PC Master Race Consoles Vs PCs

[Trem]

No one has mentioned Android for gaming

Actually I bet mobile devices have the most dedicated games players nowadays, I only play on my phone and nothing else even though I built a sexual PC (very similar to leggys iirc).

I miss PC games :-(

 

[old.Tohtori]

No one has mentioned Android for gaming

Actually I bet mobile devices have the most dedicated games players nowadays, I only play on my phone and nothing else even though I built a sexual PC (very similar to leggys iirc).

I miss PC games :-(

It's a thriving market for sure. I think the last i checked android was even starting to go over pad stuff in sales/players, where a year ago android was maybe a quarter of the sales. It's also where a lot of game companies startup because it's cheaper and safer so it's bringing a lot more companies into the games market, a lot of which are "hardcore old schoolers".

 

[DaGaffer]

It's not. It's just a fact of game design. Controls don't define the game, controls are designed for the game.

That doesn't exclude poor design as i've stated many times before, but it's a fact that stands.

Which has exactly what to do with the argument? No-ones saying games can't be ported from one input device to another, just that the outcome is often an inferior experience.

 

[Raven]

It's not. It's just a fact of game design. Controls don't define the game, controls are designed for the game.

That doesn't exclude poor design as i've stated many times before, but it's a fact that stands.

Have any of the games you have worked on actually sold any units?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Which has exactly what to do with the argument? No-ones saying games can't be ported from one input device to another, just that the outcome is often an inferior experience.

Because Scouse was claiming controls define the game and it's the reason why PC FPSs suck, but if you can port any old good FPS to consoles it means it can be made good for the PC and then ported(no matter if the original plan is to dualplat or not). Developers might not choose to do so, but it can be done.

An inferior experience is bad design, not forced design.

Have any of the games you have worked on actually sold any units?

Yes. And that is a strawman argument

 

[Raven]

Ah ok, which multiplatform games have you worked on then?

 

[Raven]

Because Scouse was claiming controls define the game and it's the reason why PC FPSs suck, but if you can port any old good FPS to consoles it means it can be made good for the PC and then ported(no matter if the original plan is to dualplat or not). Developers might not choose to do so, but it can be done.

Also, you are missing the point entirely and then trying to argue about something completely different.

Nobody is saying you can't port an FPS game to a console, just that in doing so you make the game less good. Also most AAA FPS games are designed with a controller in mind, from level design through to inventory management. That is a clear fact, that is where the likes of COD make their money. A dumbed down product for dumbed down kids.

Edit, I'll take that facepalm as "none, I have no idea what I am talking about" thanks for clearing that up.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Also, you are missing the point entirely and then trying to argue about something completely different.

Nobody is saying you can't port an FPS game to a console, just that in doing so you make the game less good. Also most AAA FPS games are designed with a controller in mind, from level design through to inventory management. That is a clear fact, that is where the likes of COD make their money. A dumbed down product for dumbed down kids.

I'm not. I'm saying that controls don't define the game design and games are not limited intentionally because of them. That's an actual fact and that's where it's very much ontopic with what has been discussed.

The reason why FPS games are arguably sh*t these days is much more multilayered then that and you can put processing power, gamer preferences and money way above cotrols on that list.

I never said consoles haven't affected PC FPSs, they have, ofcourse. I've just said controls are a minimal spec on the game development process.

FYI, the "dumbed down product" also applies to PC, just because you play on a PC does not mean you're not still part of the masses.

 

[Ormorof]

No one has mentioned Android for gaming

Actually I bet mobile devices have the most dedicated games players nowadays, I only play on my phone and nothing else even though I built a sexual PC (very similar to leggys iirc).

I miss PC games :-(

The biggest problem with android is the games have to serve the lowest common denominator, they cant build a game that only runs on high end devices because the monies is all in pulling in huge playerbases and monetising them somehow (micro transactions or advertising for example)

 

[old.Tohtori]

The biggest problem with android is the games have to serve the lowest common denominator, they cant build a game that only runs on high end devices because the monies is all in pulling in huge playerbases and monetising them somehow (micro transactions or advertising for example)

Funnily enough regular player microtransactions don't really mean anything to sales(in mobile games). It's the whales that put in the cash and it's the reason why games have those seemingly ridicilous "100 dollars for this pack of stuff" things

For the majority though it's true, it's just a money making app for some publisher and developers need those to keep afloat until they can finish their own project on the side.

