J
Jiggs
Guest
- Thread starter
- #91
so why are you comparing the way a hib group plays with an albion one?
G
gunner440
Guest
- Thread starter
- #92
we are talking about alb herE?
P
Puppetmistress
Guest
- Thread starter
- #93
I was talking about my druid. You where talking about my druid. I was talking about luri hero block > highlander armsman block.
We're talking about 2 things here.
I am sorry but I guess for you its clear that armsman block > paladin block. Perhaps you're right, but I dont understand WHY.
They both can spec 50 shield if they want to. Perhaps armsman has higher DEX but that's only 15 dex more. Shield = 100% dex as far as I understand. Chance to block depends on shield-spec and dexterity and not weaponspec so the only difference I see just from looking at the data is that an armsman has 15 more dex then a paladin.
P
Puppetmistress
Guest
- Thread starter
- #94
AAAARGH do you even read? I said luri hero blocking for me etc etc. and Gunnerr immediatly starts to comment on that:
I reply:
etc etc.. READ THAT FIRST!!!!
And it doesnt matter fuck if its about Hib or Mid or Alb. There's still no explanation other then 'I got lots of RvR experience I think it is so, so it is so'.
J
Jiggs
Guest
- Thread starter
- #95
no its:
~hey lets try this
~hmm this seems to work better than the paladin guard
~ok lets play like this
~farm lots rlms
~hey lets try this
~hmm this seems to work better than the paladin guard
~ok lets play like this
~farm lots rlms
P
Puppetmistress
Guest
- Thread starter
- #96
OK, so purely based on experience. Thanks for prooving the point I tried to made earlier.
J
Jiggs
Guest
- Thread starter
- #97
about 68million realm points worth of experience^^
P
Puppetmistress
Guest
- Thread starter
- #98
Sorry, I fail to see the relation between guild-RP and statements about paladin vs. armsman block-ratio.
Guess my guild didn't break the 50 mln. mark yet so I cannot see it yet.
C
Chuffy
Guest
- Thread starter
- #99
Arms has +500 buffed ws than Pally.
He blocks more.
Next question.
He blocks more.
Next question.
P
Puppetmistress
Guest
- Thread starter
- #100
And where has weaponskill an impact on block-ratio ?
How come a scout has an insane block-skill if he goes 50 shield 50 longbow rest stealth ?
They even made 'the brutalizer scout' and he blocked like a mad-man. Impossible because he has shit weaponskill (because no weaponspec).
How do you explain that? Perhaps WS has no impact on block-chance?
J
Jiggs
Guest
- Thread starter
- #101
we are obviously gimped retards who only beat other groups by sheer luck 
C
Chuffy
Guest
- Thread starter
- #102
It has every impact on block ratio.
You have more WS than your opponent you recieve a bonus to defence...
A 50 shield scout will have relatively poor block against a pure tank. But against other stealthers he gets away with it.
Luri guard bots dont work, if anything get celt.
Same goes for kobolds.
Norse or troll will be better on average.
Nothing in the game will have more ws than a troll warrior hence he will ve granted a bonus over everything more thanmaking up for his low dex...
You have more WS than your opponent you recieve a bonus to defence...
A 50 shield scout will have relatively poor block against a pure tank. But against other stealthers he gets away with it.
Luri guard bots dont work, if anything get celt.
Same goes for kobolds.
Norse or troll will be better on average.
Nothing in the game will have more ws than a troll warrior hence he will ve granted a bonus over everything more thanmaking up for his low dex...
P
Puppetmistress
Guest
- Thread starter
- #103
Originally posted by Jiggs
we are obviously gimped retards who only beat other groups by sheer luck
No by experience you probably beat alot. And you know how to play well..
But that doesn't say you know all there is to know[i/] about the game-mechanics.
P
Puppetmistress
Guest
- Thread starter
- #104
I heard this before but I dont know. But it's easy to test. Let an unbuffed armsman swing at a friar unstyled. Count the evade/parry ratio.
After that let the friar equip mace+shield. Same setup and count again the evade/parry/block(unspecced 5%) ratio. In the first setup the friar has around double weaponskill then 2nd setup so he should evade WAY less (if it has such a noticeable difference 500 WS arms vs. friar then a 50% downfall in WS would surely be noticeable).
