News Englands a third world country?

[nath]

And if they only practice 50% of how the Church tells them to conduct themselves in their sexual relationships you don't think that is very much down to themselves and not their Church?

Again, that's completely irrelevant given the following:

People are having pre-marital unprotected sex.

It's likely that the reason they're having pre-marital sex is human nature. This isn't going to change.

It's likely that the reason they're having unprotected sex is because they're told that condoms are not allowed in their religion.


One of these things is easily resolved, the other, not so much.

Frankly I am really surprised that you're on the Catholic side here Turamber, I know you're a very religious person but I thought you were more of the "Religion is between a person and God" and not so much for the institutions and their bullshit.

 

[Scouse]

Did you not read his post where he refused blood because of his religious beliefs and actually thought the doctors really admired him for his "principled stance"?

 

[nath]

Did you not read his post where he refused blood because of his religious beliefs and actually thought the doctors really admired him for his "principled stance"?

I have my opinions on that but that's not really relevant to this discussion mate .

 

[old.user4556]

lol at:

"So yes, in that sense Britain is like a third world country, the key difference being that thousands of people aren't dying of AIDS every day because some mad old fucker in a pointy hat told them that johnny bags are made by Lucifer."

 

[Embattle]

I'm in no way a fan of the pope and his organisation (RCC) but I think while a lot of people object to its views I tend to think it really does annoy many that the tax payer is going to foot the bill.

 

[rynnor]

The problem is the Pope is a head of state and was invited by our head of state. We have to foot the bill.

I know he is head of a bullshit state but that's the way it is.

Heh - a state created by Mussolini while he was in power - no wonder the Catholic church never condemned Hitler - they knew what side their bread was buttered on...

 

[Mabs]

Heh - a state created by Mussolini while he was in power - no wonder the Catholic church never condemned Hitler - they knew what side their bread was buttered on...

yes
the papal state was started in the 1930s....

 

[rynnor]

yes
the papal state was started in the 1930s....

Read the history...

 

[Mabs]

Read the history...

im talking about the power base , not the collection of buildings

 

[rynnor]

im talking about the power base , not the collection of buildings

There were no Papal states after the unification of Italy - they only got the vatican city state in exchange for helping cement the fascist government of Mussolini in power.

 

[Turamber]

People are having pre-marital unprotected sex.

It's likely that the reason they're having pre-marital sex is human nature. This isn't going to change.

It's likely that the reason they're having unprotected sex is because they're told that condoms are not allowed in their religion.

Where do people become responsible for their own actions, inactions or beliefs? You reduce people to mere automatons for the sake of your argument and wishing to dislike the Pope, its Daily Mailesque in both its aggression and short sightedness.

These individuals only do 1/2 of what their Church tells them to do. If a fireman told me to leave my burning house and cross the street to the other side ... but I leave it, stand outside and then it falls on me as it burns down am I a victim of the fireman? Or of my own stupidity?

 

[Turamber]

I'm in no way a fan of the pope and his organisation (RCC) but I think while a lot of people object to its views I tend to think it really does annoy many that the tax payer is going to foot the bill.

Apparently he was invited to visit by Gordon Brown. The Church pays for all religious events and the UK taxpayer pays for the element of his visit which fall into 'state visit'. According to BBC News the other day the idea of quid pro quo is the norm in all international visits of this nature and the Vatican has suffered the cost of our Queen visiting five times.

 

[nath]

Where do people become responsible for their own actions, inactions or beliefs? You reduce people to mere automatons for the sake of your argument and wishing to dislike the Pope, its Daily Mailesque in both its aggression and short sightedness.

These individuals only do 1/2 of what their Church tells them to do. If a fireman told me to leave my burning house and cross the street to the other side ... but I leave it, stand outside and then it falls on me as it burns down am I a victim of the fireman? Or of my own stupidity?

I can't believe what I'm reading quite honestly. I don't even know where to begin with this - that you refuse to acknowledge that the catholic church shares responsibility for the AIDS situation in Africa is fucking bewildering to me. Sorry, but I'm out. You made a comment about people disliking authority - it sounds to me like you like it too much, at least religious authority anyway.


