Politics Coronavirus

[JBP|]

Of course you know exactly what the circumstances were causing her to make that journey, don't you?
I think some of you need to go back and read what you have been saying, unless of course you actually are the condescending pricks you appear to be.
I'm getting right fucked off with peoples attitudes just lately. Starting to looks like jobs banning has been seen as a green light to be as big as a dick you complained he was.
Sort yourselves out for fucks sake.

Devastated at being caught out. Nothing more.

 

[Tay]

Devastated at being caught out. Nothing more.

Without knowing the circumstances its hard to say. But people in the public eye are always going to get hammered a more than others, they are expected to lead by example but they are just human.

My wife and myself are one of two sets of carers to her mother some 65 miles away. So we've been keeping away for the last 2-3 months, however, if I chose to drive up their I'd be quite within my rights to do so.

The reason we don't is that my wife has been working in Covid ITU and frankly the risk to passing that on is too great.

 

[Bodhi]

But he would anyway Yons.

I look at it like this - I only care what the evidence says UK policy should be. You can make an argument for different things but unless you make a different moral judgement about the value of personal freedom over risk to life then the evidence supports only one direction for the UK.

To make his argument Bodhi has to selectively ignore the facts or cherry pick items that support his position. Fair enough. But he's not being hard done by or unfairly bashed for that. He's advocating for personal freedom at the cost of more death.

That's why he's getting a kicking.

This is a kicking is it? Feels more like a tickling of some angry midgies with a Ctrl-I button if I'm honest.

 

[Bodhi]

Amanda Holden 'devastated' at lockdown rule break

The Britain's Got Talent judge admits she travelled over 200 miles after a "distressing" call from her parents.

www.bbc.co.uk

what exactly is she devastated about? I reakon its that shes been caught out. If she thought her parents were in trouble 200 miles away you call an emergency service At least.

i cant understand her being devastated about doing it, while doing it. Just about the potential issues now she has done it.

Nothing she did was against the rules, and the fact that people are up in arms about someone going to see their vulnerable parents shows just how far we have fallen as a society on the empathy stakes.

I mean seriously, shopping your neighbours in for going to see vulnerable family members? The Stasi would be proud.

 

[Bodhi]

Of course you know exactly what the circumstances were causing her to make that journey, don't you?
I think some of you need to go back and read what you have been saying, unless of course you actually are the condescending pricks you appear to be.
I'm getting right fucked off with peoples attitudes just lately. Starting to looks like jobs banning has been seen as a green light to be as big as a dick you complained he was.
Sort yourselves out for fucks sake.

Yep, pretty much this, with knobs on.

Some people on this thread really need to take a long hard look at themselves in the mirror when they say they are the caring sort, as on current evidence, they are nothing like it.

I mean when you have to rely on someone who voted the Leave the EU to point out that closing the borders is a stupid idea, you have officially jumped the shark.

 

[Bodhi]

Yes he is. And he's wrong.

Is shown very clearly by the science. Lockdowns are saving lives, they're not killing more people than they're saving. They're not leading to a level of mental health breakdown that is leading to a massive uptick in suicides.

This isn't my view or opinion @Yoni. The data is out there and is very very clear.

The reason Bodhi is getting a kicking is that, even when this is put on a plate for him, simply and clearly, he doesn't want to believe it. He wants the lockdown to end. That is his opinion.


People can hold whatever views or opinions they want. If they hold the view or opinion that the sky is orange, then that's fair enough. But they can still be called out on their shit - we've measured the sky. It's blue.

No it isn't, it's actually violet, just the scattering of light particles makes it look blue to us, most of the time.

Earth's Skies Are Violet, We Just See Them As Blue

So you're wrong about that as well? Strange, for such a strong devotee to The Science (TM), there do seem to be an awful lot of basics you struggle with.

Next you'll be suggesting that the Earth is round and rotates around the Sun!

 

[Moriath]

Nothing she did was against the rules, and the fact that people are up in arms about someone going to see their vulnerable parents shows just how far we have fallen as a society on the empathy stakes.

I mean seriously, shopping your neighbours in for going to see vulnerable family members? The Stasi would be proud.

Its not that its the fake devastation that she is supposed to have felt as she drove 200 miles. apparently beating her self up withshame as she was doing it.

the devastation is a spin that has been added afterwards and is a silly thing to say.

 

[Embattle]

Next you'll be suggesting that the Earth is round and rotates around the Sun!

In Earth isn't round, it is ellipsoid.

 

[Scouse]

In Earth isn't round, it is ellipsoid.

Arguments around the shape of the earth and (rather cool) scattering of light around the skies aside, the fact that lockdowns aren't killing huge swathes of people and are actually saving them is nailed-on tho

Oh, and btw the earth is an oblate spheroid

 

[Bodhi]

Arguments around the shape of the earth and (rather cool) scattering of light around the skies aside, the fact that lockdowns aren't killing huge swathes of people and are actually saving them is nailed-on tho

Oh, and btw the earth is an oblate spheroid

Just like it's nailed on that the sky is blue you mean?

