News Crazy UK Student Costs!

[throdgrain]

Lets face it, students are mostly a waste of fucking space. I'm supposed to pay for them to spend years doing nonsense degrees that they eventually fail anyway, just to make the unemployment figures look better.

Most of them just need to get a fucking job quite honestly.

 

[Jeros]

Lets face it, students are mostly a waste of fucking space. I'm supposed to pay for them to spend years doing nonsense degrees that they eventually fail anyway, just to make the unemployment figures look better.

Most of them just need to get a fucking job quite honestly.

Fail

The reason im at university is due to being exploited for 80 quid a week with no training in a so called "apprenticeship" and working 6 odd years in other minimum wage or so jobs!

And some of these "nonsense" subjects pay VERY well. Does it annoy you that somone can do a "micky mouse" subject and land a 30k or more job with the goverment?

If it pays lots then its hardly a "nonsense" doing the degree!

 

[rynnor]

Lets face it, students are mostly a waste of fucking space.

Based on what exactly - or is this your opinion of pretty much the rest of humanity?

You sound like one of those stereotypical old people 'Mmm, young people today etc. etc' - are you afraid of young people or do people with degree's make you feel inferior because thats exactly what it sounds like?

 

[throdgrain]

The reason you're at university is so you can say "fail" a lot, you idiot.

I really don't want to pay for it though.

Oh and Rynnor, you're 37 according to your profile. Are you still at university avoiding doing any work or do you just style yourself as champion for young people ?

 

[rynnor]

Oh and Rynnor, you're 37 according to your profile. Are you still at university avoiding doing any work or do you just style yourself as champion for young people ?

I have worked all my life from 16 apart from 3 years doing a degree and tbh I prefer working to studying since its a lot easier on the brain and you get paid lots of lovely money

It saddens me to see how badly students are perceived - one thing I did agree with in the CBI report was the idea to compress degree courses from 3years to 2.

That would make it a lot cheaper to do a degree even if you doubled the fees since living costs are such a big chunk of your costs - it would also mean you only lose 2 years of income rather than 3.

I'm not some champion of young people but I do have 3 kids and an expectation that some of them (maybe all) will end up at University.

I also find it very short sighted for a 40 something like yourself not to want a good crop of young taxpayers coming through - who do you think will pay the taxes to provide you with services when your in retirement?

 

[Ormorof]

It wasn't luck, it was walking into a armed forces careers office and going through with it all. I personally think the experiences and qualification I gained from the forces are worth more than a lot of uni degrees. But admittedly it's not for everyone.

Going back to my original point about apprenticeships and a point Rynnor raised about there not being enough industries to support apprenticeship schemes. With all due respect I think you're wrong because there are hundreds of jobs out there that we've probably never heard of that require people to train in.

and the qualifications and experiences gain at university are therfore worthless because you joined the RAF and are therefore better? what a load of crap

university (and i know i am going to get flamed for this from all the "waste of space" people) is not just about learning how to do A or how to build B or whatever, hell half of it is learning how to live majority who go to university have never lived away from home, and if they started work from 16 or 18 or whatever they probably would stay at home for a hell of a lot longer, now, the wonderful student loan you then get is a massive boost, not just for you (it allows you to pay tuition and in most cases rent for the year leaving a little left over for other things like food ), which is wonderful for the economy, lots of students spending lots of money, spreads money out all over the country, hell places like Hull and Newcastle are practically propped up by the amount the university spends, hiring people, the rent paid by those people, the rent paid by all the thousands of students, the money those students spend (and even the money spent in local shops by all the bloody hippys who hate tesco)

so, its costing the government yes, but as long as the money flows it eventually ends up collected in tax anyway, whether its from student loan repayments or the higher taxband the majority of graduates end up in.

now regarding more info opportunities post degree i totally agree, having a degree in a subject does not guarantee you a career path to do with that degree at all, but what it does say is that you are capable of learning, which is brilliant for employers, it shows you arent a complete moron but will in general be able to pick things up pretty quick (cos if you dont at uni you tend to fail), this means you take less time to train (meaning it saves them money) and thus gets you earning them money quicker (again good), also it means with training and experience you'll probably be able to move up the ladder quicker (generally people with degrees progress faster in the big ol' corporate structure than people without).

errr rambled a bit there where was i.... oh yes... clarity on degrees, for example it should be made clear to people that studying "media studies" is not going to make you a journalist, to do anything, to get anywhere you need to be driven like crazy to do it (and if you cant do that yourself post uni you could end up stuck in a dead end job).


phew longest post on freddys i've made in a while i think

 

[00dave]

and the qualifications and experiences gain at university are therfore worthless because you joined the RAF and are therefore better? what a load of crap

University obviously failed you then, reread my posts and try again, context is everything

 

[MYstIC G]

Wow Scouse, you're a smug prick arn't you?