People are responsible for their own actions. The church/the pope are responsible for spreading misinformation about the efficacy of condoms and also spreading bullshit about the fact that they should not be used. They share responsibility for the AIDS situation.






edit: Scouse - you were right, I thought he was a reasonable person underneath all that religious stuff but that last comment has blown me away with its blinkered stupidity. That there are seemingly intelligent people in *this* country with those sort of views is incredibly fucking depressing.

 

[Scouse]

These individuals only do 1/2 of what their Church tells them to do. If a fireman told me to leave my burning house and cross the street to the other side ... but I leave it, stand outside and then it falls on me as it burns down am I a victim of the fireman? Or of my own stupidity?

These things are wrong with this:

1) It's not necessarily their church. -The church is telling everyone the lie about condoms. Resulting in DEATH

2) Firemen shouldn't have to deal with retards. If an African man saw his house on fire he'd leave. You can't see AIDS burning your house down.

the Vatican has suffered the cost of our Queen visiting five times.

The catholic church doesn't pay any taxes. Just receives them.


Anyway. Look at it this way: If British Petroleum was, as a structure, hiding paedophiles from the police then its heads would have been taken by police in dawn raids, it's holdings broken up and the company would have been scattered to the four winds.

The catholic church deserves no less.

edit: Scouse - you were right, I thought he was a reasonable person

Nah. He's the sort of person who'd rather judge AIDS victims as those who deserve it.

He's a coward. He's terrified of what it would mean for him if he lost the foundations of the structure of his life. He wouldn't understand how to make his way in the world without his belief to give him comfort. That's why I'm on his ignore list.

 

[DaGaffer]

Where do people become responsible for their own actions, inactions or beliefs? You reduce people to mere automatons for the sake of your argument and wishing to dislike the Pope, its Daily Mailesque in both its aggression and short sightedness.

These individuals only do 1/2 of what their Church tells them to do. If a fireman told me to leave my burning house and cross the street to the other side ... but I leave it, stand outside and then it falls on me as it burns down am I a victim of the fireman? Or of my own stupidity?

Why does their church feel the need to interfere in the sex lives of millions of people at all? I'm always amazed God botherers are so obsessed with sex, mainly other people's sex lives.

Your argument is deeply flawed because it fails to understand the typical power dynamic between men and women, especially in Africa. Men (pretty much all men if we're honest), don't like condoms. The church says don't use them, men use that as a justification not to. Men then go on to have unprotected sex outside marriage, get HIV, come back to their good catholic wives, and infect them. The woman is an innocent party in all this, is married, and obeying all the catholic dogma, and she still gets infected, and her kids are born HIV-positive. All because the catholic church thinks men can behave like plaster saints (when in reality 99.9% can't) and doesn't care about the fate of women anyway seeing as, like all the judaic religions, catholicism is deeply mysoginistic.

Men have never, in all of human history, been able to keep it in their pants (biologically we're not supposed to); the Catholic church, by failing to recognise reality rather than its own (largely made up several hundred years after Christ by the way) dogma, is condeming millions to death.

 

[throdgrain]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7OCbeXy_5w

 

[Krazeh]

Where do people become responsible for their own actions, inactions or beliefs? You reduce people to mere automatons for the sake of your argument and wishing to dislike the Pope, its Daily Mailesque in both its aggression and short sightedness.

These individuals only do 1/2 of what their Church tells them to do. If a fireman told me to leave my burning house and cross the street to the other side ... but I leave it, stand outside and then it falls on me as it burns down am I a victim of the fireman? Or of my own stupidity?

That is just beyond retarded. I can't believe you're seriously trying to argue the Catholic Church holds no responsibility for the continuing spread of HIV/AIDS in Africa due to people having unprotected sex when it goes around telling people that not only is using a condom is a sin but that doing so increases the AIDS problem.

 

[ramathorn]

If a fireman told me to leave my burning house and cross the street to the other side ... but I leave it, stand outside and then it falls on me as it burns down am I a victim of the fireman? Or of my own stupidity?

No, to use your analogy, the fireman would be telling you to stay inside the house thats burning down, that god will protect you. Then the house burns down with you inside. Then your the victim of a very retarded, backwards and evil fireman.

