Depression

[Wazzerphuk]

I didn't mean to offend anyone with that comment. A wee bit of searching the old interweb can turn up opinions both for and against a link between long-term MDMA use and serious depression. What I said was just my opinion, and I only offered it as a throwaway comment after mentioning Serototin. Erm... sorry





http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2848489.stm

http://www.idmu.co.uk/extherapy.htm

On the other hand...



http://www.tranzfusion.net/articles/shownews.asp?newsid=2314

I suggest you go and read all the medical reports and all on www.erowid.org. Particularly the ones that go into detail about 'proved' theories with toally fucked up test groups.

 

[granny]

I suggest you go and read all the medical reports and all on www.erowid.org. Particularly the ones that go into detail about 'proved' theories with toally fucked up test groups.

A lot of the articles there do indeed indicate that MDMA is neurotoxic and may be associated with depression. The research is complex and the picture is far from clear but there is a lot of good research conducted by good scientists and peer-reviewed that indicates negative effects as a result of MDMA use.

You seem very touchy about this - are you a regular E user yourself? If so then it can't hurt to look at the evidence objectively yourself, at least you should be aware of the possible dangers - and I say this from the point of view of someone who used to do a lot of E's myself.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

*May*, yes.

A big may. There is no proof though, I was angry and mofo for spouting off like it was truth and simple. It isn't.

 

[xane]

Welcome to FreddysMadHouse

I qualify anyway as I've been on Seroxat before due to Anxiety (Panic Attacks).

 

[Lazarus]

ooohhh!!

After all the shitty threads you trawl through from day to day, someone really posts a nugget of a thread (grats Mofo)

Actually, before I read this thread, I thought I had a decent handle on life - now I'm not so sure.

Nothing written in this post it intended to belittle or offend anyone reading.

Ive gone through lifes little up's and downs (usually not so little) and havent really needed any "help". Im not usually a worrier - I do suffer sometimes from sleep deprivation, but thats more to do with too much caffeine and too much reading late at night, not to mention young children who dont understand old age and the requirement for a good nights sleep)

Ive had the dark times in my life (which I will not share on public forums), but also the good times (marriage, children the works).

I just feel that life is there to be experienced; take the dark times and work through them to the good times. Most of the problems causing depression is all in the mind; perhaps im just too "simple" to let it constantly get me down.

yes, I do get depressed, but not to the point it takes over my life.

did I make sense; thinking about it im not sure

 

[Bodhi]

Whenever I've done pills in the past I've been in a great mood for the following fortnight at least. MDMA cause depression? Hardly. It's called the comedown. After your brain has released all your seratonin into your system the night before it's quite normal to feel a bit pooey the day after, however compared to a hangover it's a walk in the park. But then again like I said, I always feel awesome for the next fortnight at least, so I think this is scientists talking a lot of arse about something they haven't experienced.

 

[throdgrain]

Speed comedown gotta be the worst though :/

 

[Bodhi]

aye, especially when mixed with a hangover. Felt like the closest I have ever come to death, both before and since.




Well, there was one time on Acid, but I was literally just tripping.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Whenever I've done pills in the past I've been in a great mood for the following fortnight at least. MDMA cause depression? Hardly. It's called the comedown. After your brain has released all your seratonin into your system the night before it's quite normal to feel a bit pooey the day after, however compared to a hangover it's a walk in the park. But then again like I said, I always feel awesome for the next fortnight at least, so I think this is scientists talking a lot of arse about something they haven't experienced.

It's all individual, it affects different people in different ways. Sometimes the week after will be a little bit of a slug, but not much than normal, and on the other hand sometimes it leaves you gagging full of energy and good vibes after. The only time I've had a comedown that was genuinely negative was after my birthday: the combination of being 'up' and catching a brutal (and I mean brutal) flu virus does not leave for a good comedown. At all. For the most part I find the 'down' very funny, with your brain and body all slow and battered there's nothing better than a bit of humour to laugh at yourself and everything around you.

 

[granny]

OK this needs sorting out, some of you clearly still have no idea what we're talking about here.

As has already been said but needs reiterating, depression is NOT just "feeling a bit miserable". It is not a case of the blues, it is not a comedown. I've had plenty of comedowns, I know full well what 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin, not seratonin btw) depletion feels like, a comedown is a fucking doddle.