 

[Raven]

FYI, the "dumbed down product" also applies to PC, just because you play on a PC does not mean you're not still part of the masses.

ding ding ding, there you go. I am sorry but if you knew anything about PC gaming and PC gamers then you would know that the last thing we want is a dumbed down product, publishers won't try and sell something that people don't want (unless they are a big fan of not selling anything) ergo, they design games with their biggest market in mind (consoles) controls, graphical limits, attention spans etc.

The lowest common denometer.

 

[Tom]

I have a fairly powerful PC but I still play TF2 and not much else. Played GTA5 for a bit but I'm bored of that now.

TF2 is just fucking hilarious. Where else could you run around as a bald fat Russian bloke while wielding a crit-charged frying pan smothered in special bacon grease?

 

[Talivar]

PC wont ever be the master machine unless it fully cracks down on piracy IMO. If they can sort that they might start putting more effort into maximizing PC games and not making everything multi-platform.

 

[old.Tohtori]

the last thing we want is a dumbed down product

Applies to you, me, a lot of console players, others on this forum. Yes. Masses? F*ck no.

The problem is applying hardcore PC player needs and wants to all of PC players.

if you knew anything about PC gaming and PC gamers

Facepalm was for that.

 

[Scouse]

Which has exactly what to do with the argument? No-ones saying games can't be ported from one input device to another, just that the outcome is often an inferior experience.

I make that argument yep. I also make the argument that because console controllers are so limiting they hobble the actual design of a game.

Take, for example, Quake 3 Arena (or maybe Q2 - that was fast as shit, as was UT). You had a mouse and keyboard to control and that offers unparalleled precision and quickness of movement.

You can do things with a mouse and keyboard that you *cannot* do with a controller. For example, you could rocket jump, change weapon in mid air - shoot someone who was moving just as fast as you in an erratic manner and who was but a speck you caught out of the corner of your eye, then land on an improbably (and ridiculously) positioned platform after spinning 180 - all in, say, a second. Or something a lot more complex than that.

It became natural to the majority of players to have that level of control. Levels were designed that required you to have that level of control to be able to both get about and compete with other players.

Then consoles became much more mainstream with their controllers - which are fantastic inventions for certain types of game. But not for this type of FPS.

Sure, you could probably make it around the Q3A maps with a controller. But not in any meaningful way. You certainly couldn't railgun someone, jump off a platform, spin 180, railgun a guy as your're falling on the hard-to-get-to impossible floaty platform below you, spin again whilst changing your weapon to shotgun and blow the face off the guy you land behind.

Sure, you could make it to all of those places with a controller. But not if there were other players on the map because they'd be too busy shooting each other, whilst picking up the spawn-kill fodder that a guy with a controller would be.

That is the clear reason that companies *never* mix mouse+keyboard with controller players.

But now with cross-platform development being the norm companies also have to bear in mind that their console-owning customers don't have the level of control that keyboard-and-mouse owning PC players do. So they do a number of things, including slow the games down, make the levels more easily navigable with a console controller etc. etc. All to cater for the wider, controller-crippled, audience.

The PC player can, of course, play these games. But the very game design itself is compromised from what it could be with a better control mechanism - because designers have to bear the console controller limitations in mind.


Now, I'd never argue that Pro Evo Soccer is better with a keyboard. Everyone seems fine and happy with that statement. Nobody gets butthurt. The game itself would be utterly unplayable with a keyboard and mouse (though I'm sure someone could figure out a way to pass and move on a keyboard) - and its very design is influenced by the fact that controllers are available with multiple buttons and sticks in the thoughtful arrangement they are in.

Point that exact same fact out for FPSes and you get a shitload of butthurt abuse. Astonishing really.