Worth a try, I got a friar with 99% staff and 99% shield/mace. Care to try it out someday ? Because if it's true what you're saying this experiment would proove it without a doubt.
I dunno. If what you're saying is right and it affects defence then a scout would evade more with his bow equipped then with S/S if he's 50 LB and lower weapon.
Hmm, a 50 pierce luri hero has 50 STR and 90 DEX at char-creation is 70 avg. on the stats affecting his weaponskill. A Celt would also get 70 avg. on the stats affecting his weaponskill but would have a lower dex (dex is that stat affecting block) so can you explain why this is ?
Not saying I am right here but I would love to hear why it's no good. Celt vs. Luri has same stat avg. if specced correctly but the luri has 20 more DEX affecting block-ratio.
Again guessing. How do you know the increase in weaponskill compensates for more then the lost DEX for being a troll?
P
Puppetmistress
Guest
- Thread starter
- #105
Perhaps better proove would be to give a 50 S/S paladin/armsman a weapon he didnt spec to reduce his weaponskill (so perhaps a crush weapon if he's slash-specced)
and see what happens with his block-rate.
Because Evade is not something you 'spec' for (like block with shield-spec)
and see what happens with his block-rate.
Because Evade is not something you 'spec' for (like block with shield-spec)
S
schinkaar
Guest
- Thread starter
- #106
A sorc singletarget root lasts 14.6 seconds against a det 4 savage, a ae root lasts 10 seconds most savages use purge for slam/root. id give the sorc the same survival rate with or without guardbot against 3x savages, using the paly there is just a waste. But then again every group in emain isnt a savage group, and against a hib group (1-2 chanters +eld) i can understand sorc guard is really important.
H
Hedek
Guest
- Thread starter
- #107
Originally posted by Flimgoblin
I'd say get armsman and paladin with the same dex, same shield skill + bonuses and see how well they block.
(you'll need to fiddle items to get the dex the same)
maybe get qui the same just incase - and strength too
remove as many possible factors.
Then compare exact-same-spec/stats armsman blocking to exact-same-spec/stats paladin blocking.
See if there's a difference.
If not then it'll all be down to +dex/+skill - would be nice to see if there was an underlying bonus to defence for pure tanks as well as offence.
If you really wanted to determine who's better at guarding between an armsman and a paladin the worst thing you could do is having dueling and see who blocks more : the armsman will block more not because he's better at blocking but because the paladin has a lower weapon skill. Provided you could narrow as many parameters as possible you need to have them duel each a same opponent. This third opponent would hit 100 times (missed and parried hits shouldn't count meaning when counting from 1 to 100 you only add 1 hit when the hit lands or is blocked) on the paladin and the armsman, they wouldn't retaliate. And then you can compare. An other testing would require 1 alb caster, 1 arms, 1 paladin and someone to heal the caster and any lvl 50 hib or mid meleer (regardless of spec, class, rr, weapon but a very fast weapon would make the test easier). Same testing as above except that the mid/hib would hit the caster 100 times (don't ask me how the caster manages to survive to 100 hits
) with the paladin guarding him the first time and then the armsman.
B
bracken_woodman
Guest
- Thread starter
- #108
Wouldn't this be a reason to go with a 2H paladin? If you've found that using the paladin primarily on offense works best then why not have an offensively specced paladin? This isn't at all related to the infamous 2H pally thread - it's a genuine question. The "traditional" tank group has been to have s/s pally on guard with 3 offensive tanks - you've obviously found something that has worked for you, but I think it's useful to consider further tweaks. The only other question I would have about using the paladin up front would be regarding the mezz - purge aside (being once every 30 minutes), isn't having a non determination tank up front asking for them to spend most battles mezzed for the full duration?
I do take issue with your comment about armsmen having 50 shield or no shield at all, and that armsmen with 42 shield are gimped. 50 > 42 = a 4% better chance of blocking. This hardly makes the 42 shield armsman gimped - it just means they have a slightly lower base chance of blocking before other factors are applied. Calling specs gimped over a relatively small difference isn't helpful - frankly it's juvenile, leads to spec snobbery and forgets that there are plenty of other factors which will affect an armsman's ability to block (MoB, good dex buffs and having an mp shield being amongst them).