I can only speak from my own experience of what depression can feel like but to all of you who are saying or thinking that depressives need to "just snap out of it" or "get outside a bit more" or whatever I assure you that you have no concept of what it feels like.

Some days I can't leave the house. At all. I cannot speak to anyone, even using the telephone to phone in sick is a serious problem. At it's absolute worst I've been confined to 1 or 2 rooms in the house. Everything is crushed beneath a heavy black cloak, my thoughts, my feelings, the whole world. I can't think properly - my ability to reason logically is totally gone. Even memory is affected - some things I mis-remember, other memories I mis-interpret. Simple things like eating become a real challenge - I can't cook, I don't deserve something nice to eat, there's nothing easy to prepare in the house and there's no way I can handle a supermarket but hey there's a bottle of wine, fuck it that'll do. Your brain becomes awash with negativity, self-loathing, paranoia, totally obsessive thought patterns going round and round and round in circles.

Sleep becomes badly disturbed. I will find it impossible to get to sleep and when I finally do I wake up at odd times. If the depression lasts for more than a few days then I tend to try and avoid driving since usually I'm sleep-deprived to some extent. It's not unknown for me to fall asleep suddenly for an hour or two in the middle of the day when I'm at my worst.

The worst part of it all is that while it's happening it's almost impossible to look at it objectively and think to myself "oh it's just another bout of depression, hang in there, it'll pass". I'm slowly getting better at recognising it and realising it's happening and when I do it's a lot easier because I can start putting the defensive behaivours into practice. When I don't recognise it's happening it's a nightmare. I treat people badly, I mis-interpret other people, it seems unrelenting and I cannot see any way out of it at all.

Feeling a bit down or having a comedown don't cause people to attempt suicide, they don't break up relationships and marriages, they don't make doctor after doctor try and prescribe you anti-depressants. At it's worst clinical depression is a highly debilitating mental illness and I would give everything I own to be able to be free of it. Reading back over the last few paragraphs I have to admit I don't think I've managed to convey 1/100th of what it's really like, I just hope that maybe some of you will start thinking about how different what I'm trying to describe is from everyday mental states.

 

[throdgrain]

Actually, that sounds fucking terrible Granny

Having said that, some people DO need to get out more !

 

[Lazarus]

Actually, that sounds fucking terrible Granny

ditto!

I dont think the majority really understand - unless you have personally experienced this you cannot comprehend how bad it can be.

 

[Damini]

Well said Granny. You've described it really well.

 

[Covenant]

Well said Granny. You've described it really well.

Almost exactly, in fact.

I suffered from depression really quite badly a few years ago. Even though the sertraline I was prescribed did help, it fucked around with a lot of my lower functions - sleep, libido, hunger. My personal experience with anti-depressants is that they seem to equalise your higher states, allowing you to function normally in society, at the expense of the more base needs of the human body.

I still suffer, off and on, but I refuse to go back to the doctor. I will NOT tolerate my life becoming regulated by the use of drugs to moderate my serotonin levels. Yeah, they help, but the cost is too high.

I can still function in work, at home, etc, but if I start feeling the depression, I have to fight hard until I can get some time to myself and sort things out. It's the irrational self-loathing, anger and paranoia that cause me problems. Without the drugs, I can still eat, sleep and live, but I have to balance that with the bleakness of spirit and total lack of self-confidence in my ability to just BE.

As has been posted several times, you really can't say enough to describe it, even if you're suffering or have suffered from depression in the past. It's something that I would never, ever wish upon anyone.

 

['Shy]

But the weird thing is I almost don't want to do anything about it. Firstly because I'm afraid people won't take it seriously (I still have this blokey belief that there's nothing wrong with me - "Depression? Rubbish! Just Buck up your ideas sonny.") but the oddest thing is that I'm almost more comfortable like this. I've been the way I am since I was about 13 and it's like I can deal with it - whereas the idea of getting better and maybe being happy actually scares me somewhat as I don't know what it's like. It's like a cycle - I bring down a lot of it on myself by starting each day with a sense of inevitable doom and that way I'm never surprised when something bad happens. Like Eyore from Winnie The Pooh! "Oh well, that would fucking happen to big, loser me wouldn't it?".

