Constructive Stealth RvR Query

[skile]

Heh. I'd take it by logics every (or almost) SB has buffs. Since I notice a mayor difference, no matter of RR between those I kill (not many unbuffed, it they are they group). And you are only hitting yourself in the foot with the excuse thing. HOW should you judge SKILL if people have buffs? You can't really know. Only way you can face a unbuffed SB is outside your borderkeep, and trust me. I've noticed the difference between emain and your borderkeep (whatever the name is).

About the Teleportkeep-thingy. It was a joke. A class should not be played like that, you should not even thing in those ways.

I'd reckon there are more SB's out there than infs? therefor more maingate camping. About 90-95% of the times I meet a SB/SB's there are 2 ganking on me.

Scout is the worst class, give me some arguments please instead of "oh whine more".

 

[skile]

I like grouping, but it's not like you get groups with a scout. If you don't like w8ing at atk for 30 mins.

 

[kaod]

So we go from this comment:

Originally posted by skile
Heh. I'd take it by logics every (or almost) SB has buffs. Since I notice a mayor difference, no matter of RR between those I kill (not many unbuffed, it they are they group). And you are only hitting yourself in the foot with the excuse thing. HOW should you judge SKILL if people have buffs? You can't really know.

Sure its not you hitting yourself in the foot with your arrow from 1m?
To this one:

Originally posted by skile
Scout is the worst class, give me some arguments please instead of "oh whine more". [/B]

Please, if you wish to "quote" me, at least have the decency to put something I actually said.

Originally posted by skile
Scouts are now the worst class in game. We are, no point in argue. Rangers are better these days. We would be good if RA's never were introduced.

And then the original one that seems to contradict everything that came after:

Originally posted by skile
I'd reckon I could win against every SB out there tho, if every thing goes right. Slam and +50% hp left before I get it in.[/B]

How can I debate the issue with someone who can't make their own mind up? By your logic, SB are the worst class in the game.

You are right though, unless you face them on an even playing field you will never know. However, what exactly is an even playing field? Are we to base this purely on being unbuffed?
Well you state:

Originally posted by skile
Only way you can face a unbuffed SB is outside your borderkeep, and trust me. I've noticed the difference between emain and your borderkeep (whatever the name is).

That will give a result - but not necessarily a fair one.
My point here - and this is where I am trying to being constructive - is that each class obviously needs to play to it's strengths. Not only in a style that suits the strengths of the class, but the strengths of the spec they use and the situation you are in. More often than not, the situation that you find yourself in is a lot of your own making A scout, like a SB should have patience and wait for the moments to make their kill. Else, you probably end up with the same result on both sides.
Scouts benefit from cover of any sort, yet killing outside svasud faste (our uppland border keep) is all well and good, but it doesn't take long for a SB with see hidden to come out and expose your weaknesses.
Location and proximity to others is a very important part of playing to your strength.

Therefore, my opinion on which class is the weakest is simple.
Don't know, don't particularly care.
My SB is pretty weak in many situations, but I still have fun and get kills here and there.
Unless you duel 1v1 in every concieveable area of terrain, set psychological buffers/barriers like chance of friends/enemies coming into area and then take into account the luck factor - it's too hard to call.

Like I said, you TS me, chances are I'm going to die if you get the crit shot and hits - if you miss the shots I might be able to kill you.
If I uncover you with a PA, chances are you'll die - If I miss PA, chances are you can kill me.
A zerker in the face of a mage... a mage at a great distance from a zerker, and so on and so forth.

Originally posted by skile
About the Teleportkeep-thingy. It was a joke. A class should not be played like that, you should not even thing in those ways.

There is a scout called Sniper that I'm fairly certain employs this tactic in alb-df entrance. Might be wrong, but he has a great knack for sticking arrows right where it hurts.
/salute to the guy/girl for that.
Not thinking in such ways and ruling things out is not really a good mindset for broadening your skillbase, but I kind of assume you didn't really mean it like that.

Originally posted by skile
I'd reckon there are more SB's out there than infs? therefor more maingate camping. About 90-95% of the times I meet a SB/SB's there are 2 ganking on me.

Out where? And why does having more mean they all want to camp TK's or milegates?

