Casual RvR is dead. Long live RvR.

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by the_smurflord
It's exactly this sort of thing that's killing rvr for the majority of people.

http://forums.game.net/showthread.php?threadid=102323

I was under the impression mid/pryd was a bit more easy going? (like alb/excal - more cows I guess heh )

makes you wonder where people are meant to get the RP for their determination 4 for to join that group

 

[froler-mid]

agree somewhat....but like someone said...gankgroups are just another step for those who want more out of daoc. Call it "elitist" or whatever.


Let people play however they want too.


As for "randoms who cant rvr with gankgroups around", just bring more people next time. :kiss2:

 

[Aule Valar]

Originally posted by the_smurflord
It's exactly this sort of thing that's killing rvr for the majority of people.

http://forums.game.net/showthread.php?threadid=102323

this is for a regular guild grp, i can't really see how recruiting 3 people of a specific class/spec is going to stop you from rvring

oh and mid/pryd has very few random grps anymore fing, almost everyone who rvrs does so in guild grps now. sure many of these are little better than random cows, but they are guild grps none the less so probably have a reasonable class balance

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by Aule Valar
oh and mid/pryd has very few random grps anymore fing, almost everyone who rvrs does so in guild grps now. sure many of these are little better than random cows, but they are guild grps none the less so probably have a reasonable class balance

ahh shame.

Still, avoid emain you avoid most of the gankage

 

[Aule Valar]

Originally posted by the_smurflord
It's exactly this sort of thing that's killing rvr for the majority of people.

http://forums.game.net/showthread.php?threadid=102323

oh and try running your guild in an rvr grp, you might like it

 

[)nick(]

Mid/pryd and alb/exc are very much alike. Its just mid has it so much easier when it comes to creating 'gank' squads due to the nature of their classes which are a) viable at low RR b) easier to play and c) hib and alb's reliance on their RAs to put up a good fight. (read: NERF SAVAGES)

 

[naetha]

Originally posted by Aule Valar
oh and try running your guild in an rvr grp, you might like it

We do, and have done for the past year or so, we just don't go to Emain much.

 

[old.linnet]

Originally posted by Flimgoblin
ahh shame.

Still, avoid emain you avoid most of the gankage

If you check the link, they are planning on running this second guild group in Odins ... Have increasingly seen other gank groups around there also.

 

[Silenzio]

Originally posted by Tesla Monkor
just awake

 

[old.Revz]

Originally posted by the_smurflord
It's exactly this sort of thing that's killing rvr for the majority of people.

http://forums.game.net/showthread.php?threadid=102323

Coming from someone who hardly ever RvR/PvPed if I was to have started doing so regularly then it would only ever be in an organised, optimised group of people I knew and trusted. It isn't hugely different from making sure you have an optimal exp group if you can manage it, getting the best equipment for your character and so on. I can imagine it causes problems in guilds not set up to deal with it though which is why recruiting specific classes to RvR regularly at time periods you set down sounds like a good idea to me. Everyone know where they stand then.

PS. Having played in a 4 (pre-LA nerf) zerker, 2 healer, 1 shaman, 1 skald DarkAges group I can say that it is not only good fun to steamroller much larger numbers of disorganised people but Midgard classes are vastly more effective at low level / low realm rank. After playing Albion for all of my DAoC time it left me quite sad about the disparity between the effectiveness of some classes between realms. We didn't even have access to savages so I can only imagine what it is like now...

 

[Aule Valar]

Originally posted by old.Revz
PS. Having played in a 4 (pre-LA nerf) zerker, 2 healer, 1 shaman, 1 skald DarkAges group I can say that it is not only good fun to steamroller much larger numbers of disorganised people

indeed it is , great fun

 

[tripitaka]

Originally posted by )nick(
Correct.

In roleplaying terms: The elitists are legolas and gimli and the zerg is the evil orc horde! We always have competitions to see who can slay the biggest zerg!

