Fact David, why don't you suck my balls?

[gohan]

i'll say it again. there are two terms, atheist who firmly belive there is NO GOD and agnostics woh dont think about it/ dont care/ havent decided ect ect

not many people are really atheist, most are agnostic

 

[Scouse]

i'll say it again. there are two terms, atheist who firmly belive there is NO GOD and agnostics woh dont think about it/ dont care/ havent decided ect ect

not many people are really atheist, most are agnostic

Stop sticking your head in the ground to justify your beliefs gohan.

The term atheist is well known to be a hotly debated term - the reason being that religious people need athiest to be defined as "belief in no god" rather than "doesn't believe in god" in order to have a logical basis for their bullshit arguments against them.


Lack. Of. Belief. - as has been said, a state of being religious people find hard to understand.


I'm NOT agnostic. I DON'T fit your definition of atheist. I lack belief. Period.

 

[Krazeh]

i'll say it again. there are two terms, atheist who firmly belive there is NO GOD and agnostics woh dont think about it/ dont care/ havent decided ect ect

not many people are really atheist, most are agnostic

I don't believe there is no god but I have thought about it, I do care and have decided that I don't believe there is a god. So according to your 'definitions' what am i?

 

[old.Tohtori]

I don't believe there is no god but I have thought about it, I do care and have decided that I don't believe there is a god. So according to your 'definitions' what am i?

Clearly a jedist.

 

[gohan]

i dont really get what you're saying, i don't believe there is a god and i believe there is no god is the same sentance rearranged. both are saying that you posess no belief in god or gods. it's like saying i don't belive in santa, or i believe there is no santa, both are exactly the same......


unless ofc by i don't believe in god you mean you aknowledge his exsistance but don't think he's up to the job

 

[gohan]

I don't believe there is no god but I have thought about it, I do care and have decided that I don't believe there is a god. So according to your 'definitions' what am i?

a retard?
that sentance is an oxymoron, you cant believe there is no god while at the same time not believe that.......

 

[Krazeh]

i dont really get what you're saying, i don't believe there is a god and i believe there is no god is the same sentance rearranged. both are saying that you posess no belief in god or gods. it's like saying i don't belive in santa, or i believe there is no santa, both are exactly the same......

Err, no. Not believing in a god is a lack of belief in the existence of god. Believing there is no god is having the belief that god does not exist. They may sound similar but they're definitely not. I don't believe in the existence or non-existence of god, I have a complete lack of belief.

that sentance is an oxymoron, you cant believe there is no god while at the same time not believe that.......

Except that's not what I said. You should try understanding what people have written before you try insulting their intelligence.

 

[gohan]

Err, no. Not believing in a god is a lack of belief in the existence of god. Believing there is no god is having the belief that god does not exist. They may sound similar but they're definitely not. I don't believe in the existence or non-existence of god, I have a complete lack of belief.



Except that's not what I said. You should try understanding what people have written before you try insulting their intelligence.

if you have a lack of belief but aren't completely against the idea of a god then you're agnostic...... i don't see what's hard to grasp about that, atheists firmly believe there is no god, and genrally believe in science ect. if you're not religious but aren't fundamentally agiast the notion of god then you're agnostic, simples

 

[old.Tohtori]

Ignore the wording gohan, they are the same thing, just rearranged to fit either side.

 

[Krazeh]

if you have a lack of belief but aren't completely against the idea of a god then you're agnostic...... i don't see what's hard to grasp about that, atheists firmly believe there is no god, and genrally believe in science ect. if you're not religious but aren't fundamentally agiast the notion of god then you're agnostic, simples

So people like Richard Dawkins are actually agnostic and have just been confused all this time that they were in fact atheist? I'm about as agnostic about god as I am about fairies.

 

[gohan]

no idea who richard dawkins is. but feel free to look it uo, i'm just giving you the definition of a word that's already in use, i didn't invent it. I you accept the possibility that there may be a God but don't acctaully have a religous view then you're agnostic, an atheist wouldn't aknowledge any possiblity of god....

 

[gohan]

Ignore the wording gohan, they are the same thing, just rearranged to fit either side.

I know, I don't belive in god and I believe there is no god is infact the same sentance..... may not be how they mean to get across what they're saying but those sentances carry the same meaning. Pointless to argue about it though, if they can't see that it's the exact same meaning then it's a lost cause.

