Casual RvR is dead. Long live RvR.

T

Tesla Monkor

Guest
This thread is partially a complaint to noone specifically, just addressing a general problem that DAOC is starting to exhibit. I can only speak for the RvR situation on Prydwen, as I have no alts on Excalibur that RvR (yet).

Currently, there are several ways in which you can participate in RvR.

1. You're part of a carefully balanced group that knows exactly what they're doing. (The Elitists)
2. You're a stealther, either alone or grouped. (The Sneakies)
3. You run solo (The Brave Ones)
4. You join random groups at portal keeps and venture into the frontiers. (The Cows)

In my opinion, only 3 and 4 should be valid RVR tactics. The situation as it is on Prydwen right now make both of them impossible. Number 3 is obvious, and would be hard to pull off on any server, regardless of it's RvR-health, but 4 should always be available and currently is less viable than even option 3.

The thing most annoying is 1. Not because they're good at it - they're too good at it, if anything. Every realm has them, and most people know when to run like girls if a particular colour cloak is running in your direction.

These people have spend considerable time in perfecting their groups into effective killing machines. This is neither good, nor bad in itself, but it's having a rather nasty side-effect.. It's destroying the casual RvR for everyone else. At any given time you see several of these so called 'Gank groups' running about, and noone likes to gather up groups, wander down the portal hill and get pounded into a red smear.

Personally, I hate it. Zergs are good. Zergs are fun. Everyone can do something in a zerg without getting shoved under the grass in 2-3seconds flat. Gankgroups are NOT what DAOC was made for, and they're causing more damage than most people realise - On top of which some of them are sickeningly arrogant when addressing people wanting to run alongside with them in smaller groups - safety in numbers, after all. If I could, I'd wish people had never invented the optimised group idea. :/

Just a few thoughts.
 
D

Damarmas

Guest
I agree fully Tesla

Even an hour ago I was talking to a person which has quit daoc quite some time ago (just after SI came out) we ran around a bit in the universe, entered a random rvr group to head out into odin's... no need to mention we were taken down by Warder's at AMG, no need to blame Warder's, they're just better at gathering a good useable group for RvR plus being used to run together. The group I was in was totally crushed, think we were killed in max 10 seconds ( yes, no more then that )

There's nothing for random groups today... not even 4 full groups of more or less random cows can do much against the greatest Gank Groups. It's a shame, but there's little to do about it.

I myself have no char above rr4, even though having played since day 1 of release here in EU, I've played far too much in my own opinion, and still I've not been able to reach the goal I really want before quitting... a "Celt Thunderer" and I doubt I ever will, as I'm in a guild that isn't too active in RvR together, and most of the members are casual players and far from FOTM minded, which is needed in most of the Gank Groups.

I salute the gank groups, you are skilled because you've stuck with a class, setup and full group... and I envy you, I would've been in one myself if I had just had a useable char back when the race started, or could have arsed myself to leave the guild which I am co-founder of, and have been in since december 2001 in the beta.

<shrug> I lost this round I guess
 
S

Stekkerdoos

Guest
I completly share your opinion, I loved the time long long ago when you could just go to emain or something and joing the ARMY of albion and have fun even when your not in a group. The big battles and stuff.
RvR now, as you described it is one of the reasons i left daoc.
 
M

Marcus75

Guest
I agree also - going out for casual RvR isnt possible any more without _really_ knowing the people you play with cause then you are indeed sheep just waiting to get eaten.

At the moment my RvR is mostly in DF since you dont get run over in the same way as in the regular RvR-zones.
 
Y

Yussef

Guest
People will always strive to have an advantage, there's nothing that can be done about it really.
 
L

lakih

Guest
Cows!?! pfft, i prefer the term sheeps... other then that i agree :(
 
D

Damon_D

Guest
LOL so you want to more or less exclude peopel from the game if they play a stealther , or if they ain't lemmings...nice :rolleyes:
 
T

Tesla Monkor

Guest
Damon, the problem is not as simple as that. You simply can't have all forms of RvR at the same time.

'Balanced Groups' do not mix with 'Casual RvR groups'. Stealthers are a matter apart - consider them highly specialised balanced groups. A few casual groups can hand a stealth group.

One thing has to give. And as the majority of the players are casuals, I say it's pretty obvious what has to go. Or, if you prefer, the miscalculation that Mythic made and that is now actively killing RvR.
 
O

old.TeaSpoon

Guest
Originally posted by Damon_D
LOL so you want to more or less exclude peopel from the game if they play a stealther , or if they ain't lemmings...nice :rolleyes:

I think he meant including all of the aspects, whinebag :rolleyes:
 
S

Shike

Guest
yup, agree pretty much Tesla, some say ToA help out abit though, we'll see about that though. :)
 
D

Damon_D

Guest
Originally posted by old.TeaSpoon
I think he meant including all of the aspects, whinebag :rolleyes:

Pfft say's " only 3 and 4 should be valid RvR tactics..... "

kinda sounds like if your an " Elitist " or a stealther your not wanted in this game ....

So FO æsel-diller :m00:
 
D

Damon_D

Guest
Originally posted by Tesla Monkor
Damon, the problem is not as simple as that. You simply can't have all forms of RvR at the same time.

'Balanced Groups' do not mix with 'Casual RvR groups'. Stealthers are a matter apart - consider them highly specialised balanced groups. A few casual groups can hand a stealth group.

One thing has to give. And as the majority of the players are casuals, I say it's pretty obvious what has to go. Or, if you prefer, the miscalculation that Mythic made and that is now actively killing RvR.

Well if I have the choise of a server where it is as now , or a " Lemming server " I will stick to this thank you very much....

I dont want the " old days " back where everybody was running around like headless chickens ... 80% of em ungrouped ..or in so crappy group setup's that they might as well be solo... I dont mind some 2fg v 2fg's fight's or such.. but 50 headless chickens v 50 headless chickens in some random zerg aint my idea of fun tbh...

I was there in beta where 90% of the peopel where thanes and runemasters , thinking the uber tactics where to spam aoe spells as fast as possible..... sure the light-show was impressive..but fun... not realy

I play games like these to atleast try to aply a measure of tactics , and tho I'm no super gamer ..not by a longshot , I can hold my own...But there is no tactics in zerg war fare.. just numbers...
 
A

Aule Valar

Guest
Originally posted by Tesla Monkor
Damon, the problem is not as simple as that. You simply can't have all forms of RvR at the same time.

'Balanced Groups' do not mix with 'Casual RvR groups'. Stealