PC Master Race Consoles Vs PCs

[Scouse]

Read this again Toht; he isn't calling you a liar.

Please tell him not to bother. If all he can be bothered to come up with to "counter" my long post above is "I'm not gonna bother" then I'm glad he's got me on ignore again - it means I'll be able to have non-derailed discussions with people until he takes me off ignore again.

 

[Raven]

But you also refuse to say which games you have been a QA on.

Your argument is that you know that games are designed with the controls as a secondary thought in the design process (or not at all!) because you are a dev (or QA, whatever)

I am saying they are because I play on both consoles and PC and have done for 20+ years and spend a (silly amount actually, thinking about it) on both games and machines to run those games.

 

[Scouse]

But you also refuse to say which games you have been a QA on.

Meh, he doesn't want to face the facts of the discussion so he's doing what he always does when he can't come up with a counter argument - making the thread about him...

 

[Adari]

ANYWAY

 

[Adari]

What about the steam controller that has a mousepad ?

http://store.steampowered.com/app/353370/

 

[Raven]

Will be great coupled with the steam streaming thingy for driving games, sports games and platformers, Jrpgs etc all in glorious 1080 60fps on the TV.

Shite for fps games though...

I reckon it might kick off some decent controller based indi games development.

 

[Scouse]

What about the steam controller that has a mousepad ?

I'm sort of interested but I've got a controller and a mouse and keyboard. I don't really need one that does both as I already have both. But I can see that a lot of people would like a single controller.

Valves foray into alternative controller design supports the argument that current designs are too limited. One of their main arguments is that FPSs on current controllers is a bit shit.

 

[Lakih]

Less then three pages and everyone got their dildos twisted sideways up their own asses.

Whether or not you agree with @old.Tohtori and the points he is trying to make, doing a witch hunt trying to belittle or question his experience as a developer in the industry is just fucking bad manners (@Scouse @caLLous @Raven).
Just answer this - how much experience do any of you have as a professional game developer? "thinking about games" while playing them does not count (fucking lol ).

I'm guessing quite a few of us in the thread are between 30-40 years old and have been playing games for about 20 years or more, but that gives us very little insight in how the things are actually created. Yes we might know some things about development cycles and have ideas on how we think things are made but that's about it.

So stop with the stupid pitchfork and torches "discussion" that's been going on lately.

my 2p. Disagree all you want.

Also, this whole thread was a stupid idea to begin with.

 

[Adari]

I have a mouse and keyboard too... but I would much prefer lying on the couch in a bathrobe wearing sunglasses sipping margaritas whilst gaming than sitting hunched over at a desk.

I'd love it for games like Civ 5, EU IV, CK II as well as adventure games, if it is well implemented. For something like GTA V I'll have to see how accurate the mouse pad is in terms of movement/aiming...

 

[old.Tohtori]

Read this again Toht; he isn't calling you a liar.

He is actually, but it doesn't matter since he's on ignroe now. The whole "when he works" comment pushed it really. Should be less of arguments all around because of that.

Good times

But you also refuse to say which games you have been a QA on.

I refuse to do that because of two things really;

1: I'd need to explain how it doesn't matter what game you've worked on, the process is pretty much the same. Even the genre doesn't affect it that much.
2: It would be used as ammo to belittle my points (you know that would happen ).

 

[Raven]

Less then three pages and everyone got their dildos twisted sideways up their own asses.

Whether or not you agree with @old.Tohtori and the points he is trying to make, doing a witch hunt trying to belittle or question his experience as a developer in the industry is just fucking bad manners (@Scouse @caLLous @Raven).
Just answer this - how much experience do any of you have as a professional game developer? "thinking about games" while playing them does not count (fucking lol ).

I'm guessing quite a few of us in the thread are between 30-40 years old and have been playing games for about 20 years or more, but that gives us very little insight in how the things are actually created. Yes we might know some things about development cycles and have ideas on how we think things are made but that's about it.

So stop with the stupid pitchfork and torches "discussion" that's been going on lately.

my 2p. Disagree all you want.

Also, this whole thread was a stupid idea to begin with.

Actually, the point is that when a dev sits down and thinks about the game they are going to make, it would be utterly retarded not to consider the machine and how that machine is played on in the very early stages of development. As the most sales come from consoles then it is fairly simple to surmise that the console is the system the games are ultimately designed for.