 

[Krazeh]

no idea who richard dawkins is. but feel free to look it uo, i'm just giving you the definition of a word that's already in use, i didn't invent it. I you accept the possibility that there may be a God but don't acctaully have a religous view then you're agnostic, an atheist wouldn't aknowledge any possiblity of god....

Richard Dawkins is an extemely well known atheist and has written several books and participated in numerous events/debates about religion/faith etc. Agnosticism is a position on the ability to know whether or not god exists. If you're agnostic you're saying that you don't know if god exists or doesn't exist. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I have no basis on which to believe god does exist and as far as i'm concerned his existence is no different to that of fairies or goblins or dragons. The fact that I don't hold the belief that god definitely does not exist does not mean that i'm not atheist as there's no requirement to hold that belief in order to be atheist. Atheism merely requires a lack of belief in the existence of god. You can take it further and also hold the belief that god definitely doesn't exist but that's an individual choice.

To be honest the problem stems from the fact that gnosticism/agnosticism and theism/atheism deal with two separate issues, i.e. knowledge and belief. Being agnostic doesn't rule you out from being a theist or atheist nor does being atheist rule you out from being gnostic or agnostic. And the same applies for gnostic and theist.

I know, I don't belive in god and I believe there is no god is infact the same sentance..... may not be how they mean to get across what they're saying but those sentances carry the same meaning. Pointless to argue about it though, if they can't see that it's the exact same meaning then it's a lost cause.

We can't see it's the exact same meaning because it's not the same meaning. One is a lack of belief, one is a belief. They're different things. You can tell that by the way one says 'I don't believe' and the other says 'I believe'.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well to be fair it's just a bunch of wording crock and has no real meaning in the grand scheme of things, otuside trying to distance people from eachother regarding viewpoints.

 

[Raven]

The thing is, it isn't a belief that god doesn't exist. It's a knowing that it is as likely (to use a previous example) that god exists as it is likely that the Klingon gods exist.

I don't understand why it needs a label, Atheist, Agnostic blah blah. It seems the religious types need to have a name for it so they can fit it to their way of seeing things.

Obviously I know what the dictionary meaning of both words is but most Atheists aren't a sort of anti-believer or a polar opposite of a believer...they are just normal, logical people.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Agree on the label part, but there's guilt in that on all sides. Basic human need to put people in sections, us vs them etc.

They are ALL normal people, just with different viewpoints/lifestyles.

 

[Scouse]

i dont really get what you're saying, i don't believe there is a god and i believe there is no god is the same sentance rearranged

Y'see gohan. I'm willing to accept that you *honestly* don't get it. But I'm also willing to think that you do get it, but you deny it.

It's simple, I'll explain it without malice one last time, as comprehensively and simply as I can do it:

The verb "to believe" is, as you were taught in primary school, a "doing word". It has an action attached - the action called "believing".

The two sentences below are massively different:

1.[Your definition]: I believe there is no god

2.[My definition]: I don't believe in god


In 1. an action is being performed by the person who makes the statement. They are saying they perform the action of believing - and the thing they believe in is the "absence of a deity".

In 2. no action is being performed. It is actually the denial of performing the action believing.


If you're struggling with the concept of someone saying they do [something], as opposed to someone saying they don't do [something] then here's a very simple example:

1.[Equivalent of your definition]: I drink tea
2.[Equivalent of my definition]: I don't drink tea

Here the "doing word" is "drinking".

In relation to the tea:

In 1. the person is stating that they perform the action of drinking.
In 2. the person is stating that they don't perform the action of drinking.


If you're lost by this, or decide that it's semantics rather than a massive massive difference, then you can never be helped.


The verb to believe is, according to the dictionary:

be·lieve
verb
1.to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so

I deny that I perform the action of believing in a god.

I deny that I perform the action of believing that there is NO god.

I simply do not perform the action of believing. Full stop.


This is an almost alien concept for many "believers" to grasp (and they're called "believers" because they all do something in common - perform the action of beliving). It's a completely different reality to them and something they fail to grasp, in the same way that we can't actually imagine what it's like to suffer from a mental illness.


They're not the same sentence rearranged, they're massively massively radically different. If you can't (or won't) see that difference there is no point continuing this...

 

[old.Tohtori]

I don't not think that this doesn't isn't some serious pedantic wordcrock with not no real point to it.