I disagree with a lot of what the CBI has said but I do believe their point about paying back student loans quicker is valid. They should also be more like a loan with a higher rate of interest imo.

Obvious troll is obvious.

 

[Garaen]

I'm not really sure what the means Mystic G, but thanks for the valuble input to the thread. Scouse was out of line with that post and I felt it needed to be said.

 

[Pfy]

Graduate pay by subject | Good University Guide - Times Online

Top figure is with a degree, bottom without. Whether huge debt is worth a couple of grand extra a year is worth it I don't think so.

I don't have a degree and earn a decent enough wage, yes, I sometimes think Uni would have been fun, but only for beering, I personally don't see any real benefit that it would have granted me.

Graduate 
 Non-graduate 
 
1 
 Medicine 
 £31,079 
 - 
 
2 
 Dentistry 
 £27,865 
 - 
 
3 
 General Engineering 
 £23,169 
 £15,620 
 
4 
 Economics 
 £23,060 
 £15,906 
 
5 
 Veterinary Medicine 
 £22,498 
 £16,333 
 
6 
 Mechanical Engineering 
 £21,331 
 £15,814 
 
7 
 Mathematics 
 £20,898 
 £14,493 
 
8 
 Physics & Astronomy 
 £20,538 
 £13,398 
 
9 
 Civil Engineering 
 £20,466 
 £13,471 
 
10 
 Nursing 
 £20,383 
 £18,500 
 
11 
 Electrical & Electronic Engineering 
 £20,355 
 £14,977 
 
12 
 Computer Science 
 £20,148 
 £15,580 
 
13 
 Business Studies 
 £19,374 
 £15,054 
 
14 
 Education 
 £19,359 
 £12,624 
 
15 
 Politics 
 £19,342 
 £13,882 
 
16 
 German 
 £19,248 
 £14,330 
 
17 
 Accounting & Finance 
 £18,846 
 £15,023 
 
18 
 Chemistry 
 £18,523 
 £13,271 
 
19 
 French 
 £18,443 
 £14,715 
 
20 
 History 
 £18,292 
 £13,346 
 
21 
 Geology 
 £17,856 
 £13,809 
 
22 
 Law 
 £17,831 
 £14,137 
 
23 
 Geography 
 £17,751 
 £13,371 
 
24 
 Music 
 £17,695 
 £13,254 
 
25 
 Iberian Languages 
 £17,537 
 £15,078 
 
26 
 Sociology 
 £17,235 
 £13,649 
 
27 
 English 
 £17,229 
 £13,247 
 
28 
 Biological Sciences 
 £16,871 
 £13,240 
 
29 
 Hospitality, Leisure, Recreation Sport and Tourism 
 £16,837 
 £13,690 
 
30 
 Psychology 
 £16,697 
 £13,473 
 
31 
 Art & Design 
 £16,218 
 £12,726 
 
32 
 Drama, Dance >& Cinematics 
 £16,082 
 £13,152

 

[Tom]

And some of these "nonsense" subjects pay VERY well. Does it annoy you that somone can do a "micky mouse" subject and land a 30k or more job with the goverment?

Who do you think pays for that job 'with the government'—the government? Or the private sector, and their tax bill?

 

[SilverHood]

Mmm, interesting figures. But they are averages.
Computer Science
£20,148

I have a Business IT degree and I'd seriously think twice about getting out of bed for that salary. If I was living in London, forget about it.

Show me a list of pay for the top 20% of top graduates and the average non graduate pay and you'll see the true value of a degree. For the average pleb, it doesn't make much of a difference. If you have brains, ability to think on your feet and drive, then there's no limit to what you can achieve. Assuming your degree taught you something useful, anyway.

 

[Pfy]

I have a Business IT degree and I'd seriously think twice about getting out of bed for that salary.

You'd rather be unemployed?

Top 20% doesn't give a good representation though, does it?

Not everyone (obviously) will be in the top 20% so to use that as a comparison is poop. You're basically wanting to base the top tier of a gradute pay to an average for a non graduate. Squiffy figures imho.

Anyway, I don't think a degree is worthless, I just don't think it's worth as much as it once was. Surely when a vast number of people become degree educated, having a degree becomes less valued.

 

[00dave]

Yeah I never understood that saying, it always sounded a bit pompous.

 

[Pfy]

Yeah I never understood that saying, it always sounded a bit pompous.

