Politics Election 2019

[Scouse]

So the bloke he was, ahem, "flirting" with didn't make a complaint, but some bystander did? Fuck me, is that where we're at now? It's like fucking Iran.

I wonder if the Tory party will make something of it - a setup to form part of a weapon against wokeness or somesuch bullshit.

If not, I'm actually alarmed.

 

[Embattle]

They go from one extreme to another from trying to hide stuff to throwing someone out the door.

 

[ECA]

So the bloke he was, ahem, "flirting" with didn't make a complaint, but some bystander did? Fuck me, is that where we're at now? It's like fucking Iran.

If he was rubbing up a young female attendee do you say the same thing?

Cabinet minister and senior No 10 aide accused of sexual misconduct

Two women make allegations of sexual assault and groping

www.independent.co.uk

It took years before Caroline Nokes came forward with her story:

Stanley Johnson accused of groping senior Tory MP and journalist

www.standard.co.uk

 

[DaGaffer]

If he was rubbing up a young female attendee do you say the same thing?

Cabinet minister and senior No 10 aide accused of sexual misconduct

Two women make allegations of sexual assault and groping

www.independent.co.uk

It took years before Caroline Nokes came forward with her story:

Stanley Johnson accused of groping senior Tory MP and journalist

www.standard.co.uk

I would expect corroboration from the individual who's alleged to have been assaulted, male OR female.

 

[Embattle]

View: https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1578824671335940098?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

 

[ECA]

I would expect corroboration from the individual who's alleged to have been assaulted, male OR female.

Why do they owe you anything?

Ariana Grande got groped on stage at a funeral and didnt press charges - and that's on video.
Louis Walsh groped mel B on live TV.

it isn't always as simple as you seem to think, there is a cost for the victims to come forward re: their own mental health, and they don't owe it to anyone if they don't want to make a public accusation.

 

[Scouse]

Ariana Grande got groped on stage at a funeral and didnt press charges - and that's on video.
Louis Walsh groped mel B on live TV.

I think that the victim of a crime really has to feel like a crime was comitted and want to pursue it tbh.

Two related personal stories which muddy your absolutist water:

I've had my balls grabbed, hard, in a nightclub by a woman who plainly thought that's was a way of offering sex. I was literally walking passed her with drinks. It wasn't pleasant. It was years before Trump but his grab 'em by the pussy trope wasn't just practiced by men.

Do I want her prosecuted?

The second - in Oz, minding my own business. Approached by a rather lovely swiss-french volleyball player. I was in a relationship so I wouldn't let her advances go anywhere but we did spend a nice afternoon together. She told me that some bloke on a ferry had grabbed her by the pussy - and she found it horny and had fucked him. (Again, pre-Trump).

Should she have felt violated? If it was witnessed, should he be prosecuted without her consent?

 

[Wij]

On the other hand, there may be more details about the case or other cases than you know about that made the Tory party think, "We need to let this creep go."

Maybe don't rush to judgement either way.

 

[Gwadien]

I think that the victim of a crime really has to feel like a crime was comitted and want to pursue it tbh.

Two related personal stories which muddy your absolutist water:

I've had my balls grabbed, hard, in a nightclub by a woman who plainly thought that's was a way of offering sex. I was literally walking passed her with drinks. It wasn't pleasant. It was years before Trump but his grab 'em by the pussy trope wasn't just practiced by men.

Do I want her prosecuted?

The second - in Oz, minding my own business. Approached by a rather lovely swiss-french volleyball player. I was in a relationship so I wouldn't let her advances go anywhere but we did spend a nice afternoon together. She told me that some bloke on a ferry had grabbed her by the pussy - and she found it horny and had fucked him. (Again, pre-Trump).

Should she have felt violated? If it was witnessed, should he be prosecuted without her consent?

Neither of which have high public offices.

 

[Ormorof]

Its not even the first time hes been booted, he will be back in a year or two with a generic name like that no one will even remember this

 

[Scouse]

Neither of which have high public offices.

Irrelevant. We know nothing about the first woman and it's not about her anyway - it's about me and how I feel. The second question isn't anything to do with position.

If the real-life scenarios are too challenging for you to answer why not just say so? But I really would appreciate you giving it a proper stab.

 

[Raven]

I think Kae Tempest described UK politics quite well a few years ago.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwmz5fIjhq0

 

[Scouse]

I don't think they's describing UK politics - they's scope is much wider than that.


They really need to pick another pronoun.

 

[DaGaffer]

Why do they owe you anything?

Ariana Grande got groped on stage at a funeral and didnt press charges - and that's on video.
Louis Walsh groped mel B on live TV.

it isn't always as simple as you seem to think, there is a cost for the victims to come forward re: their own mental health, and they don't owe it to anyone if they don't want to make a public accusation.

It's not about owing me anything, don't be absurd. It's about proof not supposition, and the only person who can supply that is the "victim". If you don't involve the victim then anyone could be fair game, simply on the basis of an accusation, and you're also at the mercy of the morality of the accuser which may have absolutely nothing to do with the "victim's" experience.

I have no idea what went on in this case other than a BBC report that implied he was sacked on the basis of eyewitness behaviour. The guy might be a total predatory cunt, or he could simply be someone Liz Truss doesn't like much and she took the opportunity to be the big tough leader.

As for the victims not wishing to press charges, that's their choice, but without that there is no crime, just moral disapproval, because adults on both sides of this have to make their own choices.

 

[dysfunction]

It's not about owing me anything, don't be absurd. It's about proof not supposition, and the only person who can supply that is the "victim". If you don't involve the victim then anyone could be fair game, simply on the basis of an accusation, and you're also at the mercy of the morality of the accuser which may have absolutely nothing to do with the "victim's" experience.