In correct terms - I've never seen LOTR or read the books - so i havent the foggiest what ur on about

 

[)nick(]

Originally posted by tripitaka
In correct terms - I've never seen LOTR or read the books - so i havent the foggiest what ur on about

Bah, I knew it would have to come to this.

w3 r0x, j00 s0x!

 

[Kagato.]

I quite enjoy most of those 4 aspects actually.

I generally solo by choice, and rely on your 'sneakies' for rps, as its generally stealthers I meet by doing this. Other times I run in guild groups or more often semi-guild/semi-friend type groups and we make do with what classes our friends like to play and its still fun, elitist or not if you know how to play your character well you can still do something.

However I must admit, I do enjoy the times when I join the elitist rvr groups when there short of a det tank and the fg vs fg fights are thrilling. But its not something i'd want to do every single night to be honest.

However this is not likely to change, guild attitudes and the hunger for rps will keep things as they are until rvr guilds need the help of others for things like relic raids.

Key problems here are players themselves, and the viability of certain classes in rvr.

 

[Shagrat]

I generally solo or run in a casual guild group as well.

Most people seem to complain about mg gate camping these days yet I must say I prefer how it used to be, masses of people battling for the realm gates, ae going off everywhere and everyone having a bit of a laugh. the game has almost got too serious these days.

 

[Aule Valar]

if thats what you like try odins on excal
sitting there looking at the other side while a few scouts snipe each other isn't really all that fun

 

[Damon_D]

Originally posted by rookiescot
Odd that the person with negative views on this post has ........50 shaman 50 skald 50 SB 50 savage 49 healer 43 warrior in his Sig.
Guess the warrior is there for when nerf bat finally hits EU savages

Ohh so because I like this game , I'm not alloved to play it ????

Only peopel who thinks it so lala , and play it twice a week for an hour is alloved to play it ??? What a load of bullshit....

 

[Falcon]

Prydwen was originally a really laid back and casual server, nowadays it's turned (well had when I left) into a server with gank groups only, perhaps from one extreme to the other.

Although I miss running in a gank group I much prefer the casual attitude on MLF, it reminds me of how Hib/Prydwen used to be, casual, fun and laid back - ALL classes can get groups, I nearly died of shock when I was playing my ranger, doing not much and got:

blahblah sends, "Hi, do you want a spot in a 4 fins group?"

Coming from Prydwen I thought I was dreaming, it's something you'd never have seen in a million years in the end there especially as a stalker.

There's definetely an overall lower skill level on the US servers, quite frankly most euro groups would rip the poor sods to shreds (I found it quite amusing that my lvl44 ranger was outmeleeing some gimpy epic wearing level50 merc - there's something very wrong with that) but at the same time, the lower skill level is partly why it's still fun - people don't care so much if they're not in uber SC kit, autotrained to the max, playing the best class ever with the current most overpowered fotm spec. Whereas you do have the min/maxers there (like me), they're much more few and far between but the end result is a server where there's always a keep take to join in, always random groups to join and so on whilst at the same time maintaining the odd gank group, albeit of a lower skill level.

Gank groups are okay and have every right to exist, but IMO instead of telling casual players not to zerg/run 2fg/keep take/MG camp/whatever they should make the effort themselves to avoid the zerg/MG campers or whatever if they don't want to deal with them - not bitch at them and tell them to fo as both parties have an equal right to exist and without one or the other someone's gonna get bored which isn't good for the game.

 

[Damon_D]

amen

 

[Khalen]

Indeed Amen. This is a good thread imo.

 

[GReaper]

You forgot one

5. You join a larger group of players (The Zerg)

Seriously though, take a look at the game...

You get 250 realm points (on average) for killing another person when you're in a full group. You get about 2,000 realm points if your group kills an entire group. You can also get more realm points for rezzing people if you're a healing class.

So, what happens when you actually help your realm? Taking an enemy keep doesn't guarentee any points, nor does retaking a lost keep. You could also be part of a melee group bashing doors down, while a PBAoE group gets all the realm points for defending the keep as they'll do more damage.