Of course it is, but I think generally it's used more to emphasise (sp?) than as an actual truthful statement. Personally, I'd work to make whatever I needed to look after my own! Anyway, free value meals for lunch sound nice!

 

[pcg79]

I'm fresh out of university and I can see no issue with increased re-payment of loan, as it stands the 9% payback rate is so small ...

uh, what is this 'payback rate'?

now:
IMO
there are WAY too many bullshit degrees, too many people going to university. 50%? bloody jesus. common sense people - degrees are MEANT to be a demonstrator of academic excellence: an indication that the degree holder is able to process large amounts of complex information, analyse it and come up with some valuable conclusions. a degree in golf management does not do this.

if it was my way, only the top ~15%? maybe 20% would go to university (im picking these figures out of my arse so maybe more/less). ie a much lower percentage of youngsters. moreover, there would be tighter guidelines on what constitutes a degree (a simple acid test would be 'how many words are in the course title?' - more than 1 word and its borderline. eg mathematics (Y), architecture (Y), politics (Y), business information technology (N), golf management (N)). this does not comprise a limitation on studied fields - sciences + arts are both important.

on the subject of fees - costs are obviously an issue. no one wants to pay for education though, and thats the problem. someone has to. particularly if its going to be of any decent quality, fees will probably have to go up. i think at the moment, a lot of university income is from overseas students tuition fees - obvs this is probably not sustainable (especially if more home students go to these institutions on the cheap).

so fees will have to go up? thats gonna smash the middle classes a smidge but they should be alright - the long term benefits of a more rigorously taught education system has got to be a sensible bet?
poorer students should get more subsidies (paid in part by the fees of fee-paying students).
certainly i think raising rates could be a bad idea, but bigger loans at rates a little above inflation are necessary if fees go up

finally, with the 80% not going to uni in pcg-land, well there should be lots more ranges of education available. ranging from, not quite degree for subjects a little too academically lightweight to count as academically hardcore (business info tech??).. all the way through to vocational stuff.

coincidental with this though, needs to be some kind of revival of manufacturing. probably not on the scales of the past, but deffo need some more talented artisans/craftsmen actually MAKING stuff. actually, any/more industries that arent the financial services (40% of gdp?!)

 

[SilverHood]

Right now, there's little chance of me being unemployed. I could walk out of my job today and be in a new one on Monday. Everyone on my course got snapped up pretty quickly.

Anyway, I don't think a degree is worthless, I just don't think it's worth as much as it once was. Surely when a vast number of people become degree educated, having a degree becomes less valued.

Right, so we need to distinguish between the graduates because everyone is a graduate these days. Top 20% is a decent enough benchmark. Add in bottom 20%. Put those 4 figures next to each other and you will see the true value of a degree. A top Comp Sci graduate will be able to earn 25-27k easily, 30k+ is not out of the question. The difference between that an the average is 7-10k.

A top English grad might earn (I have no idea, lets say 22k). A difference of 4,800 between the top and the average.

So if you're truly gifted, and you look at those figures, right now, it seems that Medicine is by far the best choice if you want to base your choice solely on pay. Show the top pay you can get with each degree and you'd find that it's probably a lot more even because the masses with their degrees are dragging the average pay down. Combine this with the fact that most jobs these days require a degree. Any degree, despite not being degree level work.

I'd recommend anyone who is looking at uni to then ask themselves, can I get these top jobs when I'm done. If not, how average am I? And does the average pay justify the time spent on a degree?

For the 12,000 or so debt I have, then yes, very worth it. If that same degree was costing 20,000, then maybe still worth it. For the 40,000+ that the government wants people to get into debt for now? I don't think so.

 

[SilverHood]

uh, what is this 'payback rate'?


finally, with the 80% not going to uni in pcg-land, well there should be lots more ranges of education available. ranging from, not quite degree for subjects a little too academically lightweight to count as academically hardcore (business info tech??).. all the way through to vocational stuff.

coincidental with this though, needs to be some kind of revival of manufacturing. probably not on the scales of the past, but deffo need some more talented artisans/craftsmen actually MAKING stuff. actually, any/more industries that arent the financial services (40% of gdp?!)

Payback rate is how you back your student loan these days. It's done through PAYE at a 9% rate of your income, taken at the same time as NI and Income tax.

Anyway, nail on the head there.

There's a severe gap between college and uni. What about the in between?

I'm talking about Technical Colleges, Business Schools, etc that teach practical stuff while being lightweight on the academic material compared to a Bachelor degree. Instead of a 3-4 year degree, you could maybe do a 1 year quick and dirty course in business, some form of engineering or IT. 36 hours a week in a given subject is sure to teach something, and if they want to take it further, then university is there for them. What the businesses in the UK desperately need are people with skills - real tangible skills and abilities that can be put to use as soon as the person starts a job.