 

[noblok]

It's likely that the reason they're having unprotected sex is because they're told that condoms are not allowed in their religion.

Actually: I don't think this is all that likely. If you have empirical research which supports this, I'd be interested to see it though. I've mostly seen evidence which seems to indicate the standpoint of the church is positive rather than negative (with the Phillipines being the most striking example).

I do think the following is more likely:

Men (pretty much all men if we're honest), don't like condoms. The church says don't use them, men use that as a justification not to.

I don't think the stance of the church is that important, if it were different, they'd find another excuse.

 

[Scouse]

I don't think the stance of the church is that important

Strange that new AIDS infections are falling massively where programs that challenge the catholic churches views have been put into place then eh?

Either way noblok - how is the church's message that condoms cause AIDS "positive"?


Another christian who refuses to believe that his church can do any bad, perchance?

 

[Mabs]

-ANYONE- who takes the suggestion of a control mechanism that is trying as hard as possible to keep its grip in its stupid and easily led followers, over millenia of scientific research and study, is going to get what they deserve, nothing less.

and while were on the subject of such things, going to hospital then saying "oh i dont want A, B, or C cos of my beliefs", what the fuck are you doing in there, taking up a bed ,someone else actually -wants- . if you want to be martyred/saved by a floating baby with wings, or whatever, go lie in the street - im sure your purpotedly magical jew is going to manifest and save you wherever you are. or were you hedging your bets by sitting on the fence , in case, as it became more and more serious, you were worried it would prove to be nothing but a human device for control and not some divine all powerful entity....
?

 

[nath]

-ANYONE- who takes the suggestion of a control mechanism that is trying as hard as possible to keep its grip in its stupid and easily led followers, over millenia of scientific research and study, is going to get what they deserve, nothing less.

In other words, fucking stupid coons get what they deserve?

Really mabs?

 

[Mabs]

In other words, fucking stupid coons get what they deserve?

Really mabs?

nope
fucking stupid people who think religion is any replacement for science

admittedly in africa the problem is partially worsened by the level of education and so on .but its true of anything

 

[nath]

I think you're *massively* taking for granted your ability to see that religion is bullshit and science is obviously a better approach. Sure, certain people (some of whom frequent these boards) have no excuse but in Africa as you say the state of education is atrocious. Add a level of desperation and a religious institution exploiting that with claims that heaven awaits and you have some misguided people.

So I think it's a little unfair to say they get what they deserve.

 

[Scouse]

I think you're *massively* taking for granted your ability to see that religion is bullshit and science is obviously a better approach

I'd go further. I'd say that many of them would never have even heard the concept of science and believe blindly in what the church says - just like humans have done for the last couple of thousand years.

So when the chuch says "don't use condoms", whilst refusing to acknowledge mankind needs sex, they know that people will die.

Nice recruiting tool tho eh? Look at all these people dying who deserve it. If only they'd listend to the teachings of the church they'd be alive eh?...

 

[throdgrain]

So. Are you suggesting that if everyone in Africa had the same school education from age 5 onwards they would behave more or less exactly like us? Because I'm suggesting that they wouldnt.

By the way, does NO-ONE like Dr Feelgood then ?

 

[nath]

So. Are you suggesting that if everyone in Africa had the same school education from age 5 onwards they would behave more or less exactly like us? Because I'm suggesting that they wouldnt.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. What I'm suggesting is that if education was higher, and their living conditions weren't desperate enough to exploit in to religion, they'd be in a much better position to make a reasoned decision.

 

[throdgrain]

In maybe another 5 generations.

 

[nath]

In maybe another 5 generations.

Mayhaps. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that they're currently not in the best position to know that the Catholic church is spouting an awful lot of dangerous bullshit.

 

[Mabs]

as an aside, i was commenting on the church in general, not the AIDS thing per se

and this is going to sound harsh, but there we go :

if the third world was fixed by tomorrow afternoon, there would not be enough petrol for cars, food for people, jobs, etc, to keep everyone in the luxury they are accustomed to. so it is in the interests of "the west" for people in places like africa to go on dying of nasty diseases, cos it stops us having to compete with them . so its not likely that this will ever be fixed. if it wasnt the catholic church,it would be Nestle or someone else