Casual RvR is dead. Long live RvR.

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Ottar

Guest
> Isnt you suppose to keep getting stronger while you play? Isnt that
> the whole purpose with games like this?

Yup, the most intrinsic concept in RPGs is "character development" or in other words making people play by placing a carrot of increased uberness a few hours of playtime ahead of them. The side effect being RPG's not marrying well with competitive PvP.

Witness D2. How many different classes was there? 5 or something? As long as you had folks on single player or co-operative, all was cool. More or less. As soon as they started PK'ing eachother - omg at the balance issues and related whines raised heaven-high on D2 forums. Nerfs followed. More whines followed. More nerfs followed..

One would have thought people would learn from that. Nah, DAoC retails with no less than 33 different classes, segregated into 3 realms, with each class having at least 2 or 3 spec options. In massively multiplayer environment. With competitive PvP built into it. How on earth did they think they were going to balance that zoo is beyond me.

Im not so sure WoW will be much better either. The number of classes is less, the division between "realms" more uniform. They still aint said much about what form their PvP is going to take.. Pretty sure tho that similar problems to what plagues us in DAoC will reappear in WoW as well. I do hope Im wrong.

Then you get games like Planetside. No RPG that one. There is "character development" through battleranks and command ranks but the ladder is much shorter and not really essential to gameplay. You play for a few hours and theoretically you have access to any weapon a battlerank 20 veteran has. Just no implants and less flexibility.

Folks who designed that game got rid of pretty much every single problem and issue we have in MMORPG's. But something seems to be missing.. Maybe its the carrot? Maybe it's the community? In nonstop action pretty much only way to communicate is brief yells via voicecom or voice macros.

Ottar
 
I

iceflower

Guest
Originally posted by faderullan
Isnt you suppose to keep getting stronger while you play? Isnt that the whole purpose with games like this?

Considering that Mythic only placed a regular deathmatch game under the flag of rvr, the concept of RAs create poor balance between players and therefore do not help the current situation. The transition between a standard MMORPG and the RvR portion of the game is lacking from a design point of view since the gap occurs. In a perfect design both casual and 24/7 players should be able to play in the same game. Perhaps the solution is to signifanctly tone down the effects of the RAs so you get a slight edge but where you own skill would be the sole determinant for if you win or lose the battle.

Besides, most rvr players says pve is crap since they prefer to play against real people that are both more clever than the AI and make human mistakes during battles. How come that isnt enough of a driver to make you play?

With no RAs is it your own skill that is the sole determinant for if you win or loose, without the help of umpteen RAs. Of course that would make the game more challenging even for 24/7 players but is that a bad thing? If you want to live the easy life, why play competitive games in the first place?
 
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faderullan

Guest
If they remove ra's... who could compete with mids then?
 
K

Khalen

Guest
Originally posted by Xeanor
Well without RAs you'd get the "xxx with 300 days /played was just killed by xxx with 5 days PL" kinda things :/ Time that has been put in needs to be useful, and the ones who play most will have the greatest benefit.

Crafting and hinging for 300 days should also be more stronger then that 5 days PLed char? Maybe you should say more like someone who played mostly RvR for 300 days vs someone who played just 5 days. But take a good look at it then again. Why should the char with just 5 days have no chance to win vs a 300 days rvr char? Don't you see how unfair that sounds? So basically the 5 days dude can only be farmed until he reaches the 300 days as you say in rvr but he hasn't gained anything till that. So basically he's still the lvl 5 days played dude with 300 days rvr played. So basically the RvRers are destroying the fun for the new ones (or the low ones) and will eventually get so bored of the same enemy again... Now tell me where the strife for high RvRers is? Ain't it just farming the rps and quit the game when they get bored eventually?
 
O

old.yaruar

Guest
Originally posted by faderullan
If they remove ra's... who could compete with mids then?

if you look at the us mids are actually percieved to be the weakest realm of the three......

the main things going for mids at the moment are the combination of healer and savage to make perfect gank groups, but the savage nerf makes quite a difference there.
 
