Constructive Stealth RvR Query

[kaod]

Originally posted by Tranquil-
So Doublefrost is bad then? Low damage, hard to get in right?
DF/SQ/IB doesn't do bad damage though.

And I don't mean greys when saying soft targets.

Anyway, I'm not going further into the assassin field. You know what damage you do and I can't see many complains about that from SB's.

Ok, I was being deliberately evasive with my answer - I don't use LA styles cos my LA skill is so low.

 

[old.Finster]

sorry, but considering the easily discernible death spam caused by certain scouts at mfg stand offs and sieges i can only shake my head at certain points here.

you rolled a stealth class to be able to pound ppl with impunity at 2100 range (if you re not nearsighted).

don t come here and whine about losing to an assassin that is backed by 3 melee str relics.

go to the dev boards and whine about pbt that s refreshing at insane rate while stacked and steals most of the kills that should be yours.

regards, Finster <Nolby Pride>

 

[belth]

Originally posted by kaod


Ok, I was being deliberately evasive with my answer - I don't use LA styles cos my LA skill is so low.

But you use 2 weapons anyhow? M'kay...

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by belth


But you use 2 weapons anyhow? M'kay...

3 actually. And I use dual wield cos of the Bladeturn and swing speed. Depends largely on what I'm up against 2h, dual wield, shield user etc.

 

[skile]

"I thought that was self-evident. Making two differeing statments within about 2 posts of each other like:

Scouts are the worst class.
Scouts can solo unbuffed sb if everything goes right.

doesn't really make much sense. If in your opinion a scout is clearly the worst class without argument, how could you solo all unbuffed sb?"

Can is one thing. Can hides in percentage, chance. The chance is VERY low to win vs a buffed SB (I said buffed). I've done it, fair and square. No TS. But the chances are VERY low.

That should answer your question.

"Most SB unbuffed can't solo a tank in straight melee standing toe to toe."

Again, I said buffed OR not buffed shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Belthazor soloed a 50 RR3 champ 3 times a row, and as we all know he plays unbuffed. I've seen SB's take down tank and tanks with 3 hits, killing like 2 tanks and 1 cleric or something. Unbuffed SB? Those don't take on tanks generally and don't kill targets solo. Buffed do, and they solo em like they solo a blue gobbo basically. Thats to much.

Assasins need to be nerfed.

"Give an enemy an easy target and he will attack.
If emain is that bad, go somewhere else. You obviously by the sounds of it keep trying to get through milegates solo and die - you are just giving easy rps to ppl, and its a simple fact that ppl will always gravitate to the areas that good, and safer rps can be made. "

Did u read what I said, I can't go odins either. Since maingate is camped there as well by SB's/Nightshades. Where do u want me to go? HW? Well u see 1 enemy/3 hours there.

About Scoutchanges. Firstly, theres a great difference in explaining why a class is shit and having great ideas for it. But what I do get in mind are some compensation for hunters selfbuffs, pets, better melee and rangers selfbuffs, DW styles. Due to the purge-wave and the massive amount of good pbt grouped the scout is totally and utterly gimped with it's slow bow and purged slams. We need something, speedbuff I wouldn't mind, volley & longshot in bowspec. That should make it a bit more fair.

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by old.Finster
sorry, but considering the easily discernible death spam caused by certain scouts at mfg stand offs and sieges i can only shake my head at certain points here.

you rolled a stealth class to be able to pound ppl with impunity at 2100 range (if you re not nearsighted).

don t come here and whine about losing to an assassin that is backed by 3 melee str relics.

go to the dev boards and whine about pbt that s refreshing at insane rate while stacked and steals most of the kills that should be yours.

regards, Finster <Nolby Pride>

I'm sorry, but are you reading my posts? I am not after pounding people with impunity as you so lightly put it. Can you please point out where I do?

Where have I whined about assassins owning me in melee? I have been talking about evading arrows, as you know strength relics does NOT AFFECT EVADE.

As a matter of fact I even said that assassins SHOULD own me on THEIR turf, close up, not on my turf when I have the advantage which is called range.

 

[skile]

Originally posted by old.Finster
sorry, but considering the easily discernible death spam caused by certain scouts at mfg stand offs and sieges i can only shake my head at certain points here.

you rolled a stealth class to be able to pound ppl with impunity at 2100 range (if you re not nearsighted).

don t come here and whine about losing to an assassin that is backed by 3 melee str relics.

go to the dev boards and whine about pbt that s refreshing at insane rate while stacked and steals most of the kills that should be yours.

regards, Finster <Nolby Pride>

Are keepraids common, no? Scouts are good in raids and defences. But SB's are fun and quite good as well. Quite balanced id say. We can shoot hard from range, but do we ever hit (pulsing blade turn ffs) ? We won't with a hard hitting bow, we have to use huntingbow. Which makes us hunters basically. So to hell with the Heavy Longbow.

