Politics Coronavirus

[Jupitus]

Israeli COVID-19 treatment shows 100% survival rate - preliminary data

Encouraging, but not a very big sample set

 

[Yoni]

Something a bit more lighthearted for you, if you're that way inclined

View: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10157871988015638&id=509480637&extid=tlHmttEFmd5raDIB&d=null&vh=i

Thank you @JBP| super awsome! Love to Mrs JBP| and the family!

 

[Yoni]

Good to see in all the political negativity and shit throwing that countries are helping each other as and when they can

 

[Moriath]

Police warning after 660 illegal parties shut down

 

[Deebs]

We got 300 from china a few days ago. Keep up

Let's hope they work better than the tests we bought....

Government seeks refund for millions of coronavirus antibody tests

 

[Yoni]

There are reports that masks that Sweden have brought with the CE mark on them are not functioning well also.....

 

[Deebs]

There are reports that masks that Sweden have brought with the CE mark on them are not functioning well also.....

FFS. Were they bought from a legit supplier/manufacturer ? Take no offense in the question, I merely ask as I think that ALL Governments are buying from whoever states they have the stock and could be fake.

I was reading that when it comes to medical supplies there are often middleman that do the sourcing and selling of the products.

 

[Yoni]

Apparently so - the report was in yesterdays live news conference.

 

[Bodhi]

Encouraging, but not a very big sample set

True, but bringing people back from organ failure is bordering on witchcraft.

 

[Embattle]

Why is it so hard to buy flour at the moment?

 

[Scouse]

Why is it so hard to buy flour at the moment?

Not bought a bag of flour in at least a decade.

My o/h is a very keen cook and we had wonderful low-carb coconut paratha this evening with our curry.

#coronahell continues in casa del Scouse I guess.

 

[dysfunction]

I had a great dinner also. a lovely slow cooked ham with roasted veg

 

[Bodhi]

Our preferred Curry house messaged us during the day to say they were opening again tonight for deliveries, so I had a glorious King Prawn Balti with Chicken Pakora starter.

 

[Embattle]

Are EU divisions banished after the coronavirus deal?

 

[caLLous]

Short answer: of course not.

 

[Embattle]

Short answer: of course not.

I can understand both the Northern and Southern countries view, once we are out the EU really needs to move since every time one of these major issues comes up the halfway house option doesn't really work.

 

[caLLous]

 

[Yoni]

Sweden challenges Trump -- and scientific mainstream -- by refusing to lock down - CNN
This article tries to understand what is going on here but I still find it biased.

https://www.thelocal.se/20200409/an...atter-of-policy-history-tradition-and-culture
This article explains why Sweden are not locking down as per other countries as I said earlier it is the legal system

 

[Scouse]

Sweden challenges Trump -- and scientific mainstream -- by refusing to lock down - CNN
This article tries to understand what is going on here but I still find it biased.

In what way? It just asks sensible rational questions.

 

[Yoni]

In what way? It just asks sensible rational questions.

I agree that they do try to ask rational questions, BUT they have not really seeked to answer them. The article is still sensationalist and is just repeating other articles that have been written recently without really adding anything new, which is why I included the article that is quite good at describing how the Swedish consititution works.

I have been desperately trying to be unbiased however right or wrong I am currently leaning towards the views of the swedish health authorities.

There is logic behind there strategy as the public health authority owe a duty of care to the entire population not just the old or at risk individuals. Their advice is VERY clear and I really struggle to understand why non Swedish people living in Sweden and onlookers do not understand it:
- If you are older than 70 isolate
- If you are in a risk group isolate (although i think the UKs actions were better here by notifying individuals if they are in this category) - there are provisions in place in Sweden for salary if you are in this group.
- If you are symptomatic isolate
- Do not use public transport unless you are a key worker going to work
- Work from home if you are able

