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FG vs FG fights: Who isn't doing their job?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Korax, Jan 12, 2004.

  1. Korax

    Korax Fledgling Freddie

    When a balanced FG loses a fight. Who is to blame? Bacause someone, clearly isn't doing their job. I'm no excepional group player, but I do notice how many casual players fail to do their job.

    As most of you know, the CC class in a group should always lead the group. This should also be someone who knows where to run, and how to run, and also where to not stop.

    A typical reason to why a group loses a fight is because they stopped in the middle of the road for some reason and gets ganked. Thats why its important to run a way you don't get enemies in from the side, but streight on. As you run in mach 5 you won't be taken from behind.

    Now that the leader of the group gets his enemies streight on, he has a fair chance of mezzing the opposing group. Keep in mind that your view range is 3000, and if you have instatnt mez you should be able to mezz at more or less exactly 1500 range. If you are a sorc (or don't have instant up) you have to be extra concentrated. The moment you see an enemy, /face him, hit QC (in case of instants, like lulls etc) and tap your mez. This HAS to be done very fast to succeed. Be sure to be uner 30 years old (for good reaction) to choose this class (haha, jk)

    I have been in groups where the CC'er mezzes the enemy before the rest of the group even see if they are allies or enemies (and for some before they even notice that they are there). And I have been in groups where the CC'er insist on not leading, and even getting attacked by tanks before they can mez.

    Now, one of the groups are almost bound to be mezzed, and then it's work that needs to be done, and fast. If you are a class that cannot cure mez, my tactic is to wait and see who gets hit, and then hit purge (witch should be a first priority RA for just about everyone). The ones who can cure mez, for heavens sake, do it! Remember to cure key classes first.

    As a healer, you must make sure to be able to cast heal through the entire battle and keep every player in the group at full health. Usually the spread heal is the best to use. Make sure noone is diseased, if they are, cure them and wait for TOA (with group cure disease).
    You will in just about every battle be attacked, and this part is very important to do right. You must find some of the classes in the group that can take this bastard off you. Run (with sprint) to the nearest slam bot or to a pbae class, and expect them to do their work. Do NOT run away from the battle, then you'd almost be better of dead, as you won't be able to heal, and some tanks in your group might start following, and that would stop them from helping the group as well. On top of that you'd have to get back afterwards anyway, and then the group will be dead anyway. The best way to avoid getting hit is to hide behind a tree or a stone - this is very effective :).


    Mages should use the same manuver as healers when getting hit. If you have a stun, be sure to not use it on any determination class as your stun will last about 2 secounds. Slam isn't effected be determination. Also if it's a non det class, I would still recomend to not use stun if you can help it. It will only delay your death by 5-6 secounds (because of resists). Having a slam bot do your work, will stop him for 9 secounds, and then he suddenly have a new problem, he has a tank hitting him and he will probably stop chasing you as you are far away.

    Defensive tanks should always carry around one small shield for slamming and a large one for blocking and guarding. Remember that you have a very nice skill called guard. This ability is very hard to use propperly in RvR as you'r usually to far away from the one you are guarding. A solution to that is switching guard target as you go. This is very difficult though, but if you concentrate, it's doable. The best defensive tank I have seen is the one in "Dem Hibbies" movie (anyone have a link?). The hero there, has a very good overview of the battle at all times, whenever a healer loses HP, he runs to him in a matter of secounds and slams everyone on him and guards him immediatly.

    Offensive tanks should attack the healers\mages first. Make sure you have a determinstion class as MA that can pick the right classes as taget. And most importantly, REMEMBER to use the assist. A god tip to the MA is to make a macro that informs the group that he has changed his taget, and just spam it abit whenever its apropriate.

    A few general tips:

    - When you see a mage with pbae that uses MOC... RUN, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD !
    - When you see a healer use MOC, slam
    - Tell the group of your current status. It's hard to see if you are rooted, mezzed or diseased. In TOA (afaik) this will be fixed with color codes on the names of people in the grp. Eg. orange for mezzed, green for diseased, blue for LD, red for dead etc.
    - When buffing up etc, make sure to find out who is MA and what specs people have.
    - When closing in on a milegate, tell the group to be ready (you have no idea how much this helps).
    - Give pointers to the group, but make sure you don't complain, insead encurrage them.
    - Try to have an overview of any situation. When running, twist your camera around and look in every direction. Don't look away from your front in more then one sek. Also, try to be concentrated about what to do, don't pet your dog.
    - Use your RA's

    I find this to be a very interesting subject, and I belive that people might get abit use of this post. And please if you have ANYTHING to add, or have some corrections and opinions, please post them. If you know everything in this post and manage to actually do it all in RvR, you'r my hero. :wij:

    PS. Savages, pbae, mezz, determination and disease is overpowered :mad: (though this isn't the subject of this thread).

    Have an extreamly nice day. :D
     
  2. Tilda

    Tilda Moderator Moderator

    CC'ers who lead the group die first or get insta'ed.
     
  3. Loxleyhood

    Loxleyhood Fledgling Freddie

    Well....... sometimes your opponant just might be better than you.
     
