News Crazy UK Student Costs!

[rynnor]

There are many odd things about this story

BBC NEWS | Education | Charge students more, say bosses

1. Since when did the CBI become an education advisor?

2. While every other civilised country seeks to get more and more graduates in its workforce why would the UK want to go in the wrong direction?

This sounds like national suicide - where will future high tax payers come from?

Personally I think the current costs for Students are obscene - to increase them further can only be an attempt to return to the old days when only an elite went to UK Universities...

I think I'd send my kids to the States to study - might as well get something for their massive debt

 

[Chilly]

It costs shit loads more to study in the US and the standard is no different really, it's jut a different system. US grads tend to have broader educations, to get a decent specialised grad you need to hire post-docs or nothing tbh. Over here a good BSc or Masters in a given subject is often enough specialisation for many jobs.

 

[Krazeh]

Maybe if they got rid of the ridiculous aim to put 50% of school leavers through University and got rid of the many varied and pointless degrees that are on offer these days then it wouldn't be necessary to increase student costs. Bring back proper apprenticeships and have the Universities concentrate on the traditional subjects that people used to goto Uni for.

 

[Tom]

There are many odd things about this story

BBC NEWS | Education | Charge students more, say bosses

1. Since when did the CBI become an education advisor?

Where do you think these 'clever' students will eventually go, if not into business?

 

[cHodAX]

Maybe if they got rid of the ridiculous aim to put 50% of school leavers through University and got rid of the many varied and pointless degrees that are on offer these days then it wouldn't be necessary to increase student costs. Bring back proper apprenticeships and have the Universities concentrate on the traditional subjects that people used to goto Uni for.

The pointless degrees are the entire problem, we are desperate for scientists but we have 100,000's of bloody arts/media students. The system is plain fucking stupid. Oh and yep, good call on apprenticeships as well, they are serverly lacking.

 

[00dave]

Maybe if they got rid of the ridiculous aim to put 50% of school leavers through University and got rid of the many varied and pointless degrees that are on offer these days then it wouldn't be necessary to increase student costs. Bring back proper apprenticeships and have the Universities concentrate on the traditional subjects that people used to goto Uni for.

Unless we're short of psychologists, sociologists, artists, and art historians in this country, then students who pick subjects that aren't pointless should get priority for uni placements.

The problem with apprenticeships is that too many companies exploit young people and abuse the system by calling placements "apprenticeships" when they're just an excuse for cheap labour. My first "apprenticeship" was in a factory cutting telephone wire to length, I stood by a machine catching the wires into bundles of 50. 37 hours a week, for £35 a week, I learned nothing but was still an apprentice, and as soon as I made enquiries into a full time contract I was deemed "not suitable for the job". I'd been working there for 3 months before they made that decision.
Anyway my point is with these companies exploiting the system the alternative to university is crap so all these kids want into the easy life.

 

[Munkey]

I'm of the old school which views university as learning for learning's sake. What is civilisation after all if it is not built and constructed through structured academic debate?

I've been studying politics for the last 4 years, and will be completing my master's thesis on Oct 5th, which is when my course officially comes to an end. It has provided me with a valuable insight into how our country, the EU and the world in general works, as well as giving me greater insight into the issues that are currently affecting Britain. Me and 4 other friends are currently in the process of setting up a think tank to examine the effect that Islam is exerting upon Europe, and subsequently provide a forum for academic debate whilst at the same time putting forward policy proposals to the government. I believe that what the government has given me in terms of an education has been invaluable, and now is the time to return the favour.

My experience is what I believe to be a useful application of my degree and masters course. However the issue that I believe exists within the education system, particularly within Higher Education, is that the problem does lie within the current system, but within the job market itself. Unless you have attained a degree, particularly one where you achieved at least a 2:1, it is almost impossible to find a job. As a result, it has created a system whereby you need, or at least a perceived as needing, a degree to succeed in life. As a result, people who would normally enter the job market straight after A-Levels no longer see this as an option, equating it alongside those who left school after GCSEs, which tends to make the whole GCSE/A-levels worthless except as a marker for university applications.

Consequently, people go to university unsure of what to study or what they actually want to do later on in life, and thus plum for the first option that appeals to them, whether academically or its perceived easiness, which results in people studying 'worthless' degrees. Are these degrees worthless? It depends on how people apply this knowledge, however I do find it ironic that there are some people with a passion for entering a profession such as the media, but yet are unable to as a degree/masters is no longer enough, and find themselves in some other soul-sucking job that has no application to their degree whatsoever, beyond the requirement that their position be filled by someone holding a degree certificate.

