News Crazy UK Student Costs!

[MYstIC G]

Sorry but I simply don't share that view. That puts the costs onto business and by that logic, why have university anyway? Why not just make every employer run their own tests? The answer I subscribe to is that common standards are useful, however they're nowhere near as useful if everyone has them.

 

[tris-]

i dont think there is any specialised job that doesnt employ some kind of testing procedure.

my mate has a P.hD, with research in to high voltage electronics and electrical engineering, and he still had to do tests to get his current job at rolls royce. this was just a direct entry job too, not one of those graduate scheme bullshit things.

why have university? well like you say, it standardises the knowledge people have and some things you just cant teach your self. its all fine and dandy being a professional photographer without a degree. you can learn those things your self. how does someone teach them selves to be a pharmacist or a solicitor?

 

[MYstIC G]

I'd rather we had no solicitors

Being serious again though, I'd actually rather have a system where only someone exceptionally capable was able to be a pharmacist.

 

[tris-]

I'd rather we had no solicitors

Being serious again though, I'd actually rather have a system where only someone exceptionally capable was able to be a pharmacist.

they must have this ability though i think. not just any university can provide the course. it has to be recognised by the royal pharmaceutical society of great britain. then the student has to work for a year, and then pass a registration exam for the society. you cant be a pharmacist without doing all that.

i think you must have a few lights switched on upstairs to do all that.

 

[Jupitus]

I think the problem is that it has become politically incorrect to differentiate thick people.

 

[rynnor]

Degrees are good things. However our system is bullshit. If you give everyone a degree they're worthless. Our current system doesn't let the "crem da la crem" rise to the top, it mixes them in with everyone else so those with half a brain can feel as smart as those with a brain. To me the best part of a degree however is that is shows a willingness to be educated.

Ok - two different arguements here - lets take the first one:

Universal degree's = worthless

Historically only the richest (note - not the brightest) kids went to University - obviously degree's had a scarcity value then but is that really the ideal we want to aproach?

No matter what the Govt does you will never end up with everyone having a degree - it requires a certain level of intelligence and the ability to stick it out for 3 years - these are not universal qualities.

The reason Governments want a highly educated workforce is because we do not exist in a vacuum - the UK is in competition internationally to attract the high skill/high value industries to invest here.

There is also the problem that we lack opportunities for the unskilled/un-educated nowadays unless you pack em all off to the armed forces - its in the best interests of society that everyone who has the ability gets the education to use it properly in their jobs.

Your 2nd arguement about the best being lost in the noise is more applicable to A-levels than degree's - A-levels have been dumbed down undisputably but I dont believe degree's have.

This has caused real problems on some courses - the lecturers on my mates Electrical Engineering course were always despairing that they had to spend much of the first year teaching students what they should have learned during their A-levels but due to the reduction of coverage in most A-levels they had no choice.

 

[rynnor]

I think the problem is that it has become politically incorrect to differentiate thick people.

Actually I think we probably fail them as badly as the bright kids.

The Socialist doctrine that pervades education has meant that there has been encouragement to close all the remedial schools and integrate those kids into mainstream schools.

It must be devastating for them to be surrounded by kids who find everything (relatively) easy and where they will fail to get sufficient support.

The same applies to the bright kids (in reverse) - hopefully the Conservatives might actually start sorting this out.

 

[MYstIC G]

Rynnor, to answer your first post. No. Desirable is scarcity by ability not by affordability, i.e. we should learn from our history or be doomed to repeat it. Other than that I think Jup summarised it better. There's nothing wrong with not going to University.

 

[tris-]

of course not. but it is impossible to get in to some jobs without doing so.

 

[rynnor]

There's nothing wrong with not going to University.

If you dont mind limiting your options...

Every year more and more decent jobs make a degree an entry requirement - I would reccomend everyone who isnt lucky enough to get into a great job that doesnt require one to consider Uni.

 

[Tom]

Perhaps Tom, but are you the average person without a degree or are you the exception? And would a degree have helped you do your job better? Or does a degree grant you a proficiency at your job?