  4. Azorius

    Azorius Fledgling Freddie

    Quality post chap, one to keep for new peeps, but can you tell me how the hell I can stop our primary CCer from chatting on MSN during runs ?

    Cheers

    Azo
     
  5. cuddled0rf

    cuddled0rf Fledgling Freddie

    think the easiest way to make sure the CC'er isnt chatting on msn would be to exchange him.....besides, i know u got enough chars to play something other than main CC ;) (gimp)
     
  6. Kami

    Kami Can't get enough of FH

    Nice post, longest one I've bothered to read ;)

    Some will/some wont agree with you but it's good anyway!
     
  7. Voltage

    Voltage Fledgling Freddie

    nice post, many good points to think about... one thing I would say tho:

    when an enemy group (usually hibs in this instance, mids are tougher to work out) runs with the bard at the front, I almost always interrupt them with an insta dot (I play a hybrid... I dont wanna be mezzed tbh) whereas when the bard is in the middle of the stick I find it hard to target them and insta quickly enough - if I dont click on the guy with the lute first shot then 99% chance he has casted mez or at least enough of a cast that my insta doesnt interrupt him and we all do the statue thang.

    mid has advantage here having 2 insta CCs and a fairly indiscernable primary CC class (dwarf/norse in chain with shall shield... usually at least 2 in a group) compared to guy in robe and stick doing green kill me please mage animation or guy with kill-me-quick-lute

    but im an alb, im not going to think its fair :)
     
  8. Azorius

    Azorius Fledgling Freddie

    Well if you levelled your D0rf4thewin Healer.........we might not have this problem, now come PL my hunter ffs.

    And if you see me playing a healer as main CC in a group, slap me stupid for leaving my tanking ways.

    On a more serious note - Skalds - in front or behind ? I like to stay at the back to ensure noone loses speed, and roam with the camera - others like to be in front, what's best in the panels view ?

    Cheers

    Azo
     
  9. GReaper

    GReaper Part of the furniture

    Lets see. I've got a level 50 Sorcerer, about 700k realm points.

    Many times I've done a perfect mez on hibs (the entire group), only for them to group purge shortly after. The exact same could apply very easily to mids/albs where a demezzing class purges and is able to demez very quickly, or the det classes become un-CC'able. I'll end up dead very shortly afterwards if theres 4 tanks on me.

    Have I failed to do my job?
     
  10. Korax

    Korax Fledgling Freddie

    If they die, they haven't managed to mezz, so its theyr own fault ;)

    Anyway, if the bard dont have an instant up and gets insta'ed then mezzed the dr00d will just hit the GP4tehwin button and the bard is up free to mez (though he's prolly already killed by a savage train).

    If a sorc gets interupted, he didn't use QC.

    And the healers are most often 2+ with instas all the way, so they shouldn't have a big prob.

    :eek6:
     
  11. Loxleyhood

    Loxleyhood Fledgling Freddie

    Me, Elajt and Meduza once killed a full group of Mids. What Mid gets the blame? :)
     
  12. SilverHood

    SilverHood Part of the furniture

    Biggest problem back when I played, was experienced players not telling newer players what to do, how to do it, and when to do it.
    The amount of times I've been in groups where someone starts slagging someone else off for not doing something they weren't supposed to, is amazing. It ruins other players will to RvR... atleast if they haven't got the self esteem to stand up for themselves.

    Some very nice points there by the way! :)
    Just a note - if you see pbaoe'ers standing on top of each other, especially with healing classes as well, AoE them with anything available. Thanes are excellent for this, since they can take a bit of punishment and usually slam as well... hence, pick Thanes in your Midgard RvR group. ;)
     
  13. liste

    liste Fledgling Freddie

    Someone has no idea what they're talking about i see :p

    as GReaper said, you can land a 110% perfect mezz, and still be dead 5 seconds later, without _anyone_ having a chance to save you.

    ever heard of lul and insta CC? oh, right. because QC is faster than insta.
    if you dont react within a millisecond, the opponent will be within 1500 range, which means you're toast.

    oh well :)
     
  14. Kreig

    Kreig One of Freddy's beloved


    Bards have Instas mezz x2 im pretty sure, so intrupting them with your DoT and Insta DD is useless. More so as some hib groups run with two bards.
     
  15. Kreig

    Kreig One of Freddy's beloved

    Unless its hibs running at mach 6 :) To counter this simply have group members pan cameras in various directions so that u cant be caught unaware ever (Exception - afkers or CC chating on msn).
     
  16. Elendar

    Elendar One of Freddy's beloved

    good post, but
    1. a lot of hib and mid grps will run speed 6
    2. most sorcs don't use qc first as its actually slower than normal mex cast (due to qc actually having a casting speed cap, unlike every other spell)
     
  17. Korax

    Korax Fledgling Freddie

    Without anyone having a chance to save you? If you land your mez, there is obviously not much more you can do, but thats why you aren't running solo. That is why you got 7 other people with you, to do the job you cant. If you die 5 sek after mezzing, the tanks and the healers have failed to do their job. A few slams and good healers can keep you alive.

    I was in a hib group once fighting 4 FG albs. We took out two of them, but we died when the entire group was OOP. And everyone was low RR so no raging power etc.