Now I do not believe that the market should dictate what areas of study should be filled within universities, as this removes the drive towards academic study and revolution. But it is unfair that there are people who spend 3 years of their life, and the government's, their parent's and their own money towards a degree that they only realise will be seen as 'worthless' once they complete their studies and attempt to enter the job market.

This is something that needs to be looked at by universities and, to an extent, the government. But this is a problem accentuated by courses that are heavily theory-based, as course leaders attempt to lead students towards the academic route, when someone in their 3rd year of university discovers that they would much rather enter the job market and the realisation that theory is great for learning's sake, but less useful in the real world.

This problem is exacerbated by students who see university as their only choice, but have no idea what they want to study/do and discover too late that they made the wrong decision. There needs to be a bit more responsibility on all sides as the government continues its drive towards pushing people towards higher education.

 

[Scouse]

Load of bitter shit because he's jealous that he didn't do something better with his life, thus denouncing "art" as "pointless"

Gah. That about says it.

Seriously. You can hardly blame students because corporate bastards fucked you over. Get angry at the corporate fucktards - not people who've studied hard enough because they knew they'd be fucked over through apprenticeships and the like if they didn't.

I used to think all arts/humanities subjects were useless wastes of time and energy. Well - they're wastes of time and energy as far as earning money is concerned, but if the only thing in life worth anything is earning money then I'm quite happy for the human race to go tits up completely. I mean, total devestation leaving a handful of people here and there.

On the flip side, in the past I've earned buckets of the stuff, but it didn't really make me any happier. It just made life easier - and the only reason it's as hard as it is for the majority in the first place is the system we are slaves to....

It's always the same during harsh economic times. People get angry at the wrong people...

 

[rynnor]

Hah - some familiar points here - lets look at them:

Apprenticeships

Its no longer the 1950s - I'm sorry but it really isnt - we no longer have industries that require massive numbers of apprentices.

There are a few left but you cant have an entire country of electricians/plumbers etc. so barring that theres no question of a return to such times - we simply cannot compete in manufacturing outside of a few niche areas.

People studying the wrong degree's

Leaving aside the whole debate over degree's having an intrinsic value (for which theres a great deal of evidence) most people study something with a view to getting a decent job out of it.

How many jobs do you really think there are in the hard sciences in this country? Its not many and most are badly paid - I personally know people who trained out of sciences due to lack of prospects.

Everyone's getting a degree nowadays

Actually the proportion hasnt changed much just we have a high number of young people in the current generation.

The weird thing is that people dont seem to realise that we are rapidly losing ground to countries like india,china even poland who see increasing the number of graduates as a ticket to wealth.

 

[00dave]

"Load of bitter shit because he's jealous that he didn't do something better with his life, thus denouncing "art" as "pointless"" Gah. That about says it.

I beg your fucking pardon. How dare you rewrite my quote with that quite frankly offensive and personal comment. I am happy with my choices, I joined the RAF and served my country for 4 years, and now I'm working as a medical technician until I can apply to the police force again. Definately better than wasting my time at uni learning about art history.

 

[00dave]

I'd also like to point out that my secondary school failed me quite badly, we're talking worst school in lincolnshire for several years running, headmaster stealing funds, teachers not turning up for lessons, that sort of thing. So my options were very limited when I left school. I planned to join the RAF as flight crew but thanks to my poor education didn't achieve the grades I needed, so I had to work hard to find a different path.

 

[Garaen]

Wow Scouse, you're a smug prick arn't you?

I disagree with a lot of what the CBI has said but I do believe their point about paying back student loans quicker is valid. They should also be more like a loan with a higher rate of interest imo.

 

[Munkey]

Wow Scouse, you're a smug prick arn't you?

I disagree with a lot of what the CBI has said but I do believe their point about paying back student loans quicker is valid. They should also be more like a loan with a higher rate of interest imo.

I disagree with this completely. The whole point of the student loan is to help those who would not normally consider university as an option due to their financial situation. To turn it into a normal loan, with a higher rate of interest, would negate the point completely. To enter a job market straight out of university saddled with debt, and the knowledge that even more of your paycheck must now be diverted away from your actual living costs (living independently, paying tax, council tax, food, rent etc. that everyone else has to pay normally) would discourage people from poorer backgrounds taking advantage of an education system that is ultimately designed to benefit themselves and the economy. It would almost be as bad as making the student loan a part of your credit history.

The student loan is tied to your national insurance number, which means that if you take one out then you are already paying it back. Already the SLC allows a one year grace after graduating, last I checked, whereby you are able to get yourself on your feet and earning before it starts taking money out of your paycheck.