I've never had suicidal thoughts or harmed myself - mine is more apathetic than that. I'm quite happy to live through the shit in a kind of "Pah, I just dont care. Everything's shit, nothing's going to get better" kind of way.

This really hit home to me, I feel almost exactly the same. I've been on prozac about 14 months, don't feel any different at all, except maybes somewhere deep inside tells me I'll get better because I'm on medication.

Don't really have time to talk much right now as I'm at work but I'll watch this thread and contribute more later.

 

[Tom]

I know this is threadnomancy, but I'd just like to say something now.

I was wrong. Completely, utterly wrong. I posted some silly comments (not in this thread, but I'm sure some people will remember which one it was).

Some things have come to light in my family history that.....well....explain a lot of things. It probably suffices to say that had I known about these things (well over 60 years ago), and how they subsequently affected my own father and his relationships with friends/family, I would probably have been a lot more understanding.

I've posted a few thoughts on another forum and received some really nice support, so I figured since this is the forum I've posted on for the longest, I should try and explain. I'm not looking for sympathy, but I think what I've learnt may add to the discussion.



Basically, I found out from an auntie (dad's sister) who has been tracing family history for years that my paternal grandmother was diagnosed with 'manic depression'. This apparently was triggered by the death of one of her children just a few short days after birth (coincidentally I am named after this child but I'll come back to that). She tried to dig the corpse up from the grave. Institutionalised, electric shock therapy, the lot. She also abused my dad and his sister (the one doing the family history) which is where the pain arises. They were only 2-3 years old at the time, but we're talking freezing cold bath water, beatings, etc. Not nice stuff, and not something I or anybody else should dwell upon.

I never knew her, she died years before I was born. My auntie forgave her and looked after her before she died, but my dad I don't believe ever forgave her, along with another sister and brother.

My Dad hated her. Hated her. I never pressed him on the topic since I knew he wasn't happy discussing it. He lied to me and told me he didn't know where she is buried - such is the level of bile. I found out from my sister where she is buried, although I haven't been to the grave.

All of this has ruined any relationship I may have had my my dad. I have absolutely no good memories of growing up as far as he is concerned. I was never mistreated in any way and my mum is brilliant (totally selfless). If I have kids I'll be teaching them things. Human things, socialising, friendships, activities - you know, all the stuff that good parents make sure happens. Apart from my mum who did her best, I had none of that from my dad. If I did something wrong, I was punished. The only lesson I learned was not to get caught, nothing was ever explained to me although I thank my stars that I can step outside of a situation and view it from the outside. I had mates at school who received far worse and they're doing time now.

For some bizarre reason as well, I don't think I ever stood a chance. I have 2 sisters, who he dotes upon. On family holidays, I was never allowed to sit up front in the car. Pathetic thing to say really, but to a young lad things like that aren't forgotten. I probably sound like I'm looking for sympathy here, but I'm just telling it the way I remember things, of course when I was that young I just thought that was the way things were supposed to be. The thing is that when those sisters grew up, both of them left the home with a boot up their backside, so rebellious they became. I'm the only one who left of his own accord!

I often wonder if, sharing the name of my (dead in childhood) uncle, somehow those fears have been projected onto me by my dad. I don't suppose I'll ever find out unless he volunteers the information, because you just can't speak to the man about these things.

At the end of the day, I've accepted that its not going to change. There won't be any happy endings.



Anyway, blithering over, I've had a lot of time to think about things recently and a lot of personal and work shit has happened over the last few months that has made me think seriously about the type of person I am, my friends, and what I want to do with life. Finding out this information about my gran has been useful in connecting up some pieces. Its reckoned by some people that depression can be hereditory - now I'm not making excuses here but when I read that, with what I now know about my family, it set a few bells ringing. One sister had post-natel depression (and lost custody of her daughter because of it). The other sister has also suffered from depression, although thankfully shes married and has a daughter too now.

I'm just a bit worried that the same thing will happen to me, and I can't decide between the hereditory aspect, or if its been my upbringing which I sometimes am fairly bitter about. I'm determined not to dwell upon it, not to visit the GP about it, I just want to 'self achieve' if that makes sense.