Yeah I never understood that saying, it always sounded a bit pompous.

Pompous, probably, but the truth none the less. The cost of going to work plus pay versus going on the dole. The number on the left needs to be bigger than the one on the right. (Note, I've never been on the dole).

 

[Ormorof]

i would also like to point out that those figures concern "leavers" salaries, a leaver being defined as someone who has been in university in the last few years meaning they are entry-level graduate salaries, which seem pretty reasonable (though very high for medicine i guess)

also it doesn't define if its a masters course or a bachelors, a bachelor graduate in most science courses with no experience isnt going to be paid jack all until the masters comes through, whereas thats probably different for arts subjects.

and seeing as the student loan is in fact an extremely cheap loan its well worth it (despite being £20k in debt, paying it off at £30 a month might take many years but theres no point paying it off early because you dont need to) especially for those who started before 2005 who because they were in before the law was changed always have interest charged at the rate of inflation meaning they now have a negative interest on their loan (so its going down at the moment even if nothing is paid on it) whereas all those after 2005 have it "capped" at 0% interest meaning that its frozen until inflation goes back up.

the problem with only allowing 15% of people to go to university would be you would have all the jobs that NEED training, such as programming, industrial chemists, engineers, hell even advertising execs, stock brokers etc those jobs and companys work on margins, if it costs them less to import someone from abroad who has already done the training through a degree program than it would to spend 2-3 years training someone else then they will do that! and that goes for anything! for some jobs all it takes is 2-3 weeks basic training then the rest can be learnt hands-on, but some jobs rely on some theory for you to be able to not just do your job well but to understand WHY what you are doing is done well as opposed to badly rather than it being done "because thats the way it is", this allows growth, creativity and improvement to existing method leading to ta da improvement of civilization

the more people have a better education the better, of course im not advocating degrees like "David Beckham studies" which would be useless unless you happen to be David Beckhams PR manager or something, but believe it or not, most degrees have a use somewhere, even if its just as a foot in the door to something else (i know people who couldnt get into Medicine at uni first time round so they did a BA in Psychology to get in, does that cheapen the degree? no because in the long term it will help them further in their further studies and probably their lives than a few extra UCAS points ever would.

 

[Chilly]

You'd rather be unemployed?

Top 20% doesn't give a good representation though, does it?

Not everyone (obviously) will be in the top 20% so to use that as a comparison is poop. You're basically wanting to base the top tier of a gradute pay to an average for a non graduate. Squiffy figures imho.

Anyway, I don't think a degree is worthless, I just don't think it's worth as much as it once was. Surely when a vast number of people become degree educated, having a degree becomes less valued.

Actually it's a great illustration of the glass ceiling people who miss university often (not always) encounter. I consider myself to be in the top 20% (in fact I know I am) of pay for recent graduates and someone without the degree I have could not do my job at my age without a helluva lot of experience.

I suspect the gap between top 20% grads and top 20% non grads is probably pretty big - total guess out of my arse I'd say about 40-50% salary increase. The entire board at the company I work at is university educated. Most of the management and skilled workforce likewise.

 

[Tom]

I left college (it changed to a university but it was Salford College to me) as soon as I started getting work. It was only £30 a day work, and hard work, but I figured I was better off with experience than a qualification. I was only a couple of months away from my final exams for a HND (already had a ND).

I've never looked back, and nobody has ever asked my qualifications. All work comes word-of-mouth, and pay is pretty decent considering I have about 200 days a year to do whatever I please.

 

[SilverHood]

Perhaps Tom, but are you the average person without a degree or are you the exception? And would a degree have helped you do your job better? Or does a degree grant you a proficiency at your job?

Neither of my parents have a degree, and they have hit glass ceilings plenty of times. I seem to recall my mum getting turned down for a job solely based on the fact that that she had no degree, but had been doing the same type of work for a gigantic multinational for 10 years.

Like Chilly, I'd be surprised if I wasn't in the top 20 as well, and just the same, you'd need my exact degree, or a very similar one, to do my job. Or you'd need to have worked for 7-8 years doing similar stuff. It's definitely possible, but not at age 24. More than anything, having a degree opened doors that were not there before.

 

[Zenith]

The reason you're at university is so you can say "fail" a lot, you idiot.

I really don't want to pay for it though.

Oh and Rynnor, you're 37 according to your profile. Are you still at university avoiding doing any work or do you just style yourself as champion for young people ?