 

[GReaper]

Part of me agrees with pretty much what Munkey said. Far too many jobs requiring degrees with people being forced into going to University as they believe it's something they need to get a decent job - and to be fair it's mostly true.

However one thing which concerns me is the fact that people from certain countries (Scotland, not sure what others) are getting their higher education tuition fees paid for them whilst others are being forced to go into debt to cover it. So some countries are going to have a better educated work force thanks to free/cheap education, when people from other countries others are forced to consider if they can afford to go.

 

[rynnor]

On Student Loans

Funnily enough people seem to have forgotten that these were the replacement for grants - instead of the Government giving you money to help with costs of accomodation/food/books etc. they replaced it with loans at a very low rate of interest.

It still meant that Students were now leaving Uni with big debts but at least their debt didnt grow much.

To then moot replacing it completely with commercial loan rates is crazy - why are we looking to actively punish people who want to improve their education?

 

[rynnor]

Definately better than wasting my time at uni learning about art history.

How do you know? Most people do not end up working in the area they first thought - I know people with Media Studies degree's who became Accountants etc. etc.

Art history is obviously a vocational degree for those involved in the antiques business for example.

Its also a little sad to think that everyone should study simply to fill a vocation - we all benefit from the arts, humanities - we are human beings not worker ants?

 

[Will]

What Munkey said. And the CBI is full of aids.

 

[`mongoose]

Fucking ludicrous idea. This is the CBI which is dominated by bankers who have just finished their slice of humble pie with extra bonuses after the fuckup they made with the economy? How about we make those tards pay that mess back at with interest and see how they like the idea of commercial rate loans?

I just hope that this idea is being viewed as light comic relief and not some moron's idea of the future of learning in this country. As it is we're well on our way to limiting the options of less affluent learners, the last thing we need to close the door completely.

M

 

[00dave]

How do you know? Most people do not end up working in the area they first thought - I know people with Media Studies degree's who became Accountants etc. etc.

Art history is obviously a vocational degree for those involved in the antiques business for example.

Like I said before, there can only be so many antique dealers, sociologists, psychologists, art dealers in the country. I have no stats to back me up but from people I know and listening to all those giddy students opening their results on the radio/tv so many of the have taken these subjects.

I don't understand why you defend these people, I'm not talking about the people who use these subjects to back up the proper subjects, thats fine, its the ones who are taking the easy option just so that they can live the uni life and avoid the real world for a bit longer.

 

[rynnor]

I don't understand why you defend these people, I'm not talking about the people who use these subjects to back up the proper subjects, thats fine, its the ones who are taking the easy option just so that they can live the uni life and avoid the real world for a bit longer.

Because its good for all of us - regardless of what they study graduates end up earning more on average which is good for raising all that taxation Govts so love to spend

Its a bit like raising a crop - some will be weeds but overall we are all better off - education is one of the few areas of spending that actually produce a return on the investment.

Its also a reflection of the economy at the moment - when the job market is bad more kids try to better themselves through education - its far better than them sitting on the dole dont you think?

 

[00dave]

its far better than them sitting on the dole dont you think?

To be honest its not much different. Most of the people I know who went to uni are actually on the dole now. Although one of them is a transvestite with his own web site, perhaps his media studies degree helps him to market his site.....I don't talk to him much these days.

 

[Chilly]

Getting the job done is far more important than making money. If the job gets done, then you consider paying people - qualified or not.

 

[Jeros]

As somone who has worked **** jobs for the last 7 odd years i think if you have a change of a better paying job through a degree, not matter what the subject, you should do it.

00dave not all are as lucky as you, so many are sucked into dead end jobs and can never escape.

And any increase in sudent fees would be stupid:

A: It should be free, if scotland can do it for there students why cant we?

B: Education should not be about the wealth of you or your family.

Before the goverment starts thinknig about altering fees they should whip the student loans company into shape, people are losing uni places as they have not got the funding they applied for 6-7 months ago!

 

[Jeros]

Oh and when i say you are lucky, im not implying you have not worked hard for it

 

[Munkey]

As somone who has worked **** jobs for the last 7 odd years i think if you have a change of a better paying job through a degree, not matter what the subject, you should do it.

00dave not all are as lucky as you, so many are sucked into dead end jobs and can never escape.

And any increase in sudent fees would be stupid:

A: It should be free, if scotland can do it for there students why cant we?

B: Education should not be about the wealth of you or your family.