G
gunner440
Guest
- Thread starter
- #109
the "extra" damage done by a 2h paladin isnt good enough to compensate for the utility lost in the shield. Remember the 2h paladin cant do the "red carpet" job i mentioned earlier and in the case of 2h paladins in this situation id rather put in another heavy tank and spent 10g on potions.
this is a very serious issue in rvr as a paladin (and reaver too i guess) but playing a bit more defensively helps as in sticking the person stuck to the MA during the initial charge as radius affects mezz duration and the further you are away from the centre (ma) the better. if in case you do get mezzed you have to let the minstrel/sorc if free know of this and scream for a demezz - dont be shy. in the more extreme situation where both of them are mezzed then this is when purge should come into play...
as paladin i feel purging mezz is a much better option than purging slam or root (remember root doesnt remove end chant) while as off tank i never purge mezzes, only slams
i myself was 42 shield for a while in my early days and i have enough experience to say it is gimped.... basically a paladin with no chants but a higher damage output which has the pure tank benefits.....
believe me i _WAS_ 42 shield before and im certain in when i say its gimped... its like going to a cinema, paying for a ticket just to be able to buy from the snack bar and then leaving without watching a film, its like you're not getting what you came for.
and yes the extra 8 does make a difference in the long run.
im still young so i dont mind being called juvenile
well i think i can say i can provide a decent opinion.. having played my class for years and reaching no.1 in the armsman world rankings ive seen the changes in the daoc game from the caster domination era up til now.. and each patch strategies have to be revisited. i base my opinions more on personal experiences rather than whats written on paper by someone who never played the class....
well this is something that will never cease to exist as noone has perfect cooperation with anyone there will always be the case x vs case y and each will have their opinion on how and what to do.
x will hate y and y will hate x ... forever.
just leave it at that
B
bracken_woodman
Guest
- Thread starter
- #110
Thanks for sensible replies...makes a nice change on here. Your comments on paladins made sense. As for the armsmen bit, of course I respect your rvr experience. But I still believe that the 42 shield spec armsman (which I was up until reaching rr6) , with the rights RAs and equipment is far from gimped when played right. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like seeing classes call gimped without very good reason (and I dont think a base 4% chance of blocking is that). When a high rr player labels a class gimped it can affect how others see it, and thus can affect their chances of getting groups and their enjoyment of the game. I just believe more care should be used in using the term. Guess that's just personal opinion though.
P
Puppetmistress
Guest
- Thread starter
- #111
The 'extra' damage you do compared to a 42 shield hybrid armsman is good enough to compensate for the utility lost in the shield?
Isn't it that the only thing you gain above Bracken abit extra damage? Which isn't enough on a paladin but more then enough to call Bracken his hybrid-spec gimped?
Also dont forget an armsman is a much better guard then a paladin according to you so you loose as armsman ALOT more then the paladin does in dropping his shield.
If you combine all your statements they simply dont add up Gunnerr.. Hey if you're happy with your spec... GREAT! If Bracken is happy with his spec.... GREAT!
But calling his spec gimped where you state that a paladin looses so much shield-utility he cannot compensate for that when going 2H is silly if you do the same and on the same time you also claim an armsman his shield-utility is better then a paladin his shield-utility (because of better guard).
W
-Wedge-
Guest
- Thread starter
- #112
Feck, we only have 47m rps...
If you are putting a 42-shield paladin against a 50-shield armsman, ofc the 50 shield armsman will win... I mean DUH... Put a 50-shield paladin against a 50-shield armsman and I'm really not so sure who blocks more... The arms probably will just a bit, but I doubt its a whole lot... (simply because of the marginal increase in dex)
I've been guarded (as wizard) a lot of times by our Guard-Slave Elling... 50 shield paladin... And I must say I dont notice a lot of difference in block rate between him and an arms... He's the best guard-bot/slam-bot I've played with though... Knows when he can run off and when he should stay near... Thats just a tad more important, knowing how to play...