Rangers and hunters has become better, scouts have become worse. Why? Slam & Ra's. Rangers are not dependable on slam, therefor a IP removal for them don't affect them much except make them better. Hunters should win vs a scout due to the pet, which is good and interupts you. U will first get ganked by pet and then by hunter. And scouts can't block all that. Neither use slam with good effect.

With purge (long time ago), what once made the scout comparable to other archer classes with their selfbuffs, damage adds, pets etc. We need something special to compete.

It's not right if u need a buffbot as assasin to compete in emain. The one with the most money (That can afford buffbot and a 2nd computer) are the ones who get the advantage. This is shitty, we don't live in USA. We live in a less capitalistic Europe.

 

[old.LandShark]

Out of interest, what do you consider should happen in the grey area? Critblade who doesn't land his perf chain and has no stun style, vs archer who has no range advantage? Genuinely curious...
Honestly confuses me that Mythic ever let assassins - well, alright, shadowblades and infiltrators - spec to kill without needing to perf or land any positional style...
I mean, a good SZ will open with snowsquall or whatever your back positional is, but even if that is missed they still win...

 

[Tranquil-]

Good question! :F

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by skile
Can is one thing. Can hides in percentage, chance. The chance is VERY low to win vs a buffed SB (I said buffed). I've done it, fair and square. No TS. But the chances are VERY low.

Ok, sorry but I’ll have to pull in what you actually said here then:
I'd reckon I could win against every SB out there tho, if every thing goes right.

Again chance, but from that statement it infers high probability and no buff state.
That’s where the confusion came from.
Unbuffed Scout v Buffed SB – yeah, you probably are going to lose in melee.

---------------

"Most SB unbuffed can't solo a tank in straight melee standing toe to toe."

Originally posted by skile
Again, I said buffed OR not buffed shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Belthazor soloed a 50 RR3 champ 3 times a row, and as we all know he plays unbuffed. I've seen SB's take down tank and tanks with 3 hits, killing like 2 tanks and 1 cleric or something. Unbuffed SB? Those don't take on tanks generally and don't kill targets solo. Buffed do, and they solo em like they solo a blue gobbo basically. Thats to much.

Assasins need to be nerfed.
[/B]

And yet again you’re really confusing the issue. An unbuffed inf can solo a RR3 champ. Ok. (Problem with Inf being too strong by your logic)
Buffed SB can take down tanks, and grps with tanks. Ok. (Buff problem)
Unbuffed SB don’t take on tanks and don’t kill solo….. (SB problem due to them being too weak unbuffed)

So the solution is to nerf assassins????

You need to rethink your logic here. Is the problem buffs or assassins?
------

Originally posted by skile
SB's can solo tanks, buffed or unbuffed shouldn't matter. Sb's need nerfs.
[/B]

Which class is buffed here?

-----------------

Originally posted by skile
Did u read what I said, I can't go odins either. Since maingate is camped there as well by SB's/Nightshades. Where do u want me to go? HW? Well u see 1 enemy/3 hours there. [/B]

Well it’s your choice. 1 enemy /3hours or by your evaluation about 8 SB/milegate constantly.
I really don’t want to start a personal war, but if you are experiencing problems getting through chokepoints with ANY class, and beat your head against a wall by going back time and time again – SOLO – you really need to rethink your tactics.

Don’t whine at the enemy for doing what they do during a wargame if it’s all legal, blame either yourself or your realm-mates for not asking/providing the support you need at various stages of your gameplay.
Plenty of albs leave the tk, and I can only assume all 3 realms do the same, ppl stand around waiting for large parties to leave to get through the chokepoints safely.

I bet the scouts are just like the mages, and are the first to be loving it when they are heavily camping the milegate in either a stand-off or a large gank party.
That is probably where a scout excels… not at being able to run solo through a 3 metre space without it’s natural predator ripping it to pieces.

------------------

Originally posted by skile
About Scoutchanges. Firstly, theres a great difference in explaining why a class is shit and having great ideas for it. [/B]

Not really. 5-spec SB – IMO shit. Kills too slowly which leaves it vulnerable.
Solution to improve it, melee dmg increase or maybe even a RA like Vanish.
Melee dmg increase doesn’t work cos it makes the SB too imbalanced for SZ and crit – vanish works, cos hey it’s better than shadowrun.
Doesn’t benefit a SZ too much at all, and benefits a critblade which is supposedly the classic way to spec the class.