    And yea, I have heard of lull, thats why I think its a good idea to use QC.
    As for insta mez, that is why you have to be extra quick. If the one with insta is abit too slow, you have a chance at getting mez in.

    If they are demezzed very quickly they have done their job, and your tanks haven't.

    And have you failed to do your job? Read above.
     
  18. Korax

    Korax Fledgling Freddie

    Bards has one AE and one single target insta.
    Hibs don't run with two bards if they can help it. 2x druids, 1x bard and 1x warden does the trick.

    As for mach 6, not many groups do that.
     
  19. Appollo

    Appollo Part of the furniture

    now that was fun :clap:
     
  20. raal

    raal Fledgling Freddie

    From an albion point of view I just have to disagree on some of your points.

    1) A sorc should never lead, he should stay in the back of the group to increase the chance of him being out of mez radius if someone jumps you. This will also give him a few seconds extra to live since the enemy dont spot the cc right away, he is hidden behind the others, and it means they have to run further to get to him.

    2) The thing about never staying in the open field is purly misguided. A sorc has bolt range mez. This means you need a long clear line of sight to take full advantage of it. If you run over hilltops or meet an enemy group running around a corner, the instant CC group got a major advantage. If you stand smack in the middle of the emain bowl however, the sorc has the advantage because of the range.

    Other than that I agree with most of what you say. Way too few shield tanks have guard easily accessible so they can switch it around. This goes for PVE aswell. I used to level a paladin along with two inf friends of mine, the abillity to change guard based on who has aggro saved us more times than I care to count.

    G
     
  21. Korax

    Korax Fledgling Freddie

    The first one I can agree with, but I can't remember saying anything about the secound one there :touch:
     
  22. Azorius

    Azorius Fledgling Freddie

    I've two 50 shield tanks now, it's second nature to swap guard, replace intercept etc. But there are an awful lot of new people levelling warriors who barely know what guard is, I won't even go into Engage :p

    When grouped with a second shield tank, (say in PvE) I almost never see 'You are being guarded by xxx' always have to ask.

    :touch:

    Cheers

    Azo
     
  23. raal

    raal Fledgling Freddie

    Haha you're right. I went back and re-read your post now and you never even said something remotely close to it. Sorry about that, I have no idea how I managed to read what I said into it.

    G
     
  24. Danya

    Danya Fledgling Freddie

    Hill fights are a pain in the arse. :p

    As for the sorc dying and such. Ever tried slamming 3 savages when everyone's been insta mezzed or rooted? It's pretty hard to slam a savage anyway let along when half the tanks can't move.

    And as noted qcing first is stupid. Lull and insta mez will interrupt it anyway, and it;s slower than a normal cast.
     
  25. Animus

    Animus Fledgling Freddie

    Amnesia?
     
  26. Kreig

    Kreig One of Freddy's beloved

    So as i said 2x Insta mezz.

    Its more feasable for hibs to do it with a good bard its just a case of getting RSI from twisting 4 buttons which any pally worth there salt know's about and mids get it easest with perma end regen from grps shammy. Alb has it the worst as unless they have 2 pallys which no decent opted grp normally has, the pally runs out of power after a while.
     
  27. Korax

    Korax Fledgling Freddie

    So what your saying is that Amnesia interupts QC!? :eek7:

    I haven't really played casters much, so I wouldn't know :(

    :rolleyes:
     
  28. Belorfyn

    Belorfyn Fledgling Freddie

    Good points. But then again, each fight is different and everything affects everything (who's mezzed, who purges, who has AE root, can enemy CM or can you CM, etc..)
    Myself, I hardly ever purge mez (unless it's really really really needed), I save it for stun because there's always the stun coming. Especially if I'm gonna use MoC, because using MoC and getting stunned without purge left makes you feel pretty silly :)
    Though it must be noted that we go mostly duo and I'm not at all experienced at rvr'ing with FG. Especially with balanced setup since usually when I'm in FG, it's not :) So we can't do many things FG's can do and have to do things FG don't have to do :)

    In the end, the things that matter are how much experience each players has of rvr generally with their class, and how much experience they have of fight with the people they're fighting now (because eventually people learn to know what others will do in each situation and can play better together).
     
  29. Belorfyn

    Belorfyn Fledgling Freddie

    It doesn't cause interrupt like damage spells, it simply stops you casting the spell you are casting, just like that. No difference in QC or normal cast. But amnesia doesn't cause any interrupts after the casting is stopped so you can atleast start casting new right away.
     
  30. Kreig

    Kreig One of Freddy's beloved

    At the end of the day its encounter range that will swing the fight if u've got two even groups vs each other. Rated from best > worst:-

    Open or Ranged Encounters
    Alb's (Only if sorc is focused and aware then manages to beat the bard(s)insta's)
    Hib's
    Mid's

    Hill's, MG's and other close Encounters
    Mid's
    Hib's
    Alb's

    If you get mezzed 1st its just a question of who has more RA's up imho. From the instant your mezzed some of your support will be dead so no amount of slaming could stop an assist train before that happened especially if they are savages those buggers 360 evade like hell.
     

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