A major part of that is the input method, which is why we see stupid radial menus and limited quick inventory options which just don't work very well with m/kb. Skyrim is a good example, a game with tonnes of spells and different abilities, limited to 1 spell skill slot and terrible default menus, just because the main target audience is limited to only having a small amount of buttons. The stupid "favorites" work around was awful.

To say they create a game and then think of the platform and control method they are targeting is stupid, regardless of the industry you work in, just because Toht works in gaming doesn't mean he knows what he is talking about.

 

[Raven]

He is actually, but it doesn't matter since he's on ignroe now. The whole "when he works" comment pushed it really. Should be less of arguments all around because of that.

Good times

He was only trolling ololol

 

[old.Tohtori]

He was only trolling ololol

Even as a troll i never stepped over certain lines.

To say they create a game and then think of the platform and control method they are targeting is stupid,

That's not what i'm saying. I'm saying that controls are designed after the game is designed.

The platform affects a lot more things before that, such as graphics, memory, code etc. Controls can be fitted into any game, and as i said, consoles have affected how games are, but controls have little to do with it.

And even if i didn't know what i was talking about, i'd still know more about what i don't know about then those that don't work in dev

 

[Raven]

Er, yeah you do.

 

[Ormorof]

There is that and I totally agree, it does seem as though Nvidia are trying their hardest to push the format into more serious area's with their Shield tablets. I do have to admit I am massively tempted to get one with the dedicated pad, I just need to not spend anymore food and bills money on shiny Trem toys

Edit - I fucking hate replying on phone, can't even put a sad fucking face where I want it because of the fucking keyboard on my phone won't let me do a fucking: and a ( together fuck you Android and fuck your games. Cunts.

True, but they can build all the tools they want its no use if game devs are still targetting android 2.2

 

[Adari]

I like men

 

[Scouse]

doing a witch hunt trying to belittle or question his experience as a developer in the industry is just fucking bad manners (@Scouse @caLLous @Raven).

What's really bad manners is refusing to discuss points raised and derailing the thread by making it about yourself. If you look at my biggest post you'll find I wasn't being personal at all. Only after toht's display of "don't give a fuck" did I wind him up...

But what raven said is 100% correct. You design a game with your platform in mind. That includes controllers.

And even if I didn't consider myself right - toto's argument is "believe what the dev says" - and I do. Just not toht - I'll believe what my award winning console FPS designing mate says over a guy who hides what games he's worked on...

 

[Moriath]

I like women. But apparently i cant tell the difference between one and a dolphin which is worrying.

 

[Lakih]

Actually, the point is that when a dev sits down and thinks about the game they are going to make, it would be utterly retarded not to consider the machine and how that machine is played on in the very early stages of development. As the most sales come from consoles then it is fairly simple to surmise that the console is the system the games are ultimately designed for.
...

This is wrong.
First of all I believe that if you are a multi platform developer you have different departments developing for different platforms already. Second, the mobile market is expecting to pass consoles in revenues for 2015 ( http://fortune.com/2015/01/15/mobile-console-game-revenues-2015/ ). And third, according to the analysts who predicted the revenue overtake (from previously mentioned article) the development time split on a global scale is 28% (console), 39% (PC), 13% (Tablet), and 20% (Phone). Meaning that most developers develop games for the PC market.

As for Skyrim's controls and UI I agree, you have a point, but it can also be a design choice to have that setup. It creates a more "cinematic" view without a cluttered UI, it makes you choose what spells to load and not have many/all available at the same time on a hotbar etc… or they where just lazy when they did the design (I don't even remember the older Daggerfall games but didn't they follow similar UI design?).

 

[Adari]

I believe the point of Skyrim design is immersion.

This whole thread is solved!

 

[Scouse]

This is wrong.
First of all I believe that if you are a multi platform developer you have different departments developing for different platforms already. Second, the mobile market is expecting to pass consoles in revenues for 2015

OK - you're mixing so much that your argument is irrelevant.