Easy. It’s an idea – problems with it? Maybe. But if you don’t hang ‘em out, they may never get taken in.

Originally posted by skile
But what I do get in mind are some compensation for hunters selfbuffs, pets, better melee and rangers selfbuffs, DW styles. [/B]

Shield styles, longer range on bow. Each of the bow classes have something different, I can’t see it being THAT imbalanced.

Originally posted by skile
Due to the purge-wave and the massive amount of good pbt grouped the scout is totally and utterly gimped with it's slow bow and purged slams. [/B]

Then your class is obviously more designed for large scale conflicts where you can hit at range and get support from other classes, or working with another scout to rip open a BT. You “No-Shit” my comment about playing a class to it’s strengths and trying to cover its weaknesses, yet seem intent of banging away at a solo-life that obviously doesn’t work for you.

Originally posted by skile
We need something, speedbuff I wouldn't mind, volley & longshot in bowspec. That should make it a bit more fair. [/B]

Speedbuff? Those buffed SB would just cripple you. Volley and longshot are no good to your plight… you hit 3 with the volley and the other 5 will tear you a new dumphole.

The solution to these problems isn’t going to come from fixing the class itself.
IMHO, from what you say, it’s the way that you play it.

 

[Tranquil-]

Read the posts from Oaklief in this thread, it's originally about Volley, but he clears up alot of misconceptions aswell as some description of archer accuracy.

Page 3 has most of it.

http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=46121892&replies=76

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by skile

With purge (long time ago), what once made the scout comparable to other archer classes with their selfbuffs, damage adds, pets etc. We need something special to compete.

It's not right if u need a buffbot as assasin to compete in emain. The one with the most money (That can afford buffbot and a 2nd computer) are the ones who get the advantage. This is shitty, we don't live in USA. We live in a less capitalistic Europe.

So if the shield is so useless, get a respec stone, drop your shield to 0 - can't defend with it, no point in the possible slam, raise your thrust to 50 to get increased weapon dmg, get SC items to increase dex/qui/str to cap stats, and rely on evade 3 and your raised stats to allow evades for dragonfang.
Even if it's purged, you get the benefit of increased weapon damage so no real loss.

SC items might be expensive, but hey, this is the highly capitalistic nature of the game now.

 

[Tranquil-]

Not really, 1H melee doesn't give alot of room for alot of damage. The few percent extra damage going from a medium melee template to a high melee template doesn't give alot of bang for the buck considering the low base damage on the 1H's.

 

[Glottis_Xanadu]

Originally posted by old.Finster
you rolled a stealth class to be able to pound ppl with impunity at 2100 range (if you re not nearsighted).

don t come here and whine about losing to an assassin that is backed by 3 melee str relics.

While several scouts on a milegate does cause death among you, a solo scout can never, ever of his life kill a caster who has half a brain. (P)bt absorbs blow, he runs in opposite dir... problem solved, while pets ganks the crap out the scout. I cannot wait for pets to lose track after stealth....
But scouts at the moment only really leech rp's, we are hardly responsible for as much rp's as SB's are. Scouts used to be overpowered before (p)bt, then they were balanced, now with fumble/miss rate and see hidden, they are gimped.
We do not kill with impunity, assasins kill with impunity...
Regards, Glottis

 

[Gekul]

Originally posted by Trinilim


Not flaming or anything, but tbh, I have NEVER seen an unbuffed SB.

Not saying they don't exist, but a very rare breed don't use buffbots.

You think an unbuffed Shadowblade is going to attempt a friar? I saw you running around in your pink leather solo, decided to give it a miss

And unbuffed Shadowblades killing tanks toe to toe, unlikely.

PBT doesn't only affect archers btw, think I ran in to a group with 2 wardens yesterday

 

[Gekul]

Skile referring to IP:

It's still on a 30 min timer...

The same 30 mins purge is on by any chance?

 

[Tranquil-]

Though purge is cheaper than IP.

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by Tranquil-
Not really, 1H melee doesn't give alot of room for alot of damage. The few percent extra damage going from a medium melee template to a high melee template doesn't give alot of bang for the buck considering the low base damage on the 1H's.

Thanks for your comments here on this.
Out of interest, if you were allowed to use a 2H purely by speccing thrust or slash, would you consider it a major improvment then?