The public health authority also want to ensure that the health of the population doesn't suffer in other ways (please take the time to read the article I posted by Johan Carlson google translate does a pretty good job). There genuine concern in the population about:
- Increase in child abuse if they close the schools (open still to 16 years old) - not just physical but also a concern about poverty. For kids here too lunch is the only decent meal they may get.
- Increase in domestic abuse if they force people to stay home from work - the abuse may not have existed before but a complete shut down can bring out the worst in humans
- Deterioration in mental health which will ultimatly lead to a deterioration in physical health (mental health wellbeing is taken super seriously in Sweden with very little stigma attached to it - they are not seen as separate but completely intertwined - ie good mental health = good physical health and vice versa eg if you are addicted to alcohol then there is a joint responsibility to help one recover during rehabilitation which includes ones employer (it is very difficult to be fired for being an alchololic in Sweden generally only if one does not follow the rehab programme you are put on by your employer).


The health care and additional support systems in Sweden are pre CV19 are fucking awesome, I do not hear many complaints but I laugh at those Swedish people who complain as compared with my experience in the UK.

In terms of culture Swedish people know that going to work with a runny nose is just not ok - in fact as you enter most workplaces there are notices stating that you should go home if you do not feel well- I know it is difficult to understand culturally but one is not seen as a hero if you show up to work to meet a deadline with a cold or flu - you become a pariah and your boss will send you home and bollock you. Why because during winter the highly contagious (not as contagious as CV19) Vinterkräksjuka (norovirus) can serverely handicap the work place and in extream cases close it down - Isolation is required for 3 days after your last bought of diarrhea and / or vomiting -(interesting note due to CV19 and the increase in handwashing and spritzing vinterkräksjuka season was cut short in Sweden this year).

We will see if Sweden got it wrong when all the numbers are in and they can be reviewed in detail and I do not think that there will be enough clean information from countries to do that for a year or so - there is so much that needs to be analysed to see whether a strategy is sucessful or not : for example what happens when restrictions are lifted? A second or third wave? How long can humans who are ultimately social individuals remain in "isolation" before society becomes a powder keg? More empirical questions - what counts as a death from CV19? when the scores are on the doors - will countries include the sick or even terminally ill who died before their time as resources were reallocated to CV19 patients? What about deaths / suicides from domestic violence due to being shut in or child deaths due to poverty and abuse and finally the deaths of the currently "forgotten" ie those in old peoples homes that are currently being excluded from statistics all over the world (including Sweden)?

I refuse to be critical about any countries strategy as I said previously in this thread I do not believe that any countries governments / experts want anyone to die unecessarily so we have to have faith in the governments in the countries we live in that they know what they are doing.

 

[Yoni]

https://www.thelocal.se/20200410/co...countries-are-searching-a-return-to-normality

 

[~Yuckfou~]

Further improvements again today, far from over though.
I'm self employed (Autonomo), the government have decided to give me 300 euros. Marvellous, better than nothing though I suppose.

 

[Yoni]

This article saddens me A New Front for Nationalism: The Global Battle Against a Virus

 

[Wij]

Billionaire Dyson’s 10,000 Ventilators Risk Missing Coronavirus ‘Peak Week’ In U.K. Hospitals

 

[SilverHood]

From what I can see, Sweden is just being typically Swedish? If you are old, have other medical issues and / or don't have much life expectancy remaining, then you're going to the bottom of the list for prioritization of medical resources. But the whole point of shutting down the entire country is to avoid a situation where the above policy is even needed. My Swedish is not great, but reading about the 3 categories of severity described by Lars Sandman, and how they are going to make decisions on who is going to live and die, well, it makes me happy I have no elderly family in Sweden.

Meanwhile, people in NYC are dying quicker than they can officially be counted:
How Many People Have Actually Died From Coronavirus in New York?

 

[Yoni]

From what I can see, Sweden is just being typically Swedish? If you are old, have other medical issues and / or don't have much life expectancy remaining, then you're going to the bottom of the list for prioritization of medical resources. But the whole point of shutting down the entire country is to avoid a situation where the above policy is even needed. My Swedish is not great, but reading about the 3 categories of severity described by Lars Sandman, and how they are going to make decisions on who is going to live and die, well, it makes me happy I have no elderly family in Sweden.