This is primarily a discusion about first person shooters and a mouse and keyboard vs controller debate - and how controller affects design. It's not about touch screen and mobile phones or, in the case of skyrim, "hotbars". Hotbar quite amused me - we've got a non-graphical hotbar - it's called a keyboard and you learn what buttons to press rather than having them displayed to you in a noddy fashion.

But even so - you wouldn't argue that mobile phones were an excellent platform for first person shooters would you? Then why accept the argument about controllers being as good for FPS's as a mouse and keyboard?

I believe the point of Skyrim design is immersion.

Which is funny - because the point @Raven made about skyrim design is that it's UI design - made with a controller in mind - takes away from that immersion.


But then I don't care much about skyrim - it's a long long way from a fast-paced FPS

 

[~Latency~]

heh, the console hate's pretty embarrassing, the main offender being Raven, all that mouth breather talk makes you look like a hateful old man :< it's lols

the skill cap's definitely higher with a mouse & kb for sure on an fps game, but there's a big element of time = skill in a lot of games, when I used to play old cs as a teenager I'd play 5-10 hours a day and "pwn" and most of the time ordinary people who had jobs (the average player) had a disadvantage just due to the amount of time spent learning to aim etc.. personally i had as good a time playing goldeneye as i did playing cs, the difference was we'd all be handicapped with a controller and it didn't really matter?

imo it mattered a long time ago when really classic, unique games came out (half life, old battlefields / call of duty, cs, quake, unreal tornament) but what omg!!1 games have been released on PC in the last 5 years that were so good having a kb & mouse was a must to completely enjoy it? I really can't think of any :0

if gaming was my only hobby i'd definitely get a top of the range PC, but nobody got time for dat worry about what FPS you're getting if you are a busy person, if you read/keep fit/socialise/see family/drink/work/keep up with tv/movies a console's just fine for the majority of people :|

 

[Scouse]

heh, the console hate's pretty embarrassing

Admittedly @Raven's a bit of a mild troller - but if you think it's "console hate" then you've missed the point completely - and the specific statements about consoles and their controllers being fantastic for certain types of game.

The problem here is console-controller fanbois being unable to accept that they're not as good for first-person-shooters.

the difference was we'd all be handicapped with a controller and it didn't really matter?

At last we're getting to the nub of the problem. It did matter to some people. I didn't like goldeneye and I lived with the guy who made it. And it was down to controller.

imo it mattered a long time ago when really classic, unique games came out (half life, old battlefields / call of duty, cs, quake, unreal tornament) but what omg!!1 games have been released on PC in the last 5 years that were so good having a kb & mouse was a must to completely enjoy it? I really can't think of any

Alternatively - I can't think of a single awesome FPS game released in the last decade because their design has been hobbled because they have to cater to controllers. Decent games? Yep. But not awesome.

if gaming was my only hobby i'd definitely get a top of the range PC, but nobody got time for dat worry about what FPS you're getting if you are a busy person, if you read/keep fit/socialise/see family/drink/work/keep up with tv/movies a console's just fine for the majority of people :|

And this is the nub of your argument too - you simply don't care about games much (which is totally fine). I've got no kids and therefore have time to plough into socialising, keeping fit, holidaying (most weekends are spent far from home) - and gaming.

It annoys me that my gaming experience is massively compromised. - yeah, it's not for everyone. Fine. I've always seen consoles as a casual gaming platform anyway. But I'm not a casual gamer. Never have been. Which is why I won't compromise....

 

[Lakih]

OK - you're mixing so much that your argument is irrelevant.

This is primarily a discusion about first person shooters and a mouse and keyboard vs controller debate - and how controller affects design. It's not about touch screen and mobile phones or, in the case of skyrim, "hotbars". Hotbar quite amused me - we've got a non-graphical hotbar - it's called a keyboard and you learn what buttons to press rather than having them displayed to you in a noddy fashion.

But even so - you wouldn't argue that mobile phones were an excellent platform for first person shooters would you? Then why accept the argument about controllers being as good for FPS's as a mouse and keyboard?



Which is funny - because the point @Raven made about skyrim design is that it's UI design - made with a controller in mind - takes away from that immersion.


But then I don't care much about skyrim - it's a long long way from a fast-paced FPS

My argument was in regards to the point @Raven brought up

it is fairly simple to surmise that the console is the system the games are ultimately designed for.

nothing else.