I just wanted to write this down and feel a bit better, and also apologise if I've been silly (and a bit weird and rude lately in my posts).

 

[haarewin]

Tom - depression does seem to have hereditability, but there is no known 'depressive genome', and it isn't set in stone if it is the environment or a combination of a predisposition triggered by some life event.
I don't think it is a good idea to go 'oh well, I'm going to get it' - each of the 'depressions' (I dont know how to word that) your family has gone through is different, but if it happens I would seriously consider alternative therapies to going onto antidepressants. I was on tricyclics as a teen and they made me so much worse off. I now understand why, the doctor told my mum about all the side effects but not me - they just wanted me better.
I'm currently going through a depressive episode again, for several reasons that I don't want to go into. I can't motivate myself to do anything about it though. I don't even know what caused it, I just realised a few weeks ago that I wasn't feeling anything but empty. There are times when it is better, and I actually experience an emotion, but in general I'm apathetic, and just going through the motions and putting on this brave face so noone actually knows anything is wrong.
But I've made a resolution now, that next week, once the anxiety from a presentation I have to do has passed, I'll do something about it. Maybe I will go to the doctor to talk about alternatives, but I am not going on SSRI's or anything else.

 

[`mongoose]

Haarewin

I think you're actually making the first step now. You're talking to someone about it (even if it via a virtualy forum such as this).

I must admit I think you're very brave passing such personal information onto an open forum such as this.

I hope you manage to find the help you're looking for. I've heard it said that getting some form of routine and trying to fill your time with activities can help alleviate depression, although I suspect that this by just taking any time for thinking about it away..

I hope you're feeling better about yourself, life, the universe soon

M

 

[haarewin]

thanks M.
i agree, i don't notice it when i'm doing coursework, or at work, or playing some game, but the second i stop its all 'nothing'. thanks for reading.

 

[mank!]

i'd be depressed if i lived in bristol as well.

in all seriousness, don't completely write off the possibility of medication. it's the only thing that's helped me really, as i said earlier in this thread - albeit nearly 2 years ago - i've been through all sorts of therapy bollocks and it didn't really get me anywhere.

about a year ago, whilst i was working in a pharmacy, i chose to start taking fluoxetine (prozac) and although the benefits weren't instant, things slowly improved over time until i felt well enough to start moving forward with my life.

i'm now at college studying for my a-levels, i've got some brilliant friends, some top notch mates and for the first time in years, i've got a social life. looking back on myself a few years ago and how i couldn't bring myself to leave the house, it seems insane considering that i now travel all over the country for football without giving it a second's thought.

of course, this isn't to say that everything is great. i still feel low sometimes, occasionally something will upset me and it'll trigger everything off and i'll start to spiral down again. fortunately i'm now in a position where i can drag myself out of it by going down the pub and meeting up with some mates, an option which i never had before.

the only real downside of anti-depressants is the fact i can't drink heavily, which is annoying.

right i'm going back to making snide remarks on various threads.

 

[gmloki]

My situation is not too disimilar to Tom's and I really feel for you. Having a father who was never there who bullied and abused the ones closest to you Is not pleasent. Although the door was closed he made sure I heard every sound as he sexually abused my step sister. The later in life he just brushes it under the carpet and makes me feel guilty for my very existance.

His best tactic was to make me feel absolutley worthless in his eyes. The only way I could ever be in his good books was to do favours for him which got bigger and bigger and bigger. Ultimately it was just took for granted I would do some really dodgy stuff for him. The last straw was when he asked me to pick a new car for him as he was in work. Not a problem. I goto the garage and sign for the keys. It transpires that I had actually signed to guarantee the finance on a £15k car that he had used a false name to obtain the credit. So I was to contact the finance company then I would be party to fraud.

I've lost my best freind to depression on my part. He could not understand why I could not go out of the house to attend his stag do and I was being really selfish. Almost borderline hatred as I was being soft and let him down. Cheers just what I needed.

So two years on I have good times and I have bad times. Psycho-therapy helped me understand why I felt like I did. Not helped with issues of low self esteem, apathy, lethargy and being unhappy. I guess hapiness really is self defined though. I wonder if you do actually get over depression or if you just learn to live with it and accept it as part of your life

 

[Jupitus]

It takes guts to self-analyse and appreciate the inner workings of yourself in detail, and it can also be scary as hell.