F

Flimgoblin

Guest
healers will still rock after the savage nerf ;) they're a superb class.

On the RA front..

RAs are there for a reason...

you level from 1 to 50 gaining xp and getting new powers as you level up and spec.

You rvr from RR1l1 to rr10l10 gaining RP and getting new realm abilities as you realm-level up and spec.

DAoC is a game about character building and progress - why should that suddenly stop at 50 so it can turn into some warped version of quake?

Now the RA system really ain't that great - they are revamping it apparently with Frontiers - it's in need of a heck of a lot of improvement, but it needs to be there.
 
O

old.chipper

Guest
they should remove the 20 or so classes that cant get a rvr group because they dont fit into the "oh so perfect spec" and save people the 2-3 weeks of lvling a char that they cant do fuk all with

not everyone power lvls there char before anyone starts

casual rvr has been dead for ALONG time the reason i have quit and probably plenty of others maybe when toa and the new rvr expansion comes out things will change and all classes will be viable in rvr again but i doubt it very much

so much potential still in this game and so much going to waste on pointless upgrades *sigh*
 
A

Aule Valar

Guest
imo with the savage nerf, and resist debuff nerf the only seriously non balanced thing next patch will be the grp affecting ras (even stuff like fotg, sb, fh etc) anything that gives the whole grp a significant boost. tone those down, or maybe give them a much shorter range to make them slightly less power and game will be fine as far as i can see (not including stealthers here)
only problem will be how much toa affects some classes more than others (if it does) and if that'll overpower stuff
 
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augusta

Guest
One of the basics of every kind of sport/games is that there is no fun if the players are too different in ability.

Mike Tyson against me would be probably not very funny boxe match both for me or Mike (well for Mike and the spectators maybe......<grins>)

A duel between a lvl 50 hero and a lvl 3 guardian will probably be quite annoyng for both of them.

I dont really know how, but is a fact for me that the inner mechanic of a game should have to avoid the possibility of two different and unbalanced players fight.

How to implement that... not a clue.

The only idea I had is that different servers could be sorted for different kind of players:

> 24/7 leet boy (no offence to anyone, is a right of anyone playing 24/7)

> 10h a week player

> totally casual player

etc.

That would be probably more fun for everyone.
Couse those players do actually play different games....
 
X

Xeanor

Guest
Originally posted by Khalen
Crafting and hinging for 300 days should also be more stronger then that 5 days PLed char? Maybe you should say more like someone who played mostly RvR for 300 days vs someone who played just 5 days. But take a good look at it then again. Why should the char with just 5 days have no chance to win vs a 300 days rvr char? Don't you see how unfair that sounds? So basically the 5 days dude can only be farmed until he reaches the 300 days as you say in rvr but he hasn't gained anything till that. So basically he's still the lvl 5 days played dude with 300 days rvr played. So basically the RvRers are destroying the fun for the new ones (or the low ones) and will eventually get so bored of the same enemy again... Now tell me where the strife for high RvRers is? Ain't it just farming the rps and quit the game when they get bored eventually?

No, just the difference between a rr1l0 and a rr10l10 should be very much noticeable.

RAs is what makes your char superior to lower realm rank chars, because you've invested a lot of time in RvR, which is a fair deal tbh.

If you want something where 100% skill will make you win and not any time invested into your char, go play Unreal Tournament, not a MMORPG, especially one like DAoC.
 
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iceflower

Guest
>DAoC is a game about character building and progress - why should that suddenly stop at 50 so it can turn into some warped version of quake?

Um and how would you describe the rvr game now? Have you never rvred in Emain? Please tell me what makes the rvr game style different from plain jane deathmatching? Team play? Was included in Teamfortress a long time ago.

The only thing rvr brings is a deathmatch part to MMORPG world. Having levels within that makes for a rather weird situation in the end like Quake deathmatching with consoly auto aiming for the high realmrankers. :) Maybe you like playing FPSes with autoaiming and always chose easy mode, because that is what you get with lots of RAs on your char when meeting low realm rank players.