Meanwhile, people in NYC are dying quicker than they can officially be counted:
How Many People Have Actually Died From Coronavirus in New York?

The coronacrisis brings difficult choices
You can read them here in English. Do you believe that this is just a Swedish phenomena at the moment or do you think that all healthcare systems under pressure are triaging in this way? For me it is clear if my husband and I are sick enough to be hospitalised I know that he will be prioritised not just because of "real" age but also "biological" age. If for example a fit healthy 70 year old came in alongside a person with severe athsma issues who was 50 they would prioritise the 70 year old if they beliieve that they have a higher rate of survival.

I know that it isn't a fun read - it is very straight to the point and transparent and realistic and it gives the medical profession in Sweden a set of rules on how to triage during this crisis. I believe that ALL countries are working in this way right now so this is nothing out of the ordinary.

"Has it been difficult to formulate these guidelines from an ethical point of view?
"No, the ethical platform here is perfectly clear. I’ve been working with colleagues on questions about setting priorities in healthcare for 20 years. The new guidelines are based on the three principles of the ethical platform for setting priorities: human dignity, needs and solidarity, and cost-effectiveness. These were passed by the Swedish parliament as long ago as the 1990s, and have been supported since then by a strong political consensus."

The human dignity principle states that people have equal worth, and have the right to care independently of age, gender, education, social status or economic resources.

The needs and solidarity principle makes it clear that those with the most severe diseases are to receive care first.

The cost-effectiveness principle requires that there be a reasonable relationship between the cost and the effect of treatment.

Questions of priority are now in focus in the societal debate in a completely new way. How do you view this?
"It’s positive that people gain insight into work with setting priorities in healthcare, and the ethical balancing act that is often required. And we are going to have a high pressure on the health and medical care system for a long time. At the moment, a care debt is growing to all those who are compelled to wait and are not receiving the care and treatment they otherwise would have received. So questions about setting priorities will be very important for a long time."

The new guidelines from the National Board of Health and Welfare clarify the three principles for setting priorities, which are brought into sharp focus. When selecting between patients who need intensive care, one of the factors that the healthcare personnel are to consider is the biological age of the patient. This is not the same as the number of years lived, but the magnitude of the probability for survival in the future."

Is this not logical?

Re New York - it must be terrifying to live and be in the medical profession there at the moment :'(

 

[Scouse]

Triage aside, which I cannot pass judgement on as different countries have different value systems, the only thing that concerns about Sweden is that they don't seem to be taking all possible action to reduce transmission - resulting in higher deaths per million population than could (and have) be achieved.

But then, they're still beating us

 

[Yoni]

Triage aside, which I cannot pass judgement on as different countries have different value systems, the only thing that concerns about Sweden is that they don't seem to be taking all possible action to reduce transmission - resulting in higher deaths per million population than could (and have) be achieved.

I agree that official numbers through hospitals are higher than its neighbours at this time however I do not believe deaths can be used as a viable statistic to compare countries until later in the year and it will probably be debated for many years to come - already we know that not all deaths are equal in the statistics - old peoples homes, own homes, homeless are not included.

I very much hope that each and every country is doing what they believe is best for their population now matter how odd or strange it may seem to those of us in countries using different strategies - for example I found it odd that when Denmark started discussing reducing transmission statistics the focus was on on opening churches for tomorrow (thankfully this has been benched).

In Sweden I watch two statistics now
- new infections each day (testing is still only really done on people who are sick enough to go to hospital although they are doing some random studies at the momemetn to look at levels of infection within the population mainly in stockholm)
- numbers in intensive care

 

[~Yuckfou~]

You can't buy masks here for love nor money. I've got some on order (3 weeks ago) from Amazon but the postal service here is borked so no idea when they will arrive. I've been using one of those tube scarf things.
It looks like when things ease a mask will be a requirement. Today the local town hall have been giving them out free. So went to get a couple, local bobby was handing them out. They are hand made by the locals. I love this country.

 

[dysfunction]

I really don't think have a mask is all that useful. May make you feel better about going to shops but probably not necessary.
Washing your hands and staying well clear of people is of more benefit.