The effects of depression can be totally debilitating, rendering people practically inoperable, and yet with no 'physical signs' from the outside it can be very difficult for others to understand what you are going through, and there is a tendency to accept this as meaning 'nobody knows what I am going through'. This is wrong, though. Since I was diagnosed as having 'severe depression' a couple of years back, I have been amazed to find just how many others suffer similar illnesses, and I have found plenty of support around me from friends, the online community (you're all bastards, really!! ) and family to help.

Last words: don't be overly proud. Medical science is constantly creating newer and better medecines for treatment of illnesses like this. Personally, I have been taking Escitalopram, a form of SSRI, for about 2 years and although I am still using it I hope to, maybe, come off it later this year. At the onset of takiong SSRIs, I would come back from the doctors and cry for about half an hour, feeling inadequate at relying on drugs to 'be normal', but once you get your head around the fact that the issue (at least in my case) is a physical imbalance of chemicals in the brain, and that the drugs are just corrective, you can shake off these feelings. In other words, don't rule anything out, and good luck


EDIT: P.S. Excessive use of commas, although sometimes, if used in the appropriate places, a sign of unusally verbiage, is in fact, according to some, a common side-effect of my treatment

 

[SAS]

I've experienced depression while at Uni and have a real experience with my mum who is a manic depressive.

After my Dad left my mum fell into depression. Her depression caused her to do a number of silly things, but the worst was verbal attacks on me and my sister. She'd rant daily telling me how stupid and worthless we were, and I never knew what to say because her mood swings were unpredictable. One minute she'd be calm, the next full of rage. This led me to develop a problem with anxiety. I became anxious, very shy, quiet and reserved.

I was sent to see a counsellor and a child psychologist when I was younger to help bring me out of my shell. Before I saw them I thought they would be a waste of time, but it's amazing how better you fell after seeing one, sharing your problems and realising their is someone out there to support you.

After a number of years I went to uni. At this point my mum had been placed upon some medication after our GP found she had a chemical imbalance in her brain, which caused her depression. The meds seemed to over night to snap her out of her cycle of rages, and although she'd still have an outburst now and then she is a lot better. Proof drugs can help in some situations?

While at uni I was painfully shy. Feeling physically sick with anxiety was a daily occurrence and something I thought I had to live with. Although I wanted to go to pubs/clubs e.t.c I did not have the confidence to do it after it had been drilled into me how worthless I was when I was younger. Somehow I did well on my uni course and made a number of friends. I even became the PR officer of my unis computer society and helping to host a 40 player LAN party, however by this point I had learnt to hide behind the scenes and pass ideas onto people to avoid being in the limelight.

After this point, end of my 2nd year of uni, depression hit. I think it was caused by my course becoming increasingly more difficult and realising I wanted to do more with my life and break out of my shell, but not knowing how to do it. Also being winter I suffer mild SAD. Depression for me felt like I was in a dark pit, with my friends and family looking down at me. Everyday the pit would become deeper and soon I was enveloped by darkness with no way out.

At this point I started seeing a counsellor again via my GP and left uni at the start of my 3rd year, luckily managing to scrap a HND on my course. Over a few months I was placed on a low level anti-depressant and saw a counsellor regularly. Having a close group of friends helped and I started going to a local social club for pool nights. My confidence grew, and I came out of my depression, although I still had a high level of anxiety.

It was only after I was bitten by a friends dog, which became infected did things change for me. I was given antibiotics, but my body reacted severely to them and I was bed ridden for a week with a thumping heart beat and constant indigestion. During this week I started to think “what if this is the end?” I started to get annoyed at myself about the things I could have done in my life and vowed to do something about it.

To cut a long story short that was a turning point for me. I became determined I’d break out of my shyness, and beat my anxieties. I made a list of mental goals I wanted to achieve and set about doing them. Having some focus helped drive me on and over a number of months I started to enter pubs, and clubs. Started to meet next people and so on…

I’ve also seen an anxiety management counsellor over the years, and still do once in a while. They teach you to think more rationally and I am able to manage my anxiety with a few techniques allowing me to do things, which when done again and again never become a problem again. For example simple things like ordering a taxi used to be difficult. The golden rule is also never ever back away from a task. For example if you are in a queue to order a Whopper meal with a mate make sure you order it. The more you do things the less the anxiety becomes. I’ll stop there as this is a thread about depression not anxiety

I’ve only experienced depression once, and if I feel myself getting down over a period of time I try and work out what is causing it and tackle it. If the problem is left to long it becomes bigger. Also I tend to see minor problems as challenges and never use the word ‘problem’.

