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[Moriath]

Honestly m8 - that feels more like a regurgitated platitude rather than an acknowledgement of the complexity of human feeling IMO.

Human feeling from one side. And not the side of the person who’s life you want to change.

just cause you have a baby doesnt mean that the rest of your life you cannot do what you want.

 

[JBP|]

Honestly m8 - that feels more like a regurgitated platitude rather than an acknowledgement of the complexity of human feeling IMO.

I think you have clearly demonstrated you have no understanding of human feelings, judging your previous posts.

 

[Scouse]

You're just butthurt @Moriath.

All I asked was for suggestions on how to approach a sensitive subject to help someone have a happier time with her family.

She doesn't *want* to be fat and immobile, jealous of the fact that the rest of her family are able to walk 30 minutes down, say, forestry track to town.

It upsets her that she can't do it - and upsets her family that when she visits and they want to go for a short walk she starts complaining that her family want to leave her there and starts making everyone feel bad.

But she won't take *any* action to fix that fixable situation.

That doesn't make everyone else intolerant or uncaring.

 

[Yoni]

Then drive her to the location and have her walk by naturally moving around looking at her surroundings .... small steps - at 80 my grandfather also was a miserable bugger who refused to walk down the drive and back.... my mum took him out to see the garden and without him realised he had walked more than to the end of the drive and back...

when my mum used to tell me how fat I was I just became more and more stubborn.... so stop doing that - SHE is the only person who can do this -he daughters roles like it or not is to support her regardless - she has an eating disorder ie she is the same as an anorexic that refuses to accept their illness....nothing will change unless they do the work (for the last time this is not just about eating less and doing more exercise- the sooner you all you and her daughters, understand that the better).

 

[Scouse]

We do understand it @Yoni. And I 100% agree with you that SHE needs to do the work. It's no good us doing that just for when she visits - she needs to be doing it herself, for herself, on a day to day basis.

The ask is: What other options are there to try and get her to realise that she needs to do the work without irretrieveably fucking the relationship up?

I don't believe there's a way to do this without some serious conflict, which everyone is keen to avoid. How do you get someone to take responsibility for themselves when they're in flat-out denial?


Edit: The reason I keep posting on this (which must be boring the fuck out of most people) is that I'm seeing nothing in the suggestions that hasn't been tried before - unsuccesfully - and doesn't lead to the next ten or fifteen years (or however long it is before she karks it) being a miserable time spent together rather than a happy and fulfilling one for all parties.

I don't think families should be willing to resign themselves to misery because one member has a serious problem. It's how do you create/prompt genuine change without destroying the relationship you're trying to fix.

 

[JBP|]

I think you might find Yoni didnt say SHE had to do the work. She said her family need to support her regardless.
If the lady in question says she wants to make the changes but seems unable to I think you might be better off using some mental health services to discover what the underlying issues might be.
And before you go off on one about mental health my step son is a recovering alcoholic that keeps falling off the wagon, and we are just starting down the mental health route to help him understand why he falls off the wagon and to teach him better coping methods.

 

[Scouse]

I think you might find Yoni didnt say SHE had to do the work. She said her family need to support her regardless.

Yoni did say that only she can do the work. Which is true. And her family are, of course, supporting her - have been for decades. To no avail - and the situation is worsening, not improving.

If the lady in question says she wants to make the changes but seems unable to I think you might be better off using some mental health services to discover what the underlying issues might be.

How are you supposed to engage mental health services for someone who is in denial of any problems? You can't go to / attend meetings for them.

And before you go off on one about mental health my step son is a recovering alcoholic that keeps falling off the wagon, and we are just starting down the mental health route to help him understand why he falls off the wagon and to teach him better coping methods.

I'm not going to "go off on one" about mental health. Of course this is a mental health issue. It's great for your son that you're involved in that conversation. I'm glad that there's a process which you're undertaking together.

To use alcoholism as the example instead of obesity and inactivity - the direct comparison would be: this woman is an alcoholic that is still drinking, denying there is a problem and causing her family pain, and herself pain and health issues whilst refusing all offers of help, no matter how sensitively the subject is broached.

How do you deal with that?

At some point that situation can become too painful for a family to deal with and it leads to total relationship breakdown. You don't "support people regardless" indefinitely if the relationship is allowed to evolve to the point that it breaks down. I'm asking for ideas on how to avoid that eventuality.

 

[gunner440]

At some point that situation can become too painful for a family to deal with and it leads to total relationship breakdown. You don't "support people regardless" indefinitely if the relationship is allowed to evolve to the point that it breaks down. I'm asking for ideas on how to avoid that eventuality.