Players get rewarded with realm points for killing others, this rewards the player with realm abilities which makes the character better.

So those who stay in Emain constantly get more realm points than someone who actually helps their realm. Whats more logical for users, help realm or sort a gank group?

The design of the game needs changing.

 

[Ottar]

> Personally, I hate it. Zergs are good. Zergs are fun.

Tesla, I suspect there is a reason for you thinking so and most other people not liking zergs. Your main RvR class is hunter right? That 1 or 2 is bad while 3 or 4 is good only applies to ranged stealthers. With archer, you can join a cg, show up in areas where zergs are happening, sneak around the edges, get some kills, great fun. Or you can go out alone and if you have decent RA's maybe even survive some solo fights.

For most others, zergs in DAoC suck.

Why? Lemme tell ya.

1. Summoning a zerg is PAIN. Actually, this you should know better than I do. You was running FFA TG raids at some point? Thats 3fg+ more or less random people with more or less random classes and random attitudes. Only thing more mindnumbing than sitting on a spot, waiting for people to show up, come back from linkdead, come back from afk and so forth is trying to Lead all that to some meaningful purpose. Making these as regular weekly events such as TG raids helps a bit. Imagine now doing same thing daily at MPKE.

2. Now imagine taking such force into rather more fluid and unpredictable action than killing domis in spineroom. With number of people increasing, the number of people currently afk, linkdead, relogging, rebuffing, whatever else they may be doing goes up in nonlinear fashion. Trying to move such zerg around and keep it moving as more or less coherent force through various interruptions is PAIN.

3. The purpose of all this is having big fights right? With an archer yeah, its kinda fun. Lag doesnt affect you that much. Very different story for people in the very midst of it. When your zerg meets their zerg, what happens is first you get like 10s lagspike with your screen frozen solid. Now, if youre lucky and you managed to survive that, you will get a period of running around madly trying to do something meaningful with sub 1 fps while having your field of vision blocked by people around you. Woe to you if you forgot to turn /effects none.

4. Now, suppose all this served its purpose, your zerg was bigger than their zerg and your side is the one that remains standing. What follows is ressing, rebuffing and relogging (even with SI client, after 1 or 2 big fights relogging is necessary). That gets you back to step 2, getting on move again takes time and causes much frustration.

Zerging works fine and is fun in Planetside. It doesnt and it isnt in DAoC. And that aint going to change in ToA, nor with Frontiers.


What to do then?

Now, what will and to a degree already has happened is RvR with "linked groups". Think it was PE that started doing it and both albs and hibs now do this regularly.

You got multiple full groups, optimzed and skilled to a varying degree, roaming around a zone, all in contact with eachother and not too far appart. When a fight occurs, groups closeby will show up and "add", usually guaranteeing a win even if the first group was losing.

That model gets rid of most of the problems with classical zerg. Each group is made independently so no Summoning The Zerg is involved. Each group moves around independently, no "STOP PLZ G3 THANE IS OOS". Normal fight size with adds is 2fg vs 1fg, 2fg vs 2fg, 3fg vs 2fg, so the lag is still kinda tolerable. With this model your group doesnt have to be all minmaxed with rr9 players either, tho independant speed and healing is still a must.

Of course, this doesnt solve all the casual rvr player's problems but it does equalize the scene a bit.

Ottar

 

[old.windforce]

one of the complains about toa is that it gives advantage to teh zerg and hinders ganksquads to kill zergs.

i think mytic sees the trent and is taking masures to make casual rvr (aka teh zerg) more viable

 

[old.Emma]

Can't be assed to read the whole thread but its pretty much on the my line of thaught anyway.

The situation now is all swings and roundabouts.

People form optimised "gank groups"

People form Zergs to counter the "gank groups"

Random groups who are generally made up of casual players can't do anything to either of those. They cant kill "zergs" and they stand no chance against the optimised gank groups.

