Fed's guide to Albion RvR

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by Jiggs
50 shield!

no paladin can guard u as well as a 50shield arms: more shield spec, *alot* more weaponskill and determination 5

But the paladin can use his Unique RA to heal you if you're too badly damaged.

Which is great too!

 

[gunner440]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress
But the paladin can use his Unique RA to heal you if you're too badly damaged.

Which is great too!

with pure tank guard u wont need fh =)

 

[-Wedge-]

Weaponskill != Defensive skill... (!= means not equal)

Weaponskill is not a factor when blocking, its the unseen defensive skill... Also when slaming with your shield, your 'shield weaponskill' is used and not your main hand weaponskill...

The amount that you block is affected by your dex... And the difference of dex between a paladin and an armsman is very small...

Check out :
http://www.camelotherald.com/more/453.shtml

Anyways, a 50-shield paladin (yes they exist) can block just as much as a 50-shield armsman...

I've also seen another explanation in a grab-of-the-bag somewhere else, but cant find it atm...

Having a 50-shield armsman guard you means 1 offensive tank less in the battlefield... And in the current state of dark age of tankalot, you cant expect your casters to kill for you...

 

[Flimgoblin]

since we can't measure defensive skill easily - I've yet to see anything that proves a paladin and armsman have the same defensive skill grwoth...


might be a pure tank gets more shield defence than a hybrid.... something to test

 

[gunner440]

ive been guarded by both and i can be 100% confident in saying armsman guard > paladin guard


dunno bout the calculations but weaponskill plays a huge part.

e.g. i duelled falcor and he blocked me like once? and he has 42+rr+shield skill (damn hybrid )

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by gunner440
s/s arms > paladin by a mile defensively

no shit...that's why I said overall utility is higher in a paladin. I was specced s/s arms for over a year, so I know their strengths, but I also know a s/s paladin adds more overall to group.

 

[gunner440]

Originally posted by bracken_woodman
no shit...that's why I said overall utility is higher in a paladin. I was specced s/s arms for over a year, so I know their strengths, but I also know a s/s paladin adds more overall to group.

ye paladins have more utility but nowadays in the so called tank groups its wiser to have the paladins with the main tanks and leave the shield tank as guard/backup offense

 

[Jiggs]

Originally posted by -Wedge-
Weaponskill != Defensive skill... (!= means not equal)

Weaponskill is not a factor when blocking, its the unseen defensive skill... Also when slaming with your shield, your 'shield weaponskill' is used and not your main hand weaponskill...

The amount that you block is affected by your dex... And the difference of dex between a paladin and an armsman is very small...

Check out :
http://www.camelotherald.com/more/453.shtml

Anyways, a 50-shield paladin (yes they exist) can block just as much as a 50-shield armsman...

I've also seen another explanation in a grab-of-the-bag somewhere else, but cant find it atm...

Having a 50-shield armsman guard you means 1 offensive tank less in the battlefield... And in the current state of dark age of tankalot, you cant expect your casters to kill for you...

i hear that, but tbh in my experience its wrong, 50shield arms just *do* block/guard better, whatever the reason.

 

[-Wedge-]

Dont forget that most Paladins are 42 shield and not 50 shield... And ofc you will hit the Paladin more then the Paladin will hit you...

But I'd like to see tests where the same person attacks a paladin with for example 42 + 11 + rr shield, and then does the same to an armsman 42 + 11 + rr shield... And see who the attacker hits the most over a course of 5 minutes, unstyled... So same RR tank (Pala/Arms), both capped dex, both using same shield size + quality... Why 42 shield, those pala's are easier to find

But weaponskill (of your main hand) has nothing to do with the amount that you block... It does play a part in how often you can hit a shield tank though... But thats not an issue with a guard tank...

Anyways, I personally think its a bit silly for an arms to stay back, because he does more damage then the paladin...

 

[gunner440]

Originally posted by -Wedge-
Anyways, I personally think its a bit silly for an arms to stay back, because he does more damage then the paladin...

with 2 good main tanks + paladin support you can drop targets in 3-4hits meaning easy victory in most cases.

and paladin needs to be with or close to main offense cos without end a tank group isnt a tank group + remember the end regen range is shit

 

[Flimgoblin]

I'd say get armsman and paladin with the same dex, same shield skill + bonuses and see how well they block.

(you'll need to fiddle items to get the dex the same)

maybe get qui the same just incase - and strength too

remove as many possible factors.

Then compare exact-same-spec/stats armsman blocking to exact-same-spec/stats paladin blocking.

See if there's a difference.

If not then it'll all be down to +dex/+skill - would be nice to see if there was an underlying bonus to defence for pure tanks as well as offence.