This is a tough one. I've had several similar experiences and to sum out the different outcomes:

1. They get to a point so low when something insider triggers the light bulb and then they suddenly 'get it'.
2. They see someone else get to the low point in 1. and then that triggers the light bulb for them.
3. They don't see a problem and continue as is. Hurting everyone around them that cares for them, resulting in these people consciously/subconsciously avoiding/'abandoning' the person.
4. They affect their immediate family so much that feuds and divides occur between these family members due to the increased stress caused by the one affected.
5. They are forced by their loved ones into a solution. Struggle ensues and relationship is damaged for good.

The theory is really easy but in practice it's like talking Chinese to a deaf 2 year old. They just don't understand it for whatever reason. Frustrating as hell.

Number 4 was the worst one I was involved in. All these 'wars' happening due to people not even affected. My logic can't process that.

 

[Scouse]

Yep @gunner440 - this is exactly the sort of stuff.

I see the current situation as a 3. We're trying to avoid a 5 - forcing her into a change - not that you really can force anyone. But two decades in, and a couple of failed "interventions" and she doesn't see how her (lack of) action is really hurting her family.

Without the low-point lightbulb of 1) then a lot of people really don't get it. I would have thought her husband's heart-attack might have been that lightbulb but no such luck.

Of course, there's a few on this board who have their own issues who'd rather point the finger at me but I'm not the one with the poor behaviour. Maybe they don't like seeing people discussing frankly and openly their thought process because they apply it to how they feel, and how people might have been talking about them. But closed-room talking "about" the person "behind their back" is normal.

 

[gunner440]

Yep @gunner440 - this is exactly the sort of stuff.

I see the current situation as a 3. We're trying to avoid a 5 - forcing her into a change - not that you really can force anyone. But two decades in, and a couple of failed "interventions" and she doesn't see how her (lack of) action is really hurting her family.

Without the low-point lightbulb of 1) then a lot of people really don't get it. I would have thought her husband's heart-attack might have been that lightbulb but no such luck.

Of course, there's a few on this board who have their own issues who'd rather point the finger at me but I'm not the one with the poor behaviour. Maybe they don't like seeing people discussing frankly and openly their thought process because they apply it to how they feel, and how people might have been talking about them. But closed-room talking "about" the person "behind their back" is normal.

It's honestly a horrible situation where I don't see a win-win solution. If someone does find one let me know please.

Easiest route for me was to exhaust all my efforts before abandoning them. My logic is 1 casualty is better than 2 but then again, logic doesn't really belong in a scenario like this.

 

[Moriath]

You're just butthurt @Moriath.

All I asked was for suggestions on how to approach a sensitive subject to help someone have a happier time with her family.

She doesn't *want* to be fat and immobile, jealous of the fact that the rest of her family are able to walk 30 minutes down, say, forestry track to town.

It upsets her that she can't do it - and upsets her family that when she visits and they want to go for a short walk she starts complaining that her family want to leave her there and starts making everyone feel bad.

But she won't take *any* action to fix that fixable situation.

That doesn't make everyone else intolerant or uncaring.

Im not butt hurt. Lol

If she is saying she wants to be better then all you can do is offer to help. To do things with her that get her more active.
if she doesnt take these things up and still keeps the same diet etc then it seems to me that she isnt really wanting to do the things she is saying and is just playing lip service to what she thinks you guys want her to do.

you cant change people unless they really want it. Like any kind of addict.

the reason that no one else can come up with ideas is because theres no magic bullet.

 

[Yoni]

For me I was not supported by my mum which made the situation worse and me even more sad (JBP can remember)...

For me things changed due to two reasons
- went to my younger sisters wedding and her father in law was rude to me (which was really upsetting as he had never met me before)
- one of my sisters friends had lost load a shitload of weight on a vlcd
I by that stage had tried every diet you can think of and was at my wits end.

The vlcd did its job back then and to this day it is the only way I can lose weight. I do not lead a normal life- I can not eat food normally for a long period of time without getting fat even whilst running 5k per day..... It is not as easy as you make it out to be and it is VERY VERY depressing a lot of the time, mostly due to judgmental cunts like you. Her mother is 80 - if I was your gf I would stop being selfish and just visit my mum making the most of the time left.

 

[Scouse]

The vlcd did its job back then and to this day it is the only way I can lose weight. I do not lead a normal life- I can not eat food normally for a long period of time without getting fat even whilst running 5k per day..... It is not as easy as you make it out to be and it is VERY VERY depressing a lot of the time, mostly due to judgmental cunts like you. Her mother is 80 - if I was your gf I would stop being selfish and just visit my mum making the most of the time left.

I've said twice now that her mother is 66, not 80. I'm talking on a forum, not to her face. I think what you're seeing is behind-closed-doors conversations and applying them to your own situations and feelings. It's not how I'd talk in front of anyone. @gunner440 gets where Im coming from.