I'll explain to you what happens:

This is emain - Arrive at TK - buff of course and kiss our gay buffbots before we leave. (Couldn't resist the dig, sorry)

For the SB that wants to zerg - join up and leave in a long train, to maybe camp, maybe just roam from mmg to amg to atk and back - go to the usual routes you'd expect ppl to take, as sitting camping behind the grannys usually ends up with ppl getting bored.
Solo SB - leave TK. No contact on the way to mmg.
Arrive mmg - Maybe see another SB, maybe more - maybe run into an alb stealth blockage.
Camp MMG - and yes - you might find yourself tripping over other SB that are camping there as you start to gravitate toward a target that comes and then scrap like vultures for the kill.
Same at ATK, same at AMG.

I won't deny SB go out in groups of between 2-8, I've done it plenty of times myself.
You do though, tend to be scrapping in "hot-spots" with other SB that are similarly solo - thus the idea of a constant "zerg" is conceived.

Now, if you and some other Albs on BW can't comprehend this, it's a true shame. It's extremely annoying to see "SB" "Elite" "Buff(ed)" "Zerg" "losers" "lame" "sad" "gay" all the time in every post that menntions a SB.
I've seen other chars in groups - non stealthers, who are buffed to the eyeballs by bots, but sadly it appears that SB are the the only class in the game that do it.

Originally posted by skile
I like grouping, but it's not like you get groups with a scout. If you don't like w8ing at atk for 30 mins.

This is how I see that SB started out - and after being handed their asses by duos of mincer/inf/scout variations, we were forced to group. Maybe it was cos the albs ran into hunters/Sb working in tandem or small groups - but how quickly it spreads and the blame gets placed.

 

[Gekul]

Originally posted by skile
Only way you can face a unbuffed SB is outside your borderkeep, and trust me. I've noticed the difference between emain and your borderkeep (whatever the name is).

The majority of people coming out of svasud will be rez sick too, ofcourse there's a difference.

 

[mirak_naijmi]

First of all, this whining about buffbots and sb zergs being so HUGE in midgard. It seems as if it cant stay out of any topic althou the starter ask you not to! SBs just as infils do groups sometimes. But you must see the difference in us grouping and amg just being crowded. Mostly when i am at amg(i always go solo sometimes duo with a FoM friend) there are about 6-7 other sbs there. But we are seldom grouped..its just camped. And i dont think midgard sbs uses more buffbots than albion does. In my guild i know 1 lvl 50 sb that does. And we are like 10 lvl 50 sbs. Nuff whining!

As for youre getting ganked problem, im pretty sure its the relics. We do much more damage, i sometimes 2 shot infils and scouts now, and i dont use buffbot. But it was the same when u had the relics. Sometimes i could beat infils aslong as they also where unbuffed, but i didnt stand a chance against buffed one. And this is the way it is. But do what we want you to! Try and take the relics back! There is nothing as fun as keepdefending/attacking so im waiting for you

 

[kinadold]

TS is best in groups, since most sbs are buffed. They dont have
skills like old creep, so they need the buffs. Dont buy ts to solo sbs, buy it to gank them with fg. 8 vs 1+buffbot feels damn good.

Call me ingame and we make some ganking squads.

 

[belth]

SBs think they're Elite, because they're Buffed and Zerg, but instead they're losers, lame and sad gays.

 

[old.Leel]

Haha, Kinad. you're right, archers with TS ARE wanted for groups. Makes for some easy rp when uncovering a stealth zerg with a fg And all realms can do this.

 

[fedexx]

haha, here comes the whine threads!!
lol

(some cheese?)

 

[old.Finster]

here comes a real reasonable answer from an ol'man:

you posted that you ve been away quite a bit... maybe you overlook a very important other factor:

it s not long since sbs got decent SC on their weapons and equipment. we do not have the spec points of infiltrators to buy everything we want. most sb templates are more or less compromises on a very low budget in hope of better rr.

so if the usual 5 spec sb with 38, 36 or even 34 base axe and 39 or 44 left axe suddenly gets +11 spec from item (which he couldn t get previously) his axe spec will suddenly go from way below 50 to 55 or even over 60 for SZs.