Lastly I try to live life to the full. You only have one chance at it, make the most of it. Don’t sit back and except you suffer from anxiety or depression. You can beat it, or at least manage it.

A lot of people suffer from depression and there is a lot of help avaliable. Never feel put off going to see your GP.

 

[Chilly]

Well I must say having read a few very personal accounts I'm glad I never suffered from depression - I always thought it was a crock of shit and that people suffering it were just being stupid. I still do think that about some people I know, but I recognise there certainly is a point when it is no longer superifical and self inflicted and that it really is an illness that can be treated.

 

[mank!]

The golden rule is also never ever back away from a task. For example if you are in a queue to order a Whopper meal with a mate make sure you order it. The more you do things the less the anxiety becomes. I’ll stop there as this is a thread about depression not anxiety

anxiety and depression are generally linked and both are fairly similar anyway.

similar to you, i managed to conquer my anxiety by just going through with things. i stopped giving a toss about myself and what could happen and just did stuff. it's difficult to explain but it worked for me.

it's interesting reading about people's experiences and seeing how they are similar or how they differ to my own.

on a related note, i'm now studying psychology and am contemplating it as a career. it's helped me understand problems i've had in the past as well.

p.s. chilly, you're right to an extent. there are people who wallow in self-pity because they want to be depressed.

they're called emus

 

[haarewin]

yeah, anxiety and depression are both "affective disorders". the drugs work similarly too.
i don't want to go onto SSRI's because i know all the negative side effects insideout, and tricyclics caused me problems before - most of these have SRI components and it was the side effects i got that were related to excess of 5-HT (i've recently learned this). learning psychopharmacology has frightened me off a lot of conventional meds :/ i'm off to do some research before i talk to a doctor

 

[nath]

St Johns Wort anyone? Supposedly a very good A-D and none of those evil side effects.

 

[Aada]

My brother died last year in march from Leukemia he had it for 2 years they cured it 2 times supposedly but each time a month or so after he always said he could feel it coming back in his body.

Then November 04 he had a bonemarrow transplant (the last ditch effort) again he looked great until January when one night he came downstairs and said:

''Mum/James i can feel it in my body again'' about a week later we had to call an ambulance because his body was basicly starting to shut down.

He had Pneumonia which was a nasty chest infection to begin with but because he had no immune system it got worse and worse.

he was in hospital until March when about a week before he died we took him to a Hospice.

I'll never forget the day the doctor of the hospice came in and asked him if he knew what was happening he just said ''yeah ive come here to die basicly'' the doctor was stunned we were too but we all knew it.

The last few days were really painful it was really painful watching him asleep and talking in his sleep fuck knows what was going through his mind. He did say to us from time to time that someone was talking to him a womans voice he didn't know but that she was helping him and saying everything will be ok.

Anyway the final day when he passed away i went home an hour before for something to eat as i got home i got a phone call from my dad saying he had passed away.

When i got there it was horrible just seeing him there not moving, mouth open so i just stood next to him gave him a hug and kiss and cried my eyes out, i just wish i was there with him until the last breath. The 8th of Feb was his birthday the other day so that was depressing too.

What sucks is that he was in the Army serving in the Congo about 6 months before he got the illlness and the type of Leukemia he had was AFRICAN origin a very agressive and one of the rarest in this country.

He told us that the site he worked on (he was an engineer) was on top of a mass grave apprently some 3000 bodies beneath him.

However the Army have somehow managed to loose all his medical documents so we can't take them to court and sue these fucks which was his last wish.

Cover up anyone?

 

[throdgrain]

Im rarely moved Aada, rarely indeed, but your post has actually made me want to reply.
I really feel for your grief mate, and hope you will get over it in time.

 

[Tom]

A very moving post, and I hope your brother is happy wherever he is now