As for "making the most of time left" - we can't. It's unpleasant. That's the whole point of this discussion. The next twenty years is riding on it and no amount of feelgood platitudes is bringing about the necessary change.

VLC diets work. I'm glad you find something that works for you. It's what myself and my partner also require if we are to lose weight - the 7 hours of bike riding we did yesterday won't make a dent. 90% of weight loss has always been in diet. If we could get her mum to even attempt half of a VLC diet, or any diet at all, then that would be tremendous progress.

As for "eating normally" - I'd argue that if 70% of britons are overweight or obese then "normally" isn't working for most people. I think absolutely we have to be a lot more mindful on how, what and when we eat.

 

[JBP|]

What you seem to be misunderstanding is that for any progress to be achieved is a long, hard, horrible slog. I've suggested you talk to mental health professionals that can offer support for ALL of the family, or you can just shrug it all off and call her a lazy cunt (like you already have). The choice is yours to make as a family unit.
At some point you will have to THAT conversation with the lady where you all lay your cards on the table which inevitably will be upsetting for all involved. At that point its up to all of you to work together and hopefully make progress.

 

[Scouse]

What you seem to be misunderstanding is that for any progress to be achieved is a long, hard, horrible slog.

What you seem to be misunderstanding is that I understand that and your subsequent points perfectly, and have been at pains to point that out.

But I draw the line at the fact that, on some level, this is absolutely about personal responsibility. You are personally responsible for your health, mental and physical. And if your family has made decades of effort (including conversations with doctors without their mum present) then it's got to be about you and your actions.

The people I know who struggle the least are the ones who've been taught from a very young age that if something, anything, needs to get done then they have to do it.

You don't like the label - but if your family has done everything in their power (bar the nuclear options which have lasting consequences) then, even if you have a mental health issue it's that issue that gets you the label.


Edit: Long and the short is that the original ask is what other options do we have. And nobody has any. Which is fair enough.

 

[gunner440]

What you seem to be misunderstanding is that I understand that and your subsequent points perfectly, and have been at pains to point that out.

But I draw the line at the fact that, on some level, this is absolutely about personal responsibility. You are personally responsible for your health, mental and physical. And if your family has made decades of effort (including conversations with doctors without their mum present) then it's got to be about you and your actions.

The people I know who struggle the least are the ones who've been taught from a very young age that if something, anything, needs to get done then they have to do it.

You don't like the label - but if your family has done everything in their power (bar the nuclear options which have lasting consequences) then, even if you have a mental health issue it's that issue that gets you the label.


Edit: Long and the short is that the original ask is what other options do we have. And nobody has any. Which is fair enough.

Having had discussions about this with the people involved we came to the conclusion that the only way to do it would be to tie up the person affected and force them to do what they 'need' to do. i.e. tie them up so they can't eat as much or tie them up so they can't drink etc. That however isn't exactly fair regardless of whether the result would be achieved. We would have to live their life for them which isn't really an option even though in some cases maybe it should be.

It's a stupid dilemma and the 'making most of the time left' doesn't work because in order for me to 'make most of the time left' I have to put myself in a situation where I am stabbing myself with a Rambo knife while I 'make most of the time left'. It's not something I want to do on purpose as I can't compromise myself more than I already have for the sake of someone else.

 

[JBP|]

The long and short is, you asked, you were given options and insights in to how others have dealt with similar situations.
You have been dismissive of others experience and seem to think the sole responsibility lies with the lady.
You are wrong no matter how you try to dress is it and even twist others words to fit you narrative.
I think the only option you really want to hear is... Ahhhh fuck it.
As I've said the choice is for the family to make. Just make sure you can live with whatever choice you make as a whole.

 

[Moriath]

The long and short is, you asked, you were given options and insights in to how others have dealt with similar situations.
You have been dismissive of others experience and seem to think the sole responsibility lies with the lady.
You are wrong no matter how you try to dress is it and even twist others words to fit you narrative.
I think the only option you really want to hear is... Ahhhh fuck it.
As I've said the choice is for the family to make. Just make sure you can live with whatever choice you make as a whole.

This. Like i said. And you didnt want to acknowledge. If she says she wants to do things to change and you have been supportive and offered her things then she really doesn’t and she is saying what she thinks you guys want to hear.

you cant force people to do stuff. without sectioning.

 

[Embattle]

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

 

[JBP|]

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

No, but you can wet its lips and see if it takes the hint.

 

[Talivar]

This is all about the cycle of change and if a person is not at the right stage then nothing you say or do will change that. It is hard to tell for sure on an internet forum but is it actually the Mum you are worried about or more yourself and your partner and the misery the situation is making YOU feel. This is a bit like trying to force a Chef out of a kitchen as you dont like the heat.
CBT ect would not work on Mum if she does not want to change but it might work on you and your partner to help reduce the anxiety you look to be feeling.