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by gunner440
with pure tank guard u wont need fh =)

Hehe. You wish. A 50 shield luri hero makes my druid go wild but he still gets hits and still needs insta-heals to keep me up.

And a luri hero 50 shield >>>> highlander arms 50 shield.

And I doubt weaponskill matters if you're guarding for someone.

 

[gunner440]

u have a perma shield guard and u manage to die with instas?

does he stick u and go afk?

or do u go emain just u and him?

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by gunner440
u have a perma shield guard and u manage to die with instas?

does he stick u and go afk?

or do u go emain just u and him?

No just 3 savages assisting on me.

 

[gunner440]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress
No just 3 savages assisting on me.

pryd mid are a joke tho, dunno how u die to them unless its one of the few high rr grps..

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by gunner440
pryd mid are a joke tho, dunno how u die to them unless its one of the few high rr grps..

Like it fucking matters on what server a savage plays. DW > guard.

 

[gunner440]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress
Like it fucking matters on what server a savage plays. DW > guard.

u go into a fight and u recognise a weakness of ur grp is that dw>guard and u dont do anything about it? ^^


or do u go with the mentality "ah a savage grp we lose anyway"?

 

[Gordonax]

Re: Re: About necros...

Originally posted by gunner440
not that it's a crap/gimp class but its just to bugged to use in high-end rvr where u dont have control over the surroundings.

You hit the nail on the head. It's not that necro's don't have anything to contribute - that AF debuff is excellent in a tank-heavy group - but the pet is so bugged at the moment that necro's are just too unreliable. When the bugs are sorted out, they'll be a much more viable RvR character.

 

[Gordonax]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress
Which is why CURE MEZZ is an important spell. But VERY few players of classes who have access to it use it properly.

How do you use cure mezz properly?

Not a flame - a genuine question. My mincer has cure mezz and I usually find that, if my whole group is mezzed, it's of limited use. I purge, start curing mezz, and after at most the second person cured the enemy has realised what I'm doing and is busy either stunning me or tearing various unpleasant new holes in me. Are there more effective strategies that I'm missing?

 

[cleeve]

Originally posted by gunner440
ye paladins have more utility but nowadays in the so called tank groups its wiser to have the paladins with the main tanks and leave the shield tank as guard/backup offense

I realise I am about to reopen a can of worms here, but for the interests of discussion - IF you place a S/S armsman on defence, and lob ur pally up front with the damage dealers - isn't it better for pally to be offensive rather than defensive spec ? Or would you want the S/S pally for guard and block/end bot purposes more than damage?

I think its interesting to see different group formation tactics and the changing roles of pallys in groups atm.

C

 

[gunner440]

Originally posted by cleeve
I realise I am about to reopen a can of worms here, but for the interests of discussion - IF you place a S/S armsman on defence, and lob ur pally up front with the damage dealers - isn't it better for pally to be offensive rather than defensive spec ? Or would you want the S/S pally for guard and block/end bot purposes more than damage?

C

once again as u said, the paladins real "damage" doesnt come from their swords, but from their abilities which help the group.

if an off pala moves with the main tanks they act as a kind of red carpet to the main tanks.

e.g. main tanks on a rm who has a guard bot. --> the palas job in this case to get rid of the guard bot (slam) providing the main tanks with 9sec of free time to kill the rm.
guarding the main tanks also helps as a lot of times being an off tank myself im prime target to being slammed and guard helps vs slam especially since slam has no +to hit and fails a lot.

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by Gordonax
How do you use cure mezz properly?

Not a flame - a genuine question. My mincer has cure mezz and I usually find that, if my whole group is mezzed, it's of limited use. I purge, start curing mezz, and after at most the second person cured the enemy has realised what I'm doing and is busy either stunning me or tearing various unpleasant new holes in me. Are there more effective strategies that I'm missing?

Well.. You need to cure those members who can change the tide more quickly. I had bards healing my groupmembers because I (druid) was mezzed. That's silly. Demezz me and I take over the healing. Basic strategy but 'they' often forget that

For Albion goes the same. If you wanna cure mezz on someone first check the sorc. He either can help you with cure mezz AND can mezz the enemy. Is your cleric mezzed, cure him if the group is taking heavy damage.

No point in curing 1 for 1, there's no time for that mostly. But curing a mezz for a very vital character = important. If your paladin is mezzed and your tanks start to complain about endurance cure the mezz on the paladin etc. etc.

It really depends on the situation who needs that cure mezz spell. Just going on top of the groupwindow and spreading cure mezz = no good

 

[gunner440]

purge -> moc + cure mezz ----> mezz owns when ur jumped ;D

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by gunner440
u go into a fight and u recognise a weakness of ur grp is that dw>guard and u dont do anything about it? ^^


or do u go with the mentality "ah a savage grp we lose anyway"?