MULTIPLY that damage increase from weaponskill and styled damage with the relics and you get closer to the truth.

you don t notice much on an infiltrator going from 55 to 65 or 66 thrust spec. but raising axe and LA from well below 50 to 60 is worlds apart.

regards, Finster <Nolby Pride>

<hands Aeiedel a cookie. need to talk of old times>

 

[Tranquil-]

Mwaha, the bullshit posted here amazes me

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by Snakester.
shouldnt be able to evade a arrow travelling at 150mph anyway , full stop.

In a world where Trolls turn into Giant Gerbils, Celtic men can mutate into moose, ppl can shoot electricity, fire, ice etc out of their hands, ppl can become invisible and others can raise the dead.... evading an arrow is unbelievable?

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by belth
SBs think they're Elite, because they're Buffed and Zerg, but instead they're losers, lame and sad gays.

lol yeah Belth... and we all wanna "buff" you up.

 

[Tranquil-]

Evading arrows has nothing to do with realism or the lack of it.

If we shoot at assassins whom are unstealthed or ones we can see with True Sight we can't use Critshot because moving in stealth is counted as running and as everyone knows we can't Critshot running targets. Arrows are already very easily evaded due to the high modified dex/qui and the high evadeskill assassins have contra the low tohit chance archery has.

When archers have the advantage(read range) and are attacking an assassin with archery, the assassins should be just as vulnerable as an archer is in melee against an assassin.

On our turf we should have the advantage, on your turf you HAVE the advantage.

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by Tranquil-
Evading arrows has nothing to do with realism or the lack of it.

If we shoot at assassins whom are unstealthed or ones we can see with True Sight we can't use Critshot because moving in stealth is counted as running and as everyone knows we can't Critshot running targets. Arrows are already very easily evaded due to the high modified dex/qui and the high evadeskill assassins have contra the low tohit chance archery has.

When archers have the advantage(read range) and are attacking an assassin with archery, the assassins should be just as vulnerable as an archer is in melee against an assassin.

On our turf we should have the advantage, on your turf you HAVE the advantage.

Totally agree on the vulnerability, and I would have to say that with my SB unbuffed, I rarely evade an arrow. With my Hunter buffed, I rarely get evaded.
If I get TS'd by a scout or ranger, 99 times out of 100 I am going to die, and that's acceptable.
However, I would argue that equality is measured in many other ways.

SB evade is obviously part of our defensive nature, and is now ofc capped and we are now weakened in melee durability due to lack of IP.
I'm not complaining about this issue, but if scouts are to work as deadeye snipers properly and become (too over)skilled (obviously depends on your opinion of this very issue which is the case here)v evade, they would surely have to lose a bit more on their ability to melee and I would say that would mean losing shield styles and/or IP.

I would still say that SC/buffs/skills, luck and starting stats are the cause for any evades.

I would be really interested in seeing some scout data or log to see in how many battles and v whom these evades occur though, because I only have my own personal experiences of being peppered with arrows and a 24 hunter to draw from atm.

 

[Tranquil-]

Evades only works in the frontal arc so make sure you /face them.

But assassins evading my arrows and still remaining stealthed happens pretty often.

This happens alot more against buffed targets ofcourse(even if I am buffed too), and evade still works flawlessly(means you exceed the cap) against low chance to-hit attacks.

The numerical evadeskillvalue that is a part in the check against weaponskill to determine evades is too high when buffed. The lower weaponskill of unbuffed scouts makes this more apparent though since hunters and rangers has self buffs to inflate the weaponskill regardless of bowspec.

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by Tranquil-
Evades only works in the frontal arc so make sure you /face them.

But assassins evading my arrows and still remaining stealthed happens pretty often.

Even using /face I don't get that many evades tbh, maybe I'm gimped somwhere.

As for assassins remaining stealthed, that has happened to me so few times, I think saying twice might be too generous to my evade ability.

 

[Tranquil-]

If you evaded the arrow you remain stealthed. You will not unstealth unless you take damage.

I cannot comment on what you say is your experiences, but it is an annoying well known fact that assassins evade arrows often. The last time I was evaded was a couple of days ago outside of emain apk when I TS'ed 2 SB's camping the PK. I managed to unstealth one of them after he turned his back on me, but before that happened he evaded 3 shots in a row while one missed.

edit: And yes I'm using 35% bonus bows.