G
gunner440
Guest
- Thread starter
- #113
hybrids wont max damage believe it or not but they do have the ability to slam...... i used to be hybrid as well and usually half the fight u spend deciding whether to go pure offence or pure defence
and u take this situation multiply it by 1000 and u see u only either defend or attack about 50% of the time meaning the other side of ur spec is left untouched...
a bit extra?
hybrids arent necessarily gimped in the sense of other types of chars but they lose out a lot on one of the main things lacking in alb - dmg dealing. in this area if u dont do ur dmg to the max it cant really be regarded as real "offence". e.g. pole tank, 2h tank, hybrid, pala - 2 pure offence, 1 defence and 1 in between.
and no, paladin switching to 2h will give a LOT LESS dmg than a hybrid armsman purely on the weaponskill even though the stats+spec may be the same.
yes but as armsman and thru past experience as s/s, hybrid and now full 2h, i feel that too many armsmen out there are trying to be like heros/warriors who _CAN_ do a hybrid spec without losing out much. the albion design and thedouble speccing just simply doesnt allow hybrid specs to be viable without giving up some defence/offence.
also remember a paladin isnt a paladin because of his dmg, they are paladins because of the -------> CHANTS <------ and while receiving the same points as armsmen 2xlvl they cannot afford to keep their spec(s) at 50 without losing too much utility wise.
if you're too busy trolling forums and reading "guides" on how to play xxx its not my fault if u take those opinions over other people who have real first hand experience. youcannot and i repeat CANNOT create a guideline to play ANY class. there are no fixed rules - each fight is different. it involves playing the class and thinking of ur moves etc while in combat
my statements are the equivalent of a simple 1+1=2 and if you insist on getting 3 as ur answer then so be it.
silly? lol.
a 2h paladin unbuffed weaponskill of about 900-1000 depending on race... buffed they will have 1400ish and u tell me this will increase the damage by a significant amount?
e.g. a 2h paladin with a 600 dmg cap on a grey mob, sure a 600 damage cap but vs enemy opponents who are buffed to the nuts he'd do 200-250ish ¬¬ and thats it. while with shield they have guard slam etc which is much better than the extra 100dmg provided by 2h.... also to be a 2h paladin you have to drop chants by quite a bit which defies the point of being a paladin in the 1st place. and NO 29 slash 50 2h whatever is NOT viable, if hybrid armsmen lose a lot of dmg with the standard 50 39 spec imagine with a paladin who is on an inferior damage table and almost twice the difference in weapon spec and damage spec.......
armsmen have less things to spend points on making it easier to be able to dump more points into certain skills e.g. 50 slash 50 shield 28 parry while a paladin taking 1 nevermind 2 skills to 50 will render him almost useless.
as you've obviously played an armsman before
why dont u go to rvr with urs and tell me ur findings etc. im curious..
G
gunner440
Guest
- Thread starter
- #114
Originally posted by bracken_woodman
Thanks for sensible replies...makes a nice change on here. Your comments on paladins made sense. As for the armsmen bit, of course I respect your rvr experience. But I still believe that the 42 shield spec armsman (which I was up until reaching rr6) , with the rights RAs and equipment is far from gimped when played right. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like seeing classes call gimped without very good reason (and I dont think a base 4% chance of blocking is that). When a high rr player labels a class gimped it can affect how others see it, and thus can affect their chances of getting groups and their enjoyment of the game. I just believe more care should be used in using the term. Guess that's just personal opinion though.
its not exactly gimped but taking 50 slash 42 shield and dumping rest into parry instead of 50 slash 50 shield which is higher utility as it affects peeps in the groups too and 28ish parry is like taking a whopper junior over a big king @ thesame price, i.e. why have less when u can have more - which brings me back to the maximising ur features as an armsman.
i myself admit that if i saw the stuff on paper (calculations 42 vs 50 shield) it would feel as if its not much difference but after seeing rvr performance u end up taking the piece of paper and burning it. experience > calculations imo .. u can make mistakes in calculations but experience is something no one can change.
and as for affecting the views on other people i dont really understand that clearly, cos in the end its their char and theys pec however they want to spec but if some groups dont want to group them due to it, they have no1 to blame but themselves.
i also cant stand the people who post on forums or pm in game
xxx sends "lo m8 whats the best armsman spec?"
i tend to ignore those as i feel it would be better for them to lvl their own way and realise for themselves which spec is better...
for the casual gamer who logs on in the evening to do pve raids followed up by the odd rounds in emain to end the night then he could say hybrid would be best for him s/s vs mobs and pole/2h vs hibs and mids. but the case i was referring to was high end rvr where spec+ras+players define the difference between a win and a loss, in the serious guilds im pretty sure that unless u meet requirements, u wont get a group. but once again there are other factors ;x e.g. i know some hybrids who play better than pure def/off tanks and i rather have them in group than the person with the other spec. samewith any class.