I actually agree with many of the points you are making, that fps games are better (personal opinion) with a mouse and keyboard. I disagree that games are dumbed down (in general, some games might be) to cater to the console players.

As for Skyrim and any mobile fps games, lets not derail the thread further. But I do think that you could make a pretty cool mobile fps game (cross hair fixed in center, aim by tilting phone left/right, up/down)

 

[Raven]

heh, the console hate's pretty embarrassing, the main offender being Raven, all that mouth breather talk makes you look like a hateful old man :< it's lols

the skill cap's definitely higher with a mouse & kb for sure on an fps game, but there's a big element of time = skill in a lot of games, when I used to play old cs as a teenager I'd play 5-10 hours a day and "pwn" and most of the time ordinary people who had jobs (the average player) had a disadvantage just due to the amount of time spent learning to aim etc.. personally i had as good a time playing goldeneye as i did playing cs, the difference was we'd all be handicapped with a controller and it didn't really matter?

imo it mattered a long time ago when really classic, unique games came out (half life, old battlefields / call of duty, cs, quake, unreal tornament) but what omg!!1 games have been released on PC in the last 5 years that were so good having a kb & mouse was a must to completely enjoy it? I really can't think of any :0

if gaming was my only hobby i'd definitely get a top of the range PC, but nobody got time for dat worry about what FPS you're getting if you are a busy person, if you read/keep fit/socialise/see family/drink/work/keep up with tv/movies a console's just fine for the majority of people :|

What are you talking about. I own both consoles and a PC...

if you think that criticising a particular platform because it is inferior (when it is) is "hate" then meh, you must have some issues with emotion.

I notice you also punctuate with emoticons and think gamers don't do anything else but game so...er yeah.

 

[Tom]

What about the steam controller that has a mousepad ?

http://store.steampowered.com/app/353370/

With my keyboard I can type all kinds of abusive nonsense, and I can alt-tab to Windows while I'm dead. I don't see anyone doing that on this controller.

 

[fettoken]

Cool, is there a FF game on PS4 already?

FF Type 0

 

[fettoken]

Which is funny - because the point @Raven made about skyrim design is that it's UI design - made with a controller in mind - takes away from that immersion.


But then I don't care much about skyrim - it's a long long way from a fast-paced FPS

Exactly. Skyrim as an example can be enjoyed with kb+mouse and also with a gamepad. It's what is the most comfortable playing it with. If i'm sitting in a chair in front of the comp well a keyboard and mouse is certainly most useful but as of now when i have the comp hooked up to the tv and sitting in the sofa, a gamepad works best in terms of comfort. Now i think you're being a tad nitpicky when mentioning the UI taking away from the immersion.

 

[Scouse]

Exactly. Skyrim as an example can be enjoyed with kb+mouse and also with a gamepad. It's what is the most comfortable playing it with. If i'm sitting in a chair in front of the comp well a keyboard and mouse is certainly most useful but as of now when i have the comp hooked up to the tv and sitting in the sofa, a gamepad works best in terms of comfort. Now i think you're being a tad nitpicky when mentioning the UI taking away from the immersion.

I have a couple of points about this.

The first and most important being that skyrim isn't an FPS - first person, yes - but not an FPS and my specific point is about the compromise in design that FPS's suffer. As an example I've used the gameplay of games like Quake 3 Arena / Unreal Tournament - which would be utterly unplayable in any enjoyable way with a controller. So much so that they don't make similar games any more because the controller market that they have to hit can't cope - and FPS's are now shite because of it.

Secondly there's this:

Spoiler

I use my 42" telly attached to my PC with my keyboard on my lap and my mouse next to me. Works fine. But yeah - I know that most people don't have a house setup like that - another benefit of not having kids

Oh yeah, and apologies for the shit keyboard. My bird spilled coke over my other one

 

[fettoken]

Regarding fps, yeah it's a given that a lot is compromised with just a pad. The Metroid games for Gamecube and esp Wii would be a field day with a keyboard and mouse in mind.

Also, i have a similar 'setup' as yours within the spoiler tags. Using a keyboard in the lap, well, it works so-so, being the only option and preferred over a gamepad, but some times it's very relaxing being able to use one if the game allows it, unless there's any form of competitive fps involved.