 

[kaod]

Given what you say, I will watch this thread with great interest and would welcome more assassin/archer class feedback on this issue.

 

[skile]

"Sure its not you hitting yourself in the foot with your arrow from 1m?"

Yes.

"Please, if you wish to "quote" me, at least have the decency to put something I actually said."

"" is not only used for quote. Atleast not in Swedish .

"And then the original one that seems to contradict everything that came after:"

Your point? We are talkina about present, not past.

"How can I debate the issue with someone who can't make their own mind up? By your logic, SB are the worst class in the game.

You are right though, unless you face them on an even playing field you will never know. However, what exactly is an even playing field? Are we to base this purely on being unbuffed?
Well you state:"

SB's can solo tanks, buffed or unbuffed shouldn't matter. Sb's need nerfs.

About the "Every class has it's weakness, every class needs to be played right":

NO SHIT?!! Eventhough, some class are weaker overall than others, level a scout (not a hunter, they are better with their new changes) and repeat the same thing. Scouts have nothing.

"There is a scout called Sniper that I'm fairly certain employs this tactic in alb-df entrance. Might be wrong, but he has a great knack for sticking arrows right where it hurts."

DF-entrance is easy rps. But a pain getting there. I doubt it's that hard hurting SB's with true sight. But then again, it's on 30 minutes. I don't play this game to SBhunt, I think assasins should be removed totally from the game. Stealth should be removed .

"This is how I see that SB started out - and after being handed their asses by duos of mincer/inf/scout variations, we were forced to group. Maybe it was cos the albs ran into hunters/Sb working in tandem or small groups - but how quickly it spreads and the blame gets placed."

What duos are you talking about? I can't make it past odins amg, camped by 1 buffed or 2+ SB's/Ns. I can't make it pass amg in emain, even more camped. MOVE from the AMG's and my complains will decrease, since I'm not on a SBhunt.

 

[skile]

"The majority of people coming out of svasud will be rez sick too, ofcourse there's a difference."

Are you a joke? You CAN actually notice a difference (rp's) by rezsick people and not.

 

[skile]

Originally posted by kaod
Given what you say, I will watch this thread with great interest and would welcome more assassin/archer class feedback on this issue.

Archerfeedback? Where?

 

[skile]

Originally posted by kaod


Totally agree on the vulnerability, and I would have to say that with my SB unbuffed, I rarely evade an arrow. With my Hunter buffed, I rarely get evaded.
If I get TS'd by a scout or ranger, 99 times out of 100 I am going to die, and that's acceptable.
However, I would argue that equality is measured in many other ways.

SB evade is obviously part of our defensive nature, and is now ofc capped and we are now weakened in melee durability due to lack of IP.
I'm not complaining about this issue, but if scouts are to work as deadeye snipers properly and become (too over)skilled (obviously depends on your opinion of this very issue which is the case here)v evade, they would surely have to lose a bit more on their ability to melee and I would say that would mean losing shield styles and/or IP.

I would still say that SC/buffs/skills, luck and starting stats are the cause for any evades.

I would be really interested in seeing some scout data or log to see in how many battles and v whom these evades occur though, because I only have my own personal experiences of being peppered with arrows and a 24 hunter to draw from atm.

SC, Skills and starting class should not be included in buffs. Buffs is THE difference. The diffference IS huge. So how should you judge skill when most RR's come from buffbots.

It's still on a 30 min timer. And camo on a 10. There's a lot of waiting playing a scout. 10 mins in just surviving. 30 mins in KILLING something (compare that to a assasins KD/s Ratio).

 

[skile]

Originally posted by Tranquil-
Evading arrows has nothing to do with realism or the lack of it.

If we shoot at assassins whom are unstealthed or ones we can see with True Sight we can't use Critshot because moving in stealth is counted as running and as everyone knows we can't Critshot running targets. Arrows are already very easily evaded due to the high modified dex/qui and the high evadeskill assassins have contra the low tohit chance archery has.

When archers have the advantage(read range) and are attacking an assassin with archery, the assassins should be just as vulnerable as an archer is in melee against an assassin.