Neither of my parents have a degree, and they have hit glass ceilings plenty of times. I seem to recall my mum getting turned down for a job solely based on the fact that that she had no degree, but had been doing the same type of work for a gigantic multinational for 10 years.

Like Chilly, I'd be surprised if I wasn't in the top 20 as well, and just the same, you'd need my exact degree, or a very similar one, to do my job. Or you'd need to have worked for 7-8 years doing similar stuff. It's definitely possible, but not at age 24. More than anything, having a degree opened doors that were not there before.

A degree wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference. What I do cannot be learnt in the classroom, it has to be learnt by experience - which is the case for a great many jobs.

Right now what limits me is living in Manchester. If I lived in London, I could probably double my workload. I'm quite happy here though.

 

[Jupitus]

It's bullshit.

What is wrong with a system whereby:

Brainy folks go to uni, thick folks do not. Of the folks that go to uni, the really brainy get a 1st, the others get less. Those middle ground folks go to a different form of higher education, lets call it a polytechnic, to get added training or education in certain fields which can help equip them for the working environment. Employers can seek to employ really brainy 1st uni grads for lots of dosh, brainy 2nd or other grads for a bit less, poly students a bit less again, and thick folks at the bottom of the scale. The courses are difficult to pass at appropriate levels meaning only the best succeed.

Call me old fashioned if you like, but this namby pamby molly coddled environment of saying to all people regardless of ability that they are 'doing great' and 'succeeding' by making exams easier, turning polytechnics into universities, not segregating the really stupid kids is causing the problems.

Brainy folk have more to offer an employer usually, so they are more productive and the company gets more for their money, hence they should earn more.

Thick people should earn less.

Really thick people who interbreed and live off benefits are just *****.

 

[Tom]

The idea isn't necessarily to give the less-intelligent people a degree - its to give opportunities to those too poor to normally consider further education.

Wealth and intelligence aren't always linked.

 

[Chilly]

I think we'd be better off if you paid for your education, so that when you're gloating about how much you earn a few years later (see several of the posts on this thread) at least you know you paid for it yourself.

I am paying for my fucking education. I just dont think it's reasonable to expect a 20 year old to have 30 or 40 grand to hand to pay up front. I now pay tax and will continue to do so at a rate that will more than pay for my education and some others - and I'm happy to do it.

 

[rynnor]

Brainy folks go to uni, thick folks do not.

It never worked like that - before grants it was only the richest going to Uni - NOT the smartest.

Less intelligent rich kids always went to Uni regardless - with enough extra tuition, old school tie networks etc. they would get a place pretty much automatically despite their shortcomings.

It took years to break down the class divide - do we really want to build it up again with stupidly high fees?

 

[Chilly]

It never worked like that - before grants it was only the richest going to Uni - NOT the smartest.

Less intelligent rich kids always went to Uni regardless - with enough extra tuition, old school tie networks etc. they would get a place pretty much automatically despite their shortcomings.

It took years to break down the class divide - do we really want to build it up again with stupidly high fees?

You think the class divide has been broken? You clearly are far into the lower classes

 

[rynnor]

You think the class divide has been broken? You clearly are far into the lower classes

Lol - thanks I think - no its not entirely broken but its a hell of a lot better than it was.

 

[SilverHood]

Rynnor, to answer your first post. No. Desirable is scarcity by ability not by affordability, i.e. we should learn from our history or be doomed to repeat it. Other than that I think Jup summarised it better. There's nothing wrong with not going to University.

The option to go to university should be available to all those who wish to further better themselves, regardless of ability. However, there should be no government targets. And if you wish to further yourself in a field that does not offer a clear advantage to the UK taxpayer at the end of it, then you should have to pay for it.