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by kaod

Thanks for your comments here on this.
Out of interest, if you were allowed to use a 2H purely by speccing thrust or slash, would you consider it a major improvment then?

Depends on the implementation and what weaponskillrange it will have, but a scout wielding a 2H is not something I want.

Also it won't fit into Mythics vision of the Scout being the more defensive of the archers.

 

[kinadold]

You can debate about evade, pbt, buffs and so on.

Fact is archers are a stealth class which skills are mostly 'designed' for solo. A cleric or sorc is simply better in a group than an archer. Archers have no group abilities whatsoever,
and what they contribute to a group can mostly be done better
by all other classes. In old days archers had the power to kill
fast and good chance of survival. Now they are freefrags, they cant kill much, and pretty easy for assasins to kill.

Mythic removed solo abilities, but did not bother to enhance
group abilities. Trust me when it comes to damagedealing and
utility, a mage is far superior in a group.

Also scouts are the archers, who got nerfed most atm.

Scout : Worst armor, worst melee ( no styles ), no buffs, no getaway like speedspell, no insta pet, face more pbt and so on and so on. Only good thing is slam, but most people have purge,
so in 1on1 it aint that good, and it cost 42 spec points to get.

Archers should be taken back to be good solo killer, just like assasins, or have their group abilities improved. Not something
like better volley, which cost rp. An archer need to be rr7+ to just have essential tools.

 

[aavarn]

The IP change is neutral in discussing whether SBs vs Infils has changed as both lost it. The net 40% dmg will make a big difference, yes - thats an incentive for Albs to pull their fingers out, get organised and recapture the 3 relics they lost. If you choose to respec it into defensive RAs whilst Mid SBs pile it into Offence then of course you are going to notice Mid damage increase beyond your own.

Speaking as a Mid, we have put up with Infils doing insane dmg and basically being a death sentence for solo light tanks for long enough - its nice to know that my Thane now has a decent chance against an Infil - it never should have been any other way. Stealthing assassins weren't created to destroy tanks - its other stealthers and casters they should be hunting down.

Its not a case of Albs being gimped or anything else other than disorganised - its just simply that the albs now are having to get used to the handicap that the other realms have suffered for so long and they really don't like it. I am afraid its going to be a case of get used to it or get the relics back - no sympathy from here Because Midgard hasn't had the strength relics for ages the players try to squeeze every point of damage they can out of their specs and SC sets of armour - the incentive hasn't quite been there for Albs because the damage has historically been pretty rocking (certainly felt that way from the receiving end) and I am sure folks in Albion adopted the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude.

I guess what I am saying is that I think Albion has been taking that 20% relic bonus to melee dmg for granted - it is going to take some adjustment, but eventually when specs, etc have been adjusted (maybe even with tweaks from Mythic as needed) and the relics are recaptured (as the cycle turns around again at some point in future) then albs will have optimised characters ALSO getting the 20%.

As for SC - again its something that you can benefit as well as suffer from so it should be neutral in effect and it does enable the classes with the most spec lines (eg the assassins) to get the most out of them in turns of bonusses to spec lines (eg you can rely on getting 50 stealth/envenom at rr4 with a spec of 36 stealth). It should also ensure you can get weapon spec close to or greater than lev 50 which results in bonus to damage too.

One caveat however - the envenom spec just became a lot weaker since most people will be walking about with a minimum of 26% body resist base (my Thane has 31% base [Dwarf]) before the buffers go to work to increase it further. If your spec relied heavily on envenom then you will suffer even more. Mid SBs are certainly switching their envenom spec for Left Axe to replace the poison damage with the Doublefrost style [no opening] gained at 34 Left Axe to compensate - maybe there is some equivalent respec in Albion you could try to help increase damage output?

 

[kinadold]

Give us insta ae mezz/stun on a chainwearer, end buffs, pbt and nearsight on main nuker class, pbaoe on mezz class and you can keep the relics

 

[Glottis_Xanadu]

Originally posted by aavarn
Its not a case of Albs being gimped or anything else other than disorganised - its just simply that the albs now are having to get used to the handicap that the other realms have suffered for so long and they really don't like it. I am afraid its going to be a case of get used to it or get the relics back - no sympathy from here (more text here)
I guess what I am saying is that I think Albion has been taking that 20% relic bonus to melee dmg for granted - it is going to take some adjustment, but eventually when specs, etc have been adjusted (maybe even with tweaks from Mythic as needed) and the relics are recaptured (as the cycle turns around again at some point in future) then albs will have optimised characters ALSO getting the 20%.