On our turf we should have the advantage, on your turf you HAVE the advantage.

The advantage for SB's is 58/60 minutes and scouts are 2/60 minutes. That's the difference.

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by skile
"Sure its not you hitting yourself in the foot with your arrow from 1m?"

Yes.

You need better evade then.

Originally posted by skile
"" is not only used for quote. Atleast not in Swedish .[/B]

My apologies.

Originally posted by skile
"And then the original one that seems to contradict everything that came after:"

Your point? We are talkina about present, not past.
[/B]

I thought that was self-evident. Making two differeing statments within about 2 posts of each other like:

Scouts are the worst class.
Scouts can solo unbuffed sb if everything goes right.

doesn't really make much sense. If in your opinion a scout is clearly the worst class without argument, how could you solo all unbuffed sb?

Originally posted by skile
SB's can solo tanks, buffed or unbuffed shouldn't matter. Sb's need nerfs.[/B]

Most SB unbuffed can't solo a tank in straight melee standing toe to toe. They nerfed our melee ability with evade cap and loss of IP as we were too strong.
However, I can sometimes manage to take out a tank if I kite him, which is more tactical than a win button, in the same way that you could solo a tank with your bow if you time your attack right.
It's extremely risky for a unbuffed SB though, which is as it should be.
Please explain another thing to me then: in what way would you suggest they nerf SB to make it acceptable to you.

Originally posted by skile
About the "Every class has it's weakness, every class needs to be played right":

NO SHIT?!! Eventhough, some class are weaker overall than others, level a scout (not a hunter, they are better with their new changes) and repeat the same thing. Scouts have nothing.[/B]

Again, I ask you then, if you agree with the original statement, what is a SBs weakness?
And I would also be interested to know what you require for a scout to be made stronger - you want better melee, better evade, better stealth, better bow ability?
Seems that not all scouts are disatisfied. Scouts still get kills from what I have seen, and maybe like the IP nerf that hit SB, scouts need to adjust their playing style and can't/won't.
Again, I'm open to listening to scouts on this issue as I have never played one, and those last comments I accept might be wildly off the mark.

Originally posted by skile
DF-entrance is easy rps. But a pain getting there. I doubt it's that hard hurting SB's with true sight. But then again, it's on 30 minutes. I don't play this game to SBhunt, I think assasins should be removed totally from the game. Stealth should be removed .[/B]

Sniper does this ALB side, so shouldn't be too much of a pain to get there.
Nah, just remove albs from the game and you get an instantly good community.

Originally posted by skile
What duos are you talking about? I can't make it past odins amg, camped by 1 buffed or 2+ SB's/Ns. I can't make it pass amg in emain, even more camped. MOVE from the AMG's and my complains will decrease, since I'm not on a SBhunt. [/B]

This is going back a loooong way now that this started and tbh I really can't remember the names. Trying really hard to think back the minstrels I can remember would be probably Anarki and Mazsola, one of the infs Mallus.
Not to accuse them of grouping ALL the time with others, but the small groups they seemed to be in caused so many problems for solo or duo SB.

I really don't get the argument against milegate blockages. I have tried to go through them solo in all frontiers and don't always make it. Sometimes I go back alone (cos I'm stupid like that) and others I will either go elsewhere to come back later, or join up with others to get through.
FG's and more of non-stealthers camp milegates too, and it's not always simple to get a solo SB through then either.
What I don't do though is complain about it, it annoys me at the time, but it's fair for them to be there - stealthed or not.

What you fail to realise is this basic concept:

Give an enemy an easy target and he will attack.
If emain is that bad, go somewhere else. You obviously by the sounds of it keep trying to get through milegates solo and die - you are just giving easy rps to ppl, and its a simple fact that ppl will always gravitate to the areas that good, and safer rps can be made.

Originally posted by skile
Archerfeedback? Where?

erm... bowclasses? Is that better? Didn't realise you guys disliked the word archer.

Originally posted by skile
SC, Skills and starting class should not be included in buffs. Buffs is THE difference. The diffference IS huge. So how should you judge skill when most RR's come from buffbots.