This is one of the thing that makes me prefer playing flightsims against other people. I know that it is only my own skill that keeps me alive in the sky, not how many powerups I have collected before the dogfight...
 
S

Shike

Guest
Originally posted by Xeanor
No, just the difference between a rr1l0 and a rr10l10 should be very much noticeable.

RAs is what makes your char superior to lower realm rank chars, because you've invested a lot of time in RvR, which is a fair deal tbh.

If you want something where 100% skill will make you win and not any time invested into your char, go play Unreal Tournament, not a MMORPG, especially one like DAoC.

yea it should make a difference, but in a more balanced way than it is implemented in daoc atm :)
 
B

Blood

Guest
ToA will soon come, with masterlevels that affects areas (also people outside your group), and RP's being shared in battlegroups.... Zergwarfare will soon become bigger than ever.
 
B

Blood

Guest
a good solution might to change the system, so you get 20% melee damage + spell damage in your home frontier, and you get 20% rp bonus in enemy frontiers
 
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Xeanor

Guest
then either everyone except hibs go emain or only hibs go emain...
 
B

Blood

Guest
hmm, as i see it, the rule of thumb would be the "elite" groups would go to enemy frontiers, and the n00b groups would go to their own frontiers.

guess mid and alb "elite" groups would go to emain.
- then albs would realize that there are easier opponents in odins (well maybe easier)
- mids would do the same and go to hadrians.

i dont know if 20% is the breaking point, or if new bottlenecks would show up.. but it would give:
- random groups (guild groups, whatever) an option to fight more even opponents.
- gank groups even more RP, with a higher challenge.

(i didnt mention hibs, cause we all know they are just fluf, and if they do eventually RvR, they bring out 5fg zergs anyway) (that was a joke.. it applies to hibs aswell :p)

ToA extra bonuses could be:
+ the longer away from your own frontier you run, the more rp you get pr kill, but it also gets equally.
 
M

Melachi-

Guest
Originally posted by Xeanor
Well without RAs you'd get the "xxx with 300 days /played was just killed by xxx with 5 days PL" kinda things :/ Time that has been put in needs to be useful, and the ones who play most will have the greatest benefit.

Originally posted by faderullan
Isnt you suppose to keep getting stronger while you play? Isnt that the whole purpose with games like this?

Not trying to pick on you guys for any paticular reason, but just browsed fast over the last few pages and saw this.

This is really what bothers the casual gamers, but the power gamers cant understand. Time should reward players I agree, but not to the extent it does, casual gamers have a hard time competeing and it will only get worse with ToA.

But my honest opinion is, that even though Im more of a casual gamer, most fun I ever had was in a gank group that demolished random'ers.
 
A

amazingsteve

Guest
Casual RvR is not dead.
Yesterday I borrowed an account of a friend of mine (rr6 chanter, yes chantz0r xDDDDDDD), ported to HW, saw a few people buffing. Went over them "hi m8s, chanter available for pwnage"
Got a group (were 6 ppl at that time) and went out in HW, met some enemy groups, killed some, then got killed and released. Decided we could do with 2 more members, so we looked around Ligen and found a warden and another chanter.
We never agreed on more tactics than "xxx is tank MA, Dimlin is mage MA, debuff or if u hear "PBAOE AT ME" we pbaoe."
Still, we killed lots. One fight we killed albs, and then another Alb group (ice wizzie style) added. We kicked the shit out of them (even sat down to regen power lol :p)

Was one of the best fights I had in a while, and not even in a opted group :) Just need to stay out of Emain where the l33t d00ds play in kindergarden.
 