I think you are so out of space wrong its believable. Its a known fucking fact that universities and a healthy amount of people studying in a country is good for the states economy in the long run. Is it still a waste of space? That a lot of people actually get trained and educated and ready for work, going out there to grab well paying jobs, which will do nothing but do good for the economy as a whole. You can focus as much as you want on the rubbish subjects that wont do any good for the student or the economy, but dont ignore the fact that for every rubbish stubjects theres three that will get the student right on track on the market.

You do show your lack of understanding economics when you spew out statements that you dont actually wanna pay for universities and studying. Its a reason why most countries spend lots and lots and lots of money to upgrade their educational situation and opportunitys.

 

[throdgrain]

I think we'd be better off if you paid for your education, so that when you're gloating about how much you earn a few years later (see several of the posts on this thread) at least you know you paid for it yourself.

That of course applies to the people who have done courses that will get them a job in the first place, which I accept there are many.

But there are also many who do degrees in gardening and god knows what else, that don't ever use (or finish) thier degree, or end up with a second (what a work mate of mine calls a "drinkers degree") and end up doing a job that you could do with or without a useless degree, and also end up with some life skills before the age of 25, instead of mincing about saying words like "fail" as if it was a whole sentance instead of a single word.

 

[tris-]

everyone seems to think that you must have experience in a certain job and that this experience is always better than a degree. fact is, in some cases, you cannot get a job WITHOUT the degree.

Ive worked all over the fucking shop while studying. however ive not done any particular work in my career. ive recently been offered a job in my field and i was the only one out of 5 who hadnt done the job before. therfore without a degree i could never have gotten in to the job. pcg would probably class it as a bullshit degree because it isnt a pure subject being a cominbation of science and legal studies.

i dont have any a levels either, so i guess pgc would of told me i could not goto university 4 years ago? btw, my science degree title has 5 words.

if we operate like you suggest, then many people will be stuck without opportunities. i can say for my self that if i hadnt of been allowed in to university, i would still be working shitty jobs like packing boxes and working in a call centre.

oh and btw, id like some actual examples of these shit degrees youre talking about that have no use. i have never seen a gardening degree and any other of the examples given.

 

[MYstIC G]

This discussion is so funny.

Degrees are good things. However our system is bullshit. If you give everyone a degree they're worthless. Our current system doesn't let the "crem da la crem" rise to the top, it mixes them in with everyone else so those with half a brain can feel as smart as those with a brain. To me the best part of a degree however is that is shows a willingness to be educated.

On the flip side, we've got an Engineering business. You lot can let former students who have since graduated with degrees (1-1) do your house calculations if you like. Having watched them come and go over the years, I'll choose to use the bloke that's done it for 30 years and knows how to read and apply the applicable standards from experience for my house.

The only source of knowledge is experience.

PS: I agree with Throd, if students are going to have student loans and pay for their education, they may as well pay for said education in full.

 

[throdgrain]

On the whole I agree with Meg

 

[tris-]

Our current system doesn't let the "crem da la crem" rise to the top, it mixes them in with everyone else so those with half a brain can feel as smart as those with a brain.

how does that work then?
if the clever people are doing really well, and the half brainers only do OK, how will they feel as smart as people who are doing a lot better?

my class was a mix of people who were really quite smart right down to dimwits. the dimwits certainly knew they werent so hot compared to everyone else and their grades reflected it.

 

[MYstIC G]

Because, going by what's in the news, every year the number that attend increases and the % that pass increases. In the future you won't be able to differentiate the exceptional from the mediocre when everyone that goes to uni walks out with a degree.

Besides which, why are "dimwits" going to university? Rubber stamping people with ability I understand, but rubber stamping those without has always been something I've failed to understand.

 

[tris-]

Because, going by what's in the news, every year the number that attend increases and the % that pass increases. In the future you won't be able to differentiate the exceptional from the mediocre when everyone that goes to uni walks out with a degree.

isnt that what interviews and assesments/tests/etc are for? then you have the individual module scores and degree classifications. i dont know of any job that you are just given without some kind of formal process first. this still doesnt make people with half a brain feel as smart as the better people imo. they may have a degree (if they even pass) and no job related to their degree. the better people will have a degree and a job related to their degree. if i was one of the dimwits and i witnessed my colleagues getting in to the career and i wasnt, i would probably feel stupid.

as for why dimwits get in, some unis are not exactly selective. luckily mine wasnt as i wouldnt of gotten on to the course at manchester or edinburgh with only GCSEs. however, the degree was taught the same at all of them because it is controlled by an institute and one of my lecturers is an examiner for the further professional qualifications you need later in the job. more 'dimwits' might get a degree, but their degree could be totally useless to society. in that case, you can probably ignore the fact they have one.