It's still on a 30 min timer. And camo on a 10. There's a lot of waiting playing a scout. 10 mins in just surviving. 30 mins in KILLING something (compare that to a assasins KD/s Ratio).[/B]

I'm sorry Skile but you are simply just not making any sense again.
You say that SB's should be nerfed because they can solo tanks, buffed or unbuffed, and then state the only thing that makes a difference is buffs.
Are you against unbuffed SB ability or not?

And lets look at things this way - I used to have a SB spec that I thought was going to be the best after reading US boards. I was fully buffed up by a 32-38 shammy.
Then I changed my spec quite drastically, and as of late I don't use buffs for RvR.
I get more rps than I ever did with my old, supposedly so-fantastic spec.
It's not down to RA either, cos I had purge on the old spec and even IP and dodger, now I only have purge.
Please explain that one away.

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by kaod
I get more rps than I ever did with my old, supposedly so-fantastic spec. It's not down to RA either, cos I had purge on the old spec and even IP and dodger, now I only have purge.
Please explain that one away.

MoP, toughness, str etc, perhaps? Surely some other RA's you must have bought for the RA points you got when getting rid of dodger/IP. And perhaps the targets you engage has changed, not so many tanks, more of the softer targets that die even faster than they did because of your increased damage output from the newly acquired RA's.

SB's solo alot of classes because of high damage LA styles, offhands always firing adding a small but appreciated damage add, stealth, evade and above average hitpoints for assassins. Forgive me if I'm completely off the mark here.

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by Tranquil-


MoP, toughness, str etc, perhaps? Surely some other RA's you must have bought for the RA points you got when getting rid of dodger/IP. And perhaps the targets you engage has changed, not so many tanks, more of the softer targets that die even faster than they did because of your increased damage output from the newly acquired RA's.

SB's solo alot of classes because of high damage LA styles, offhands always firing adding a small but appreciated damage add, stealth, evade and above average hitpoints for assassins. Forgive me if I'm completely off the mark here.

I went MoP IV and kept a log of the crits I got and the amount of dmg they did - upon reviewing it for the guild I felt it wasn't worth me keeping at all, so I respecced out if it.

The new patch seems to give crits more often I noticed both with and without MoP IV (I get about the same amount without MoP and got nearly every strike in 3 battles with MoP IV), but aside from purge and SH, I haven't allocated any of my other points yet.
I still try to engage tanks if I think I might be able to kite them, so really my targets haven't changed too much, more the style I employ to attempt to take them down.
And please, no digs from anyone about soft targets meaning greys - yes i do kill them also.

LA styles? What are they? I think I'd do more damage to my wrist than a target hitting with a LA style.

 

[Trinilim]

Originally posted by kaod


Most SB unbuffed can't solo a tank in straight melee standing toe to toe. They nerfed our melee ability with evade cap and loss of IP as we were too strong.
However, I can sometimes manage to take out a tank if I kite him, which is more tactical than a win button, in the same way that you could solo a tank with your bow if you time your attack right.
It's extremely risky for a unbuffed SB though, which is as it should be.

Not flaming or anything, but tbh, I have NEVER seen an unbuffed SB.

Not saying they don't exist, but a very rare breed don't use buffbots.

 

[Tranquil-]

So Doublefrost is bad then? Low damage, hard to get in right?
DF/SQ/IB doesn't do bad damage though.

And I don't mean greys when saying soft targets.

Anyway, I'm not going further into the assassin field. You know what damage you do and I can't see many complains about that from SB's.

 

[kaod]

Originally posted by Trinilim


Not flaming or anything, but tbh, I have NEVER seen an unbuffed SB.

Not saying they don't exist, but a very rare breed don't use buffbots.

I regard that as an opinion anyway, not a flame.

I have one, and I don't deny I might as some point use it again, and it's for no particular reason other than the fact that I don't want to get used to playing buffed and relying on having it available for all RvR occassions.
I wish to add though, I am not trying to come off all whiter-than-white and holier than whoever - I still defend the right to use them, yet also wish that Mythic would put a timer or range limit on the buffs.

I have seen, in say a fg of 8 SB, 1,2 or maybe even a few more that are unbuffed, but theres also no denying that yes, many are buffed up at least the majority of the time.