 

[Talivar]

Also wanting to change and being ready to change are completly different so doesnt matter what Mum is saying if she is not ready to make the changes.

 

[Scouse]

Having had discussions about this with the people involved we came to the conclusion that the only way to do it would be to tie up the person affected and force them to do what they 'need' to do. i.e. tie them up so they can't eat as much or tie them up so they can't drink etc. That however isn't exactly fair regardless of whether the result would be achieved. We would have to live their life for them which isn't really an option even though in some cases maybe it should be.

It's a stupid dilemma and the 'making most of the time left' doesn't work because in order for me to 'make most of the time left' I have to put myself in a situation where I am stabbing myself with a Rambo knife while I 'make most of the time left'. It's not something I want to do on purpose as I can't compromise myself more than I already have for the sake of someone else.

This.

is it actually the Mum you are worried about or more yourself and your partner and the misery the situation is making YOU feel.

It's all of it. At the same time.

Worrying about and wanting the best for everyone is the default position, for sure.

When push comes to shove the primary concern will always be my partner. But as she can't be happy without a good relationship with her mum, then that's somewhere you have to put your best efforts.

You have been dismissive of others experience and seem to think the sole responsibility lies with the lady.

I refute this in the strongest terms. I've been at pains to point out exactly the opposite.

But whichever way you cut it - the lion's share of the responsibility lies with her. Only she can change. Horse / water etc. But she won't "wet her lips".

 

[Talivar]

You could try some perception work, you need to sell a different pespective but do it over a period of time and drip feed it. Never make suggestions or demands but instead casually discuss scenarios that she could achieve alone once you are gone, small pieces of bait and then if she does want to change but is afraid of failure she might try while you and others are not around, if you notice any of these attempts then praise and encourage with things like how happy she seems today but do not go overboard and do not go down the route of we told you how good you would feel ect.
An example might be some seeds for the garden, you got some yourself and was some spare so you thought she might like them, then just leave them there without anymore discussion or pushing. There will likely be many failed attempts before something sticks but that is the nature of this work.

 

[JBP|]

I refute this in the strongest terms. I've been at pains to point out exactly the opposite.

Really?
It certainly didn't read that way to me and I'm not the only one either.

 

[JBP|]

I guess if no one wants to do the hard work, you could open your wallets for something like this?

Gastric Band Surgery | Tonic Weight Loss Surgery" https://www.tonicweightlosssurgery.co.uk/home-3/weight-loss-treatments/gastric-band/

Buy it as a Christmas present, she can't say no then.

 

[Scouse]

I guess if no one wants to do the hard work, you could open your wallets for something like this?

Gastric Band Surgery | Tonic Weight Loss Surgery" https://www.tonicweightlosssurgery.co.uk/home-3/weight-loss-treatments/gastric-band/

Buy it as a Christmas present, she can't say no then.

Already discussed. Flat out no.

Plus, I think she'd never talk to anyone ever again if I bought it for a christmas present. She's be utterly ridiculously insulted.

 

[Moriath]

I guess if no one wants to do the hard work, you could open your wallets for something like this?

Gastric Band Surgery | Tonic Weight Loss Surgery" https://www.tonicweightlosssurgery.co.uk/home-3/weight-loss-treatments/gastric-band/

Buy it as a Christmas present, she can't say no then.

Thats not really a solution for good health though. Surgery usually leaves you unable to eat much at all and its hard to keep the nutrients your body needs. My wifes mum had something similar.

 

[Yoni]

I know of 3 women who have had a gastric sleeve and whilst it seems extreme, for them it has worked well. However, it is currently not suitable for Scouse’s problem as before surgery you need to lose a substantial amount of weight on a vlcd and in Sweden complete a course of CBT beforehand.

 

[Scouse]

You can do whatever you like privately @Yoni. It's not really available on the NHS because of the requirement to lose a load of weight - and if you can lose a load of weight, why do you need a gastric band in the first place? It's about 6 grand or so private.

Thats not really a solution for good health though. Surgery usually leaves you unable to eat much at all and its hard to keep the nutrients your body needs. My wifes mum had something similar.

This, however, is utter tosh.

It allows you to eat enough calories to maintain a healthy weight. And if you can maintain a healthy weight then you can get in all the nutrients you need. I know two people who've had it done and it works out spectacularly for them - they dislike that they're no longer able to eat the volume of shit that they used to though. The reason being - to get the nutrients you need to be healthy you can also no longer eat shit.

Arguably, if you're going as far as having surgery to force yourself to lose weight from your uncontrollable eating and you carry on in the way you used to - pizza and ice-cream heaven - then you're probably already nutrient deficient. But at least you're not fat any more, which has myriad health benefits of it's own regardless of whether you're getting all the vitamins and minerals you need.