Before the goverment starts thinknig about altering fees they should whip the student loans company into shape, people are losing uni places as they have not got the funding they applied for 6-7 months ago!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the funding for Scottish students comes out of the UK's national budget? Some quirk of financial admin that came out of devolution allowing it.

I would love for education to be free, but I really cannot see how the government can fund it. Back in the 1970s it was easier as far, far fewer students were entering university, and now in the 2000's we have far, far more students. Already the government has stated that it cannot financially cover every student who requires financial assistance this year, which is appalling.

The rate of taxation could increase, but no government will get into office at the moment that would propose that, sad as it is. Only thing that makes me pleased is that the system here isn't as fucked up as it is in the US, where student debt seems to be spiraling out of control.

Part of the problem seems to lie within students being transformed into 'clients', where an ethos exists within some universities that because students are now paying, they are therefore customers, which has created a whole PR department of 'customer satisfaction' etc. Just go back to treating them like students and placing the importance on the education experience.

 

[00dave]

00dave not all are as lucky as you, so many are sucked into dead end jobs and can never escape.

It wasn't luck, it was walking into a armed forces careers office and going through with it all. I personally think the experiences and qualification I gained from the forces are worth more than a lot of uni degrees. But admittedly it's not for everyone.

Going back to my original point about apprenticeships and a point Rynnor raised about there not being enough industries to support apprenticeship schemes. With all due respect I think you're wrong because there are hundreds of jobs out there that we've probably never heard of that require people to train in.

 

[rynnor]

Going back to my original point about apprenticeships and a point Rynnor raised about there not being enough industries to support apprenticeship schemes. With all due respect I think you're wrong because there are hundreds of jobs out there that we've probably never heard of that require people to train in.

It depends what you mean by apprenticeships - back in the day it meant working for years to be slowly trained in an extremely skillful job - equivalent to some of the more technical degree's today such as mechanical engineering.

By doing your apprenticeship you gained sought after skills that would stand you in good stead for good wages throughout your career. (My Dad was an engineering apprentice back in the 50s).

Many modern apprenticeships are a very poor relation of this ideal - paying people a sub-standard wage for practically nil training with no real transferrable skills.

The only real apprenticeships left that I know of are electricians/plumbers and maybe builders and there is a limit to how many of those are actually needed.

Proper skilled apprenticeships were mostly an offshoot of industries we no longer posess.

 

[Munkey]

It depends what you mean by apprenticeships - back in the day it meant working for years to be slowly trained in an extremely skillful job - equivalent to some of the more technical degree's today such as mechanical engineering.

By doing your apprenticeship you gained sought after skills that would stand you in good stead for good wages throughout your career. (My Dad was an engineering apprentice back in the 50s).

Many modern apprenticeships are a very poor relation of this ideal - paying people a sub-standard wage for practically nil training with no real transferrable skills.

The only real apprenticeships left that I know of are electricians/plumbers and maybe builders and there is a limit to how many of those are actually needed.

Proper skilled apprenticeships were mostly an offshoot of industries we no longer posess.

Pretty much the same situation now with internships for every vocation. You leave university and find yourself unable to enter the job market, thus you end up interning for below minimum wage for much the same situation as you described above.

 

[Starman]

Proper skilled apprenticeships were mostly an offshoot of industries we no longer posess.

I personally within the last few years completed an advanced apprenticeship with EDF Energy Networks as a Cable Jointer; Think connecting live LV (<1000v) cables along with HV cables with the potential to carry 33,000v of electricity when energised. Came away with a City & Guilds 2322 (Certificate in Electrical Technology Engineering) qualification, and an NVQ level 3 (Electrical Power Engineering) along with company internal certifications with the future prospect to do a company sponsored HNC. I really couldn't be more grateful of the chance I was given and how well it all turned out and now have myself a nice secure skilful job earning a decent wage with a finial salary pension.

 

[Garaen]

I think some of you are looking at University with rose tinted glasses on, there are bullshit degrees and there is no arguing that fact.

I'm fresh out of university and I can see no issue with increased re-payment of loan, as it stands the 9% payback rate is so small that increasing it isn't going to cause any issues for people in full time employment, the exception being if you're living in London. I'm not great at maths, but how much money would the government save if it increased the rate to perhaps 12% or 15%? It's a very valid suggestion in order to try and reduce costs.

Saying it'll be too much of a hardship on students is a load of shite, as it stands the loan is paid off over a 30 years or so, most people pissed the money they were given up the wall and will piss most of the cash they get from employment up the wall as well. Now who am I to say how someone spends their cash, but the fact is the government could potentially save some money from this which they can shit away elsewhere.