My A-levels are far from spectacular (too much DAOC), but since they were worthless trash, it didn't turn out so bad in the end. First day of uni, I was told "forget everything you learned in your A-levels", and that suited me well enough

Everyone can have degrees, but lets be honest, it's the interview that gets you hired. Or personal contacts. A degree just gets you to the interview. My first work assignment, I interviewed for over 6 hours with a client. Brutal. But I knew my stuff and was shipped off to Manhattan as soon as my visa came through. Second assignment, I knew the person being replaced. Interview was a 10 minute formality.

While A levels are just a hoops for getting into uni, a degree is expected to leave you with something useful at the end. Or at least, that's my impression.

You think the class divide has been broken? You clearly are far into the lower classes

It still exists, yes. but University offers a way out for those without rich parents. That said, these fee increases will likely hurt the middle class more than anyone else. The poor go to uni for free anyway. The rich don't care about the cost, daddy is paying.

 

[Chilly]

Heh a guy ust joined my team at work is the son of an earl, and he's my bitch. Class divide my arse I asked him what position in line for the throne he was last night down the boozer and he got all embarrassed. Not many people can give a meaningful answer to that question

 

[Jeros]

Another important thing is that uni can elevate a working class person up to the middle class or beyond in some cases depending on how much they earn.

Part of the reason im going to uni is so that i can provide my children (when i have them) a nice middle class lifestyle in australia, being majorly poor for years and years in the uk does that do a person....,

 

[throdgrain]

God almighty.

 

[Jeros]

God almighty.

What?

My bro has many millions (well he would he sold all his houses and flats) and a extremely well paid job thanks to what he learnt in university....

My exs parents started living in a council house on a estate in my home town, now they have a custom built house near the beach in Oz with a boat to boot thanks to the education they gained in later life....

University is not for everyone sure, the benefits are huge if you work hard and are not afraid to take your skills abroad.

On the subject of "class divide" as mentioned above, it does exist, but with a system in place that does not price people out of education people can move up it as Silverhood stated. It should be about ability, not wealth. Oh and abolish private schools while we are at it!

 

[Jeros]

Oh and thod regarding what you posted before about paying for it, i have paid my taxes since leaving school, i have put my share into this system.

 

[throdgrain]

God almighty.

Again.

 

[gunner440]

Brainy folk have more to offer an employer usually, so they are more productive and the company gets more for their money, hence they should earn more.

:worthy::worthy::worthy::worthy:

 

[00dave]

The option to go to university should be available to all those who wish to further better themselves, regardless of ability. However, there should be no government targets. And if you wish to further yourself in a field that does not offer a clear advantage to the UK taxpayer at the end of it, then you should have to pay for it.

I honestly thought that this was the case. You want to study nursing and become a nurse then your course will cost you next to nothing. You want to study sociology and realise you can't actually get a job as a sociologist then end up working at burger king, well you can bloody well pay for that degree yourself.

 

[Chilly]

God almighty.

Again.

at least explain yourself you grumpy old ****

 

[Talivar]

So what do u propose Throdgrain. Lets pretend we all accept uni is pointless and remove it, what do we then do with the hundreds of thousands of people who would have gone there and how do we find new doctors and other jobs that are highly specialised. Do we just throw them in at deep end and let them learn on the job? Hi im Talivar its my 1st day learning about medicine and im going to perform surgery on you pls dont be worried!, or maybe when you visit your local GP there can be 50 other starter doctors ll sat in room with you. Some jobs NEED a lot of knowledge before you can even think about attempting them.
You probally say uni isnt the problem its the fact you pay taxes for it that is, so lets keep uni and just not pay student loans anymore. All of a sudden none of the lower classes can go to uni, pretty quick all available jobs will be snapped up and you will be left with thousands and thousands of young people with no prospect at all, many will turn to crime as a way of making money or just as a FU to the country they feel hates them. So when you walking home and beaten to a pulp for your wallet every week or so you can say to yourself least i didnt have to pay taxes for uni courses!.

 

[MYstIC G]

Oh no, the world isn't equal and not everyone has a fair go... why did nobody tell me!

 

[Talivar]

No the world isnt equal but that doesnt mean we shouldnt try to make it so.