But it's fun to see that Scouse finally admits that he doesn't deny the existence of god, just that he's not believing in one. (waits for spin and backpeddle)

 

[Krazeh]

But it's fun to see that Scouse finally admits that he doesn't deny the existence of god, just that he's not believing in one. (waits for spin and backpeddle)

Where has he previously said that he does deny the existence of god? I might have missed it but i'm sure he's always taken the position that he doesn't believe in god without making a definitive statement that god doesn't exist.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Where has he previously said that he does deny the existence of god? I might have missed it but i'm sure he's always taken the position that he doesn't believe in god without making a definitive statement that god doesn't exist.

Oh just wait, telling scouse that he doesn't deny the possibility of a god is like a red flag infront of a bull. He will twist his own wordss to make it "not so".

 

[Scouse]

Where has he previously said that he does deny the existence of god? I might have missed it but i'm sure he's always taken the position that he doesn't believe in god without making a definitive statement that god doesn't exist.

Thanks Krazeh.

You're right. I don't believe in god.

I also deny the existence of a god on balance of probabilities, as I suspect you do to.

I suspect we both understand that it's as impossible to totally prove the non-existence of god as it is to prove the non-existence of the invisible pink unicorn. But neither of us are retarded enough to fall into that trap.

Of course, to hold our points of view, and not be suceptible to accusations of hypocricy, we must also hold the view that we would be happy to admit our mistake - change our minds and admit the existence of god - if people produce conclusive evidence for his existence.

I, personally, am happy to do that.

Here's to waiting for some evidence that there's a god, eh, Krazeh

 

[Wij]

One look at my incredible penis will persuade you!!!

 

[Scouse]

One look at my incredible penis will persuade you!!!

Surely that's the work of an all-powerful deity! Hallelujah! I admit my mistake! Off to hell with me for the all-magma all-burning all-eternity action!


It'd be nice for Gohan to respond to the post before my eternity in hell though...

 

[old.Tohtori]

You're right. I don't believe in god.

And there's the hypocrisy, no matter how you deny it.

You infact do the action of not believing in god.

 

[Scouse]

And there's the hypocrisy, no matter how you deny it.

You infact do the action of not believing in god.

Well done I'll bite.

How is NOT [doing an action] = [doing an action]

?

 

[old.Tohtori]

In the context you represent, easy. Saying you don't believe in god, or that you don't believe there's a god, is the same f*cking thing.

What you're trying to say is that you're a special snowflake who can say the following;

"Do you believe in god?"
"No."
"So you don't believe in god?"
"Wrong."
"You're agnostic then?"
"No, i'm special."

 

[Krazeh]

Believing in something is an action, if you don't do that action then you don't believe. Lack of belief is not a separate action. If you were to believe that god didn't exist however then that would be an action.

 

[Scouse]

Toht = Trolling Fail

Saying you don't believe in god, or that you don't believe there's a god, is the same f*cking thing

I agree 100%.

Saying "I don't believe in god" and "I don't believe there's a god" is exactly the same thing.



Edit (just so he doesn't accuse me of cherry picking):

"Do you believe in god?"
"No." << True, I said this
"So you don't believe in god?"
"Wrong." << Incorrect - I admit - I don't believe in god
"You're agnostic then?"
"No, i'm special." << Incorrect. I am not undecided

Again,

Believing in something is an action, if you don't do that action then you don't believe. Lack of belief is not a separate action. If you were to believe that god didn't exist however then that would be an action.

This. But it's already explained amazingly clearly directly above (and in myriad other threads).

Wonder when he'll trot out the "it's not my first language" line...?

 

[old.Tohtori]

I deny that I perform the action of believing that there is NO god.

It's your logic that fails, because it's the same thing as "i don't believe in god", especially since you say that there's no action in not believing in god.

So if there's no action, you can only believe or not, but there's no special section of it.

To use your moronic tea comparison;

People drink tea.
People don't drink tea.

There's no action of not drinking tea, this special sort of people you think exist that actively are not drinking tea.

 

[Scouse]

It's your logic that fails, because it's the same thing as "i don't believe in god", especially since you say that there's no action in not believing in god.

So if there's no action, you can only believe or not, but there's no special section of it.

Toht, has your IQ dropped?

Go back up and read the thread again. You've been answered multiple times - and if you read your own quote above you'll find you've actually answered yourself.

Edit: Ah, more:

To use your moronic tea comparison;

People drink tea.
People don't drink tea.

There's no action of not drinking tea

You're right. There is no action of "not drinking" tea. That's why I posted it.

, this special sort of people you think exist that actively are not drinking tea.

I've never said anything of the sort. The exact opposite in fact. YOU don't get it, or aer mah00sive tr0llz...

Methinks second possibility is correct...