Remove the gank groups and zergs take over, remove the zergs and "gank groups" take over. Either way there just isnt room or place for the casual gamer now adays.

 

[Kagato.]

In defense of casual players I have to say I have been in a few fairly random groups (a few guildies, a few friends etc) that have done very well and killed of several full guild groups despite being imperfect.

A random group is far from defensless, its just a matter of people knowing how to assist and player there characters.

Guild elitists may do better on average but I have seen them fall to imperfect groups before.

Personally I wish I could transfer my character to a more easier going server, though if prydwen is becoming as bad I guess there wouldn't be any point now.

 

[Tesla Monkor]

I know, Ottar. Yes, my main is a huntress. However, these problems only really showed themselves to me when I was playing something OTHER than my huntress, who is soloing 99% of the time anyway (and actually has that option).

Regarding your suggestion of 'semi-optmized groups', it's really nothing other than a baby-level gank-group. You will not find and sbs, hunters, BDs, etc in there. It's just people will less time to invest immitating the people who play the game all the time. Getting more of these groups running around will not fix things, and will most likely make things only worse.

To quote Kemor: 'Sure, I could add a level 50 battleground for those gankgroups, but it would be pointless. Most of them are NOT interested in the fun of fights. Almost all of them are only interested in harvesting RPs as fast as possible. When you see two of them run into each other, one of them will inevitably move to another frontier to avoid running into them again.'

People playing in those groups and then posting on BW that they grained RR8, RR9, RR10 in record time kinda make me laugh. It's like finishing first in the championship lawnmowing.

The problem at the basis isn't the game, really. It's mentality of the people playing it - fun isn't as important as winning to some people.

 

[Damon_D]

Well as said I aint some uber gamer , who has some uber high RR chars , but zerging AINT FUN no matter what you say......

 

[Aule Valar]

Originally posted by Tesla Monkor
People playing in those groups and then posting on BW that they grained RR8, RR9, RR10 in record time kinda make me laugh. It's like finishing first in the championship lawnmowing.

And what about the people that whine that championship lawnmowing spoils the fun of their personal lawnmowing so it should be stopped?
sounds more pathetic to me

 

[Cavex ElSaviour]

hhmmm.. nice constructive thread with no flames (yet).

Anyway, my two cents:

Imo everyone has the right they wish to play the game they want to play. I am a casual player my self with the luck of beeing in a pretty big guild. often we can manage to form a balanced grp (sometimes even two). What i noticed is that we do ok against other fg's. And when we meet an uber gank group then we need the luck to get an "add" group. afaik every elite group has a hard time against 2 balanced fg's.


and concerning my prefferences: big 3 way battles (where each realm has 3 fg;s) is my idea of fun. Especially when you're busy (or dead) and hear: "more hibs inc. wait, 2 more albs grps inc" etc

 

[Ottar]

> People playing in those groups and then posting on BW that they
> grained RR8, RR9, RR10 in record time kinda make me laugh.
> It's like finishing first in the championship lawnmowing.

How many LGM crafters did you have again? 6?

> fun isn't as important as winning to some people.

You said zerging is fun. Some people think winning is fun. Flame me. At least I tried to argument why zergs in this game cant be much fun imo.

> You will not find and sbs, hunters, BDs, etc in there

Actually, you might. Running the best group setup possible at any given time is that otherwise you lose too many fights. And winning is fun (to those "some people"). So, if you devise another way of making sure you win enough fights, running best possible group setups becomes less of an issue. Certainly forming groups is less tiresome when you have leeway in regards to what class/spec you need to make it work.

If Myfic in their infinite wisdom has gimped some classes to a degree that unfortunates playing them still dont have a chance of getting even pickup groups, then blaming gankgroups for that is quite silly isnt it?

Its simply a rather poorly designed game unfortunatelly. Soulfly had is pretty much right, was realm abilities and later the zerker nerf that turned mid/prydwen into ganksquad country. Wasnt any before and now we have nothing but.

Ottar