Consider for a moment you keep asking questions and know it better but you dont give:

a) Proof that paladin guard is worse then armsman guard
b) A solution to the problem that DW > guard

I dont pretend to be all knowing but the only solution I see to dont stop me healing is me using MOC on my druid. Which is what I bought and it works quite good.

Now back to the original question. Where do you base your statement on that a S/S arms > S/S paladin if you include the fact that a paladin can give the person he's guarding a 2nd life with FH.

Also consider that you loose offensive damage if you switch tasks (paladin switched with armsman)

Only bonus I see is that:

a) Armsman is not mezzed for the full duration.

Also it's funny to compare your current statements with the statements said about paladins guarding in the thread about 2h paladins

 

[gunner440]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress
a) Proof that paladin guard is worse then armsman guard

after 1+ year playing and lot of months in rvr with both shield tanks and paladins anyone would come to the conclusion that shield armsman > shield pala in blockrate.

b) A solution to the problem that DW > guard

slap ur lazy bitch ass sorc. he lands mezz and fcks off asap

i seen lot of sorcs who mezz then stand in the same place for more than 3 sec nuking.

there is no way to make guard be better than DW and the easiest way to prevent them from exploiting this weakness is not to let them near the support.

remember sorc has root too so if it gets ugly a slam + root should hold a savage for 30 sec or so after det? and in this time your own main tanks should be finished with their job and picking on the savages.

Also consider that you loose offensive damage if you switch tasks (paladin switched with armsman)

u dont.
with 3 off tanks instead of 2 + pala u come across problems like guard etc and warriors are the ultimate guardbots.
i.e. with pala = less dmg output but easier to kill
without pala = more dmg output but harder to kill

which kinda eliminate each other

Also it's funny to compare your current statements with the statements said about paladins guarding in the thread about 2h paladins

the only solution I see to dont stop me healing is me using MOC on my druid. Which is what I bought and it works quite good.

lemme guess ur one of the droods who uses moc before slam? :\

 

[Flimgoblin]

people used to think spirit resist stopped all mezzes

I believe you that a 50 shield armsman with higher dex guards better than a paladin with 42 shield - be nice to see how different it is - and whether class plays any effect or if it's just spec and stats.

 

[Jiggs]

its just experience puppet.

if we (BF) didnt win with these techniques, do you think we would use them or spec or characters this way?

alot ppl see these 3merc thing or offensive 2hd/pole arms and think they suddenly know how an alb RvR group works, but the way you play has to be goverened by the problems you face.

or to put it another way:

THERE IS NO SPOON!!

 

[Chuffy]

Don't argue with gun, he knows more than you.

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by gunner440
after 1+ year playing and lot of months in rvr with both shield tanks and paladins anyone would come to the conclusion that shield armsman > shield pala in blockrate.

And once again where is it based on? Common experience? Numbers? Data? ' Because you play like that and it works better' ?

slap ur lazy bitch ass sorc. he lands mezz and fcks off asap

Ehmm.. Druid = Hibernia =! sorc. We got a bard who has 1 form of CC = mezz. After that you have to rely on root up on the other druid (druids have complimentary spec, my spec doesnt have AoE-root)

i seen lot of sorcs who mezz then stand in the same place for more than 3 sec nuking.

I don't. We kill the sorc almost immediatly when we face an Albion group. To avoid any huge CC on us.

there is no way to make guard be better than DW and the easiest way to prevent them from exploiting this weakness is not to let them near the support.

Which is so easy :/

remember sorc has root too so if it gets ugly a slam + root should hold a savage for 30 sec or so after det? and in this time your own main tanks should be finished with their job and picking on the savages.

That depends on the spec of the sorc, if he has the AoE root off body level 30 specline (delve 49 sec), count in AoE-falloff and determination + 50% body resists + 9 sec slam I would say less then 20 seconds.

Also druid = Hibernia, still no sorc.

lemme guess ur one of the droods who uses moc before slam? :\

You keep guessing mate. It has happened ONCE that I got slammed during MOC and that was pure luck that the fight lasted so long. I decided to pop MOC and I was AoE-stunned in the beginning of the fight (against Mids). I gambled and I lost, I guess I just lost stun-immunity just before slam landed.

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by Chuffy
Don't argue with gun, he knows more than you.

Things like this are often the base where false statements grow in: "Do not argue with XXXX, because he knows more then you".

If humans kept on to that advice we would lack ALOT of knowledge about for instance physics where it wasn't allowed to think differently for a great time.