However I'm sure as you are so confident that such research exists, I'm guessing you've got some sort of scientific investigation, based upon observed data, that shows how effective these are at reducing death.

Being honest, a quick look at the comparative experiences of California and Florida would suggest they don't do much at all, however I'm sure you have something more concrete than that?

I mean you are suggesting that you don't think that lockdown has caused any additional deaths, when the BMJ - and indeed SAGE - seem to disagree with that, so I'm sure you have some kind of knockout research which has put the matter to bed?

Re BMJ: Covid-19: “Staggering number” of extra deaths in community is not explained by covid-19

And that was back in May, excess non-COVID deaths have been running at about 1000 a week since then, so this number will have got ever higher. I am still trying to figure out how a Public Health Intervention can cause so much collateral damage, however I'm sure you have a study which shows it isn't happening. I shall await that with bated breath.

tl:dr Put up or shut up.

 

[Scouse]

you are suggesting that you don't think that lockdown has caused any additional deaths

I have repeatedly and very clearly NOT said that - and have also additionally clarified exactly what I've said for your benefit.

If you still can't grasp what I mean after all that additional effort that's on you, not me. So, although it may be an inopportune time to say it: "go jump".

 

[Bodhi]

I have repeatedly and very clearly NOT said that - and have also additionally clarified exactly what I've said for your benefit.

If you still can't grasp what I mean after all that additional effort that's on you, not me. So, although it may be an inopportune time to say it: "go jump".

So that's a no then.

 

[Scouse]

I've already provided all I'm going to provide - but to use your figures - I'll accept this at face value:

excess non-COVID deaths have been running at about 1000 a week since then

Fine. Covid deaths have been running at over 2000 a day, for quite some time. 120,000 in the year. Even if your headline figure there was directly attributable to covid lockdowns (rather than NHS capacity) that's still more than double non-COVID deaths.

So tough titties - lockdowns stay.


When you provide figures that show lockdowns are killing more people than they're saving, then we can talk again. Kthksbye.

 

[Gwadien]

How do our surplus suicide rates due to covid compare to other countries that have been on lockdown? I've had a look online but it seems that no-one can agree on stats.

I just wonder how much of this is due to the UK having a poor mental health service (especially for young people) for years. I knew children who were at crisis point before covid having to wait another 4-5 months before their CAMHS appointment.

 

[Scouse]

How do our surplus suicide rates due to covid compare to other countries

Dunno about that - but the experts in the field say that the UK isn't experiencing a massive uptick in suicide and that that media-driven narrative is hindering an adult discussion of where mental health help post-lockdown should go.

 

[Bodhi]

Fine. Covid deaths have been running at over 2000 a day, for quite some time. 120,000 in the year. Even if your headline figure there was directly attributable to covid lockdowns (rather than NHS capacity) that's still more than double non-COVID deaths.

Strange, looking at the very well maintained UK Dashboard, our highest daily total was 1279, so whilst still pretty bad, nowhere near the 2000 a day you mention. Even doing the basic calculation of 120,000 / 365, doesn't get you anywhere near the 2,000 number.

So if you can't get that right, do I really need to go further?

 

[Raven]

Anyway, meanwhile, in the real world.

Covid-19: Vaccine as good in 'real world' as in trial in Israel

The Pfizer vaccine prevented 94% of infections in a group of 600,000 Israeli patients.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[DaGaffer]

Strange, looking at the very well maintained UK Dashboard, our highest daily total was 1279, so whilst still pretty bad, nowhere near the 2000 a day you mention. Even doing the basic calculation of 120,000 / 365, doesn't get you anywhere near the 2,000 number.

So if you can't get that right, do I really need to go further?

@Scouse is wrong but so are you. Peak deaths in the UK was 1820 deaths on Jan 21st (I'm guessing you're looking at the weekly average) and there have been quite a few days well above 1279.

 

[Bodhi]

@Scouse is wrong but so are you. Peak deaths in the UK was 1820 deaths on Jan 21st (I'm guessing you're looking at the weekly average) and there have been quite a few days well above 1279.

Official UK Coronavirus Dashboard

GOV.UK Coronavirus dashboard

coronavirus.data.gov.uk

Peak is on the 19th of January at 1279.

 

[Scouse]

@Scouse is wrong but so are you.

Yeah - peak deaths were hitting near the 2000 mark. I wasn't going to get bogged down in pedantism when @Bodhi's numbers, whilst horrid (even if true), simply don't come anywhere close to changing the balance.

Covid is killing way more people than lockdowns. At first @Bodhi was harping on about mental health and deaths caused by that - which are negligable.