Cannot believe you seriously claim Albs are not gimped.
Things were still not fair with a 20% melee bonus, Albs were still being owned.. You can put it to stupid, ignorant players all you like, but you know it is complete crap. Each realm has it fools, and good players.
But fact is, Albs are gimped, not disorganised. We lost the relic at 9 am on a saturday. Prime time according to the great Mids that took the relic. This after we had retaken the keeps during the night... it was not like Albs do not care, it is just that no players were on...
Regards, Glottis

 

[Agreac]

Originally posted by Glottis_Xanadu
it was not like Albs do not care, it is just that no players were on...

Where do you come up with all this bullshit?

 

[jua-cosmos-jua]

the nerf with ip was just to stop the chain kills you know monster kills and the killing zerker hero and all thos big tanks shit . Right now sbs are more anti-scout.mincers with the see hidden and purge + they have relics.. its pretty simple

 

[aavarn]

Originally posted by Glottis_Xanadu


But fact is, Albs are gimped, not disorganised. We lost the relic at 9 am on a saturday. Prime time according to the great Mids that took the relic. This after we had retaken the keeps during the night... it was not like Albs do not care, it is just that no players were on...

No - you didn't take the Keeps back - you left them because you are too disorganised which is what made our morning raid so much easier. Apathy cost you those relics, plain and simple, as many albs have confirmed.

And to address some other points:

I would have thought you would want Mids to have pbt on a caster - from the mid point of view the hibs having it on a scale wearer is a complete nightmare - at least you get to kill our pbt in about 2/3 hits, frigging wardens take a lot of beating down. As for mezzers and stunners being chain wearers in Mid - don't think this is especially relevant - most of the stunning/mezzing goes on in the first few seconds of a fight - for armour to be a factor you would have to be talking about the latter stages of a fight.

PBAoE on a mezz class - Do you seriously think having PBAoe and single target mezz in the same spec line is a massive advantage? I don't think so.

As for the gimp thing - you have any idea what the damage differential between a chain wearing Mid hitting plate and a plate wearing alb hitting chain with 20% dmg bonus is like? Compare the damage Albs were doing with 2H weaps to Middy tanks to the damage Middy tanks did to albs then - Mid isn't even in same ballpark, simply because Plate is so much better than chain. Getting the relics has helped us alot in this respect and hindered you.

Saying albs are gimped is just too strong - its not the case. There was a time when there was no question albs wer dominant - as a result of this Mids and Hibs have been 'balanced' to try and equalise. The result may be a slight imbalance, but the fact is Albs have got used to being the superior race in terms of class choices, armour, numbers of players and are now throwing all their toys out of the pram when i it gets a bit more difficult.

If Mythic have overbalanced then no doubt they will get round to readdressing the imbalance they have caused at some point and so you will see loads of Hib and Mids moaning about them being gimped and Albs being overpowered, principally because the status quo has changed.

Now on top of the rebalancing you lost 3 relics - this makes a massive difference to your realm.

 

[Runolaz]

Originally posted by Glottis_Xanadu

This after we had retaken the keeps during the night... it was not like Albs do not care, it is just that no players were on...
Regards, Glottis

omfg...what planet are you from??

 

[Gorbash]

well, heres my opinion on the matter,

before the middies took the relics, i could do to a sb about the same as he would do to me, which was fine cos it promised an equal chance of winning or loosing.

example of the damage is about 150-200 a hit each.

2 days ago in emain, i went up against an sb.

i hit him with garrote (anytime crit strike style) for 64(-37).
it hit me with its garrote for 530....... Twice! and it wasnt a PA style cos it was unstealthed at the time.

ive even started fights with sbs by PAing them for 15% of thier health, and then getting royally slaughtered in 3-4 hits

i dont mind loosing, but theres no fun in never winning.

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by Gorbash
well, heres my opinion on the matter,

before the middies took the relics, i could do to a sb about the same as he would do to me, which was fine cos it promised an equal chance of winning or loosing.

example of the damage is about 150-200 a hit each.

2 days ago in emain, i went up against an sb.

i hit him with garrote (anytime crit strike style) for 64(-37).
it hit me with its garrote for 530....... Twice! and it wasnt a PA style cos it was unstealthed at the time.

ive even started fights with sbs by PAing them for 15% of thier health, and then getting royally slaughtered in 3-4 hits

i dont mind loosing, but theres no fun in never winning.

Now infils have to try to get their kills


a lot of SBs still die to infiltrators, just tends to be the higher RR ones

 

[Carlos Bananos]

also remember, most SBs on this server are specced to kill assasins