? From a purely accounting perspective, that approach makes a lot of sense, but eventually you lose the ability to train medical staff yourself (because no-one local wants to be nurse anymore) and become reliant on the global market, which will eventually bite you on the arse because those Philippino or Zimbabwean nurses prefer to go to Australia or the US. This is the problem with letting "the market" deal with the public sector, yes you can get short-term efficiencies, but at the expense of losing a strategic skill in the long term. We're already paying the price for that kind of thinking in manufacturing, and we're going down the same road for some parts of the public sector.

 

[Hawkwind]

If you're a desk jockey at the DSS or something, I take your point, and its completely fair to compare their job mobility to private sector workers; but nurses? Paramedics? Firemen? Even policemen and squaddies are in jobs without natural private sector analogs, and more importantly, they cost a fortune for the state to train. Relative to their cost of training, nurses are incredibly poorly paid (certainly compared to doctors for example).

Not sure I agree totally. All those jobs you mention may have specialised skills that are only relevant to that job. However, most employers would recognise the level of dedication and intellect required to do it. There are skills such as organisation, teamwork and customer relations that would cross over to many other job types. Certainly they are not qualified to go for jobs as nuclear physicists but there are many other roles their skills would suit outside the public sector.

The question now is, do we think as a country its worth investing in nurses training etc. or do we think, "fuck that, let them bugger off to the private sector and we can replace them with immigrants from the Philippines or Zimbabwe and we don't need to worry about their pension provisions"? From a purely accounting perspective, that approach makes a lot of sense, but eventually you lose the ability to train medical staff yourself (because no-one local wants to be nurse anymore) and become reliant on the global market, which will eventually bite you on the arse because those Philippino or Zimbabwean nurses prefer to go to Australia or the US. This is the problem with letting "the market" deal with the public sector, yes you can get short-term efficiencies, but at the expense of losing a strategic skill in the long term. We're already paying the price for that kind of thinking in manufacturing, and we're going down the same road for some parts of the public sector.

We should train nurses within the NHS. But how do you keep them once trained? Via contracts similar to pilots where following training they have to do so many years service?? Totally agree with you, taking qualified nurses from 3rd world countries like India does more damage in the long term. My wife was working for a Surrey based company organising mass interviews in Dubai for various NHS units in UK two or three times a year. 99% of the nurses were either Philippino's or Indian and had to take a verbal and written English test. Talking to many of the nurses who applied they were intending to use the UK as a stepping stone to go to the US or Canada. Much easier apparently when they have a UK residence/work VISA.

Personally I would like to see the UK go the same route as Australia regards the whole National Health system. Very contentious, I know. In the long term it's the only way I can see the National Health surviving in any form. To become the safety net for those who can't afford or pay for private health care. I know it's not ideal and I hope we never see a system as bad as the US but it cannot survive in its current state. With each successive government patching up the cracks and not moving forward.

The manufacturing analogy doesn't work for me, I can see your point though . The UK whilst highly productive is very costly for manufacturing. Most of the EU is in the same situation. When there is skilled labour much cheaper global companies will always take advantage of it. Do you honestly think the UK would have been better off now if we had kept the heavy manufacturing base post war? Would those companies still exist and be able to compete within the global market? Too easy to blame Maggie for all this but quite simply it was needed. Our manufacturing base was archaic with weak management crippled by unions. We could not compete with the Far East and other emerging economies.

 

[DaGaffer]

Not sure I agree totally. All those jobs you mention may have specialised skills that are only relevant to that job. However, most employers would recognise the level of dedication and intellect required to do it. There are skills such as organisation, teamwork and customer relations that would cross over to many other job types. Certainly they are not qualified to go for jobs as nuclear physicists but there are many other roles their skills would suit outside the public sector.

If you train to be a firefighter, its a waste of resources if you leave and go and do something else, because the state will need to train another firefighter. Yes, the firefighter can go and do something else not firefighter-related, but are we as a state wasting our effort?

We should train nurses within the NHS. But how do you keep them once trained? Via contracts similar to pilots where following training they have to do so many years service?? Totally agree with you, taking qualified nurses from 3rd world countries like India does more damage in the long term. My wife was working for a Surrey based company organising mass interviews in Dubai for various NHS units in UK two or three times a year. 99% of the nurses were either Philippino's or Indian and had to take a verbal and written English test. Talking to many of the nurses who applied they were intending to use the UK as a stepping stone to go to the US or Canada. Much easier apparently when they have a UK residence/work VISA.

Personally I would like to see the UK go the same route as Australia regards the whole National Health system. Very contentious, I know. In the long term it's the only way I can see the National Health surviving in any form. To become the safety net for those who can't afford or pay for private health care. I know it's not ideal and I hope we never see a system as bad as the US but it cannot survive in its current state. With each successive government patching up the cracks and not moving forward.

It pains me to say it, because that's pretty much the system we have here in Ireland, but I think you're right. I'll tell you now though, you don't appreciate the NHS until you don't have it anymore. And you are completely at the mercy of the insurance companies (the cost of our cover goes up every year, while the level of cover goes down). It'll be a sad day for Britain when the NHS becomes means-tested and semi-private.

The manufacturing analogy doesn't work for me, I can see your point though . The UK whilst highly productive is very costly for manufacturing. Most of the EU is in the same situation. When there is skilled labour much cheaper global companies will always take advantage of it. Do you honestly think the UK would have been better off now if we had kept the heavy manufacturing base post war? Would those companies still exist and be able to compete within the global market? Too easy to blame Maggie for all this but quite simply it was needed. Our manufacturing base was archaic with weak management crippled by unions. We could not compete with the Far East and other emerging economies.

One word, Germany. Even France still maintain a decent manufacturing sector. The trick is adding value, something British manufacturing could never get its head around.

 

[old.user4556]

Germany produce desirable luxury cars for expanding middle classes; the Chinese can't get enough of them.

Maybe we should bring back the Austin Allegro and try to close in on them!

No?

 

[throdgrain]

No.

 

[old.user4556]

Bad memories of the back seat Throd?

What was her name?

 

[Hawkwind]

Finding a gear in those was like stiring custard

 

[throdgrain]

Mmm custard