Now he's moved onto "non-Covid excess death", which are higher but don't change the equation. (And also - not attributable to lockdowns, but largely because the NHS can't cope with Covid.)

Whichever way the fucking idiot squirms, whatever flips and twists and bullshit tactics he turns to - lockdowns save lives.

 

[Scouse]

Peak is on the 19th of January at 1279.

I guess BoJo was appauled at the 1820 figure for nothing then.


Either way. Mental health, right? That's what you're concerned with?

 

[Raven]

People still claiming we would be better off with no lockdown. Not a lot of point in engaging with such staggering idiocy.

I just hope we can come out of lockdown when the time is right, gradually and safely, based on the current data and lastly, for the last time.

Restrictions on travel will likely have to remain, especially with countries still faffing about with vaccination delivery.

 

[Moriath]

People still claiming we would be better off with no lockdown. Not a lot of point in engaging with such staggering idiocy.

I just hope we can come out of lockdown when the time is right, gradually and safely, based on the current data and lastly, for the last time.

Restrictions on travel will likely have to remain, especially with countries still faffing about with vaccination delivery.

Seems weird that seeing we had 120k deaths with lockdowns and proof that the lockdowns bought the amount of infected down in the country that you cannot see that the deaths would be a lot higher if the lockdowns were not in effect.

yes there maybe some casualties of the lockdown but its no where near the 120k that have died and the probably more than double that would have done if there were not enough beds or oxygen to nurse those with it.

 

[Bodhi]

I guess BoJo was appauled at the 1820 figure for nothing then.


Either way. Mental health, right? That's what you're concerned with?

So a newspaper report is now more factual than actual Government data now is it? OK m8, you keep catching air over that shark, it's fucking amusing to watch.

And yes, mental health is one of my concerns. Along with missed treatments, missed cancer screenings, kids missing a year of development, the rise in alcohol and other poisonings, the incoming suicide numbers, the business failures and the basic breakdown of society (as can be seen by the Holden related curtain twitching over someone seeing their mother) - oh, and the £400bn bill to pay for all of it.

I hope for your sake that we can prove that we've saved hundreds of thousands of lives tbh. Looking at places like Florida, Sweden or Japan suggests that really isn't going to be the case.

 

[caLLous]

So a newspaper report is now more factual than actual Government data now is it? OK m8, you keep catching air over that shark, it's fucking amusing to watch.

It's a bit awkward that you didn't scroll down to the second chart on the link that you yourself provided to see where that number came from.

Also, the *daily* (not 7-day average) "by date of death" peak on January 19th was 1,356, not 1,279.

 

[DaGaffer]

Official UK Coronavirus Dashboard

GOV.UK Coronavirus dashboard

coronavirus.data.gov.uk

Peak is on the 19th of January at 1279.

That's the 7 day average. I was right, you're reading it wrong.

Look on the next slide down. Or the WHO data, its the same.

 

[Moriath]

So a newspaper report is now more factual than actual Government data now is it? OK m8, you keep catching air over that shark, it's fucking amusing to watch.

And yes, mental health is one of my concerns. Along with missed treatments, missed cancer screenings, kids missing a year of development, the rise in alcohol and other poisonings, the incoming suicide numbers, the business failures and the basic breakdown of society (as can be seen by the Holden related curtain twitching over someone seeing their mother) - oh, and the £400bn bill to pay for all of it.

I hope for your sake that we can prove that we've saved hundreds of thousands of lives tbh. Looking at places like Florida, Sweden or Japan suggests that really isn't going to be the case.

But with the hospitals over run how could we not be saving people as there would be no room to put additional people on ventilators. If we had an r of 3 it would be twice or more the number within days of 50k infections.

also it has no repercussions on @Scouse if its proved or not. So why do you say for your sake?

 

[Scouse]

The next pandemic? It may already be upon us | Laura Spinney

Antimicrobial resistance won’t race across the world like Covid-19, but its effects will be devastating, says science writer Laura Spinney

www.theguardian.com

 

[Yoni]

Yeah - peak deaths were hitting near the 2000 mark. I wasn't going to get bogged down in pedantism when @Bodhi's numbers, whilst horrid (even if true), simply don't come anywhere close to changing the balance.

Covid is killing way more people than lockdowns. At first @Bodhi was harping on about mental health and deaths caused by that - which are negligable.

Now he's moved onto "non-Covid excess death", which are higher but don't change the equation. (And also - not attributable to lockdowns, but largely because the NHS can't cope with Covid.)

Whichever way the fucking idiot squirms, whatever flips and twists and bullshit tactics he turns to - lockdowns save lives.

Deaths nearly 2k mark is not deaths exceeding 2k ( your earlier post...) please use facts not guesses - Bodhi has always advocated for deaths not associated to CV19 if you scroll back and look you can read it oO.

 

[Scouse]

1) no he hasn't. He changed his tune from mental health to non-covid excess death
2) it makes fuck all difference anyway