I have no idea what went on in this case other than a BBC report that implied he was sacked on the basis of eyewitness behaviour. The guy might be a total predatory cunt, or he could simply be someone Liz Truss doesn't like much and she took the opportunity to be the big tough leader.

As for the victims not wishing to press charges, that's their choice, but without that there is no crime, just moral disapproval, because adults on both sides of this have to make their own choices.

Of course there is a crime. Maybe the victim is too ashamed or whatever to do anything. Just because they don't do anything doesn't mean a crime hasn't been committed. If some has been sexualy assaulted it is a crime.

With your logic If someone is killed and nobody has noticed then a crime hasn't been committed?

 

[DaGaffer]

Of course there is a crime. Maybe the victim is too ashamed or whatever to do anything. Just because they don't do anything doesn't mean a crime hasn't been committed.

With your logic If someone is killed and nobody has noticed then a crime hasn't been committed?

No, you don't know that. You can't know that without asking the victim. The rest of your statement is pure whataboutery and you know it.

 

[dysfunction]

No, you don't know that. You can't know that without asking the victim. The rest of your statement is pure whataboutery and you know it.

And you don't know either. If you saw a women getting groped and are clearly saying no you'll just let it go and say nothing is happening here. It's all fine?

 

[DaGaffer]

And you don't know either. If you saw a women getting groped and are clearly saying no you'll just let it go and say nothing is happening here. It's all fine?

I might intervene AND ASK THE WOMAN IF SHE WAS OK. How hard is this to understand? Without context you don't know.

 

[Gwadien]

Energy use advice campaign pulled due to cost, Zahawi says

The cabinet minister tells the BBC the public information campaign would have cost up to £15m.

www.bbc.co.uk

£15m.

Too expensive.

Absolute clowns.

 

[Scouse]

No, you don't know that. You can't know that without asking the victim. The rest of your statement is pure whataboutery and you know it.

Exactly.

@dysfunction - perhaps you'd have a go at the two situations I posted. They're both way more serious than talking to someone in a bar and putting your hand on their thigh.

If your logic applies to that situation - it applies to the two situations above.

Go on, we've a chance here of actually hashing something out for real, and maybe (gasp!) learning something!

 

[Scouse]

Energy use advice campaign pulled due to cost, Zahawi says

The cabinet minister tells the BBC the public information campaign would have cost up to £15m.

www.bbc.co.uk

£15m.

Too expensive.

Absolute clowns.

To be fair - if the BBC and the energy producers are putting out "what to do to save energy" messages and people are ignoring them, then the government has a point. "Do you want us to treat you like a bunch of fucking idiots" is the question.

My answer to that would be "yes - the lack of a decent education system means we all are. Clearly."

 

[Gwadien]

Sturgeon accused of divisive rhetoric for saying 'I detest the Tories'

Nicola Sturgeon says she does not regret her words after being accused of "dangerous" rhetoric.

www.bbc.co.uk

So Sturgeon can't say fuck the Tories but Liz can say fuck Macron?

Bluh

 

[dysfunction]

Exactly.

@dysfunction - perhaps you'd have a go at the two situations I posted. They're both way more serious than talking to someone in a bar and putting your hand on their thigh.

If your logic applies to that situation - it applies to the two situations above.

Go on, we've a chance here of actually hashing something out for real, and maybe (gasp!) learning something!

So do you think you were sexualy assaulted on those occasions?

 

[Scouse]

So do you think you were sexualy assaulted on those occasions?

I explained exactly what happened. You have said that a sexual assault happened when this politician put his hand on that lad's thigh.

The challenge is: You tell me.

You specifically have ruled out asking the "victim" of the "sexual assault" in the politician's case whether he feels it was a sexual assault. Why do you need my input in this case? Grow a pair Dys and answer the questions posed. Both of them.

Just to quote you:

Of course there is a crime.

...

 

[dysfunction]

You specifically have ruled out asking the "victim" of the "sexual assault"
...

Where did I say that?

 

[Scouse]

Where did I say that?

Don't start backtracking and swerving. You said "of course there is a crime" in response to @DaGaffer saying you "need to ask the victim". The whole argument is about not needing to ask the "victim" if they're actually a fucking victim.

I've provided the quote. Kindly answer the question instead of doing the squirming bullshit thing. Or be an adult and admit your view needs amendment.

 

[dysfunction]

Don't start backtracking and swerving. You said "of course there is a crime" in response to @DaGaffer saying you "need to ask the victim". The whole argument is about not needing to ask the "victim" if they're actually a fucking victim.

I've provided the quote. Kindly answer the question instead of doing the squirming bullshit thing. Or be an adult and admit your view needs amendment.

I'm not backtracking or swerving or whaterver else you may think I'm doing. That's your arena that is.
What I was talking about was a crime is still a crime if it's reported or not. Maybe that wasnt clear. It doesnt suddenly become a crime only when it's reported. It becomes a crime when the criminal incident occurs. But I never inferred that you dont have to ask the victim. That should be part of the investigation once it has been reported.

And you have avoided answering my question

You have said that a sexual assault happened when this politician put his hand on that lad's thigh.

...

I didnt say that either.

 

[dysfunction]

Reading back I was actually being general and not referring directly to that incident so can see why you think that

 

[Scouse]

Got angry and did a midnight bullshit to all my posts @dysfunction. Why not answer the questions? Or do they make a mess of your labour-voting overly-legislating morally-offended worldview?

 

[Scouse]

Facepalm! No answer to the questions I notice though. In the absence of engagement I'll take that as you not having an opposing argument, thanks.

(I mean, you're not conceding, but you won't challenge yourself. "Of course" a crime occured, right?)