G

Gadd

Guest
casual rvr can still exist, but it's only at non peak times.

i remember a very long time ago i was a 36 armsman and it was about 6am (don't ask) and i went emain, i went out to mpk where a 50 warrior and a 50 skald were there, they didn't attack me and i didn;t attack them. we sat there for ages doing emotes to each till i started (attempting) to attack the skald due to bordem. the skald then killed me and they both went on their way. a few days later i was 38 and going through odins about the same time. i saw a skald and a healer (it was the same skald) and they mezzed me ran around me abit then waved and went off.

now i know this ain't casual rvr or anything just wait a min.

more recently and at about 5pm on a weekday, i was very bored and was making a cleric he was level 4 and i was still very bored, so i went emain for a laugh (had no armour or anything) i made through amg ok and started to go up to dc, when for no reason a skald came pelting at me and use's his insta dd's on me and he was then followed by a very large zerg going after dc. this dwarf could quite clearly see that i was a grey con, with no armour and a shitty weapon. what could he have seriously of gotten from doing that? 1rp?

this is basically making the point that if you want fun try to rvr in non peak times. some of you may dis-agree but i think i'm right.
 
C

ChillyDawg

Guest
Originally posted by Brelakor.
Givf fun rvr :<

well until the debuff nerf comes im quite happy to run in 3spriti cabby+3sorc+2 cleric groups. they pwn, they dont nee dot be rr10 and they have some serious evil tricks, like 6pets - army of interrupters.

Thats fun rvr and im not in the same guild as any of teh peeps in it.
 
O

old.Ashgen

Guest
Yes but ...

Originally posted by Kallio
Yes, CS started off as casual playing but now that it has evolved a casual player doesnt have much of a chance on a server cos all the other guys play at least couple hours a day.

That´s why I havent been playing CS in a long time, long live Day of Defeat! :p

Counter Strike has servers for newbies, and if you get too many kills you get kicked (well at least it used to when I played many moons ago).

Maybe there should be zones where only upto RR3 can play, so people can learn RvR without being blitzed by a group of RR9 and 10 Hibbies everytime they set foot inside emain?
 
B

Brunore

Guest
Re: Yes but ...

Originally posted by old.Ashgen
Maybe there should be zones where only upto RR3 can play, so people can learn RvR without being blitzed by a group of RR9 and 10 Hibbies everytime they set foot inside emain?

Thats not a bad idea actually, maybe an area thats much bigger than the currant BG area with more than 1 keep and some sort of bonus's for holding them, maybe like the relic bonus's.

I think that could work well, then even if you did get fotm gank groups they wouldnt be in for very long really, 62k rps RR3.
 
X

Xeanor

Guest
Re: Re: Yes but ...

Originally posted by Brunore
Thats not a bad idea actually, maybe an area thats much bigger than the currant BG area with more than 1 keep and some sort of bonus's for holding them, maybe like the relic bonus's.

I think that could work well, then even if you did get fotm gank groups they wouldnt be in for very long really, 62k rps RR3.

Then all the rr5+ players quit because there's hardly anyone to kill in the normal zones....
 
B

Brunore

Guest
Re: Re: Re: Yes but ...

Originally posted by Xeanor
Then all the rr5+ players quit because there's hardly anyone to kill in the normal zones....

Erm, no.

There are still a few levels between RR3L1 and RR5.

You *we only run 1fg* guys can actually do that with less people about instead of talking shit about doing it.

But you will have to respec out of the summon zerg RA though.
 
O

old.Ashgen

Guest
Re: Re: Re: Yes but ...

Originally posted by Xeanor
Then all the rr5+ players quit because there's hardly anyone to kill in the normal zones....

I think the opposite in fact. It would give a place for higher RR to go to get some 1FG v 1FG, or 2FG v 2FG without the zerg getting in the way.

It would also give a system of graduation. The more time you put in to RvR the tougher the competition, while the casual gamer could also get some decent RvR?

Regards

Ash
 
I

iceflower

Guest
>Then all the rr5+ players quit because there's hardly anyone to kill in the normal zones....

Wouldnt the rr5 guys have some fun killing each other? Or would it make the playing field too even? :)
 
S

snoz

Guest
Originally posted by )nick(
Mid/pryd and alb/exc are very much alike. Its just mid has it so much easier when it comes to creating 'gank' squads due to the nature of their classes which are a) viable at low RR b) easier to play and c) hib and alb's reliance on their RAs to put up a good fight. (read: NERF SAVAGES)

ZZZ :) Funny how u farm some fotm groups and not others imo.

No skills required etc
 

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