 

[Scouse]

PC wont ever be the master machine unless it fully cracks down on piracy IMO. If they can sort that they might start putting more effort into maximizing PC games and not making everything multi-platform.

Nah. They'll still look at the biggest total market and their costs and develop for that.

The xbone and PS4 are effectively PC's anyway - just PC's with shit graphics capabilities. So they'll include that large market segment in their development - and will make sure they design the game in a way so as to not alienate the controller-using user-base.


Piracy's been around since PC's were invented. Yet gaming is bigger than the music and the film industry. Doesn't seem to be having much of an effect eh?

 

[old.Tohtori]

You certainly couldn't railgun someone, jump off a platform, spin 180, railgun a guy as your're falling on the hard-to-get-to impossible floaty platform below you, spin again whilst changing your weapon to shotgun and blow the face off the guy you land behind.

Shows how little you play with a controller, or your idea on how well one can move with one.

Taking it into "mb+mouse versus controller in same match" is ridicilous and neither here nor there when it comes to designing a game.

 

[Raven]

They tried mixing peasants with the master race. It didn't end well.

 

[Trem]

The biggest problem with android is the games have to serve the lowest common denominator, they cant build a game that only runs on high end devices because the monies is all in pulling in huge playerbases and monetising them somehow (micro transactions or advertising for example)

There is that and I totally agree, it does seem as though Nvidia are trying their hardest to push the format into more serious area's with their Shield tablets. I do have to admit I am massively tempted to get one with the dedicated pad, I just need to not spend anymore food and bills money on shiny Trem toys

Edit - I fucking hate replying on phone, can't even put a sad fucking face where I want it because of the fucking keyboard on my phone won't let me do a fucking: and a ( together fuck you Android and fuck your games. Cunts.

 

[old.Tohtori]

They tried mixing peasants with the master race. It didn't end well.

No one has disagreed with that. Mixing consoles and PC would require some rather interesting solutions(not that it's impossible).

 

[Scouse]

They tried mixing peasants with the master race. It didn't end well.

This is true. But that's only half of the argument - but a fantastic way to clearly establish the superiority of keyboard and mouse as a control system for first-person-shooters.


I don't know why some people simply can't accept the obvious fact that limitations of control affect design. One of my best mates worked on a number of console FPS's of varying critical acclaim (some shit, some stellar) - and he happily agrees with me on every point because it's that obvious.

I idly wonder if Toht's intransigence on the point is because, deep down, he doesn't want to believe he's working on an inferior platform for FPS's?

 

[old.Tohtori]

I'm not gonna bother with your "facts" Scouse(brickwalls and all), but where did you get the notion that i'm a console dev?

 

[Scouse]

I'm not gonna bother with your "facts" Scouse(brickwalls and all), but where did you get the notion that i'm a console dev?

I only vaguely have the notion you're a dev at all tbh.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I only vaguely have the notion you're a dev at all tbh.

Oh right, now you're claiming lies. Good to know, absolutely full of sh*t then.

Now i know why people actually can't discuss anything with you. Christ, when confronted that you might be wrong about me being a console dev you switch to "i don't think you're at all"

 

[caLLous]

He does QA doesn't he?

 

[Scouse]

He does QA doesn't he?

When he works.

But then I don't know how we're supposed to know* when he won't actually tell us exactly what he does or what he's worked on.




*or care.

 

[old.Tohtori]

When he works.

Waaau....that's low, even for you. Not only that, but also calling me a liar in not so many words.

Yeah, time to remove you from the equation.

 

[Scouse]

calling me a liar

You took it that way. I didn't say it...

 

[old.Tohtori]

He does QA doesn't he?

Yeah. I have a 3d modelling/graphics background at start, then level design, design and lead design, but i work in QA when the opportunity rises and try to move it away from the stereotypical "bugtesting" and towards an actual quality assurance where QA has a more important role in all aspects of the development process. Works really well with the background i have as i can pretty much QA anything going on outside the code.

QA should be the preverbial internal affairs of game dev.

 

[caLLous]

I only vaguely have the notion you're a dev at all tbh.

Read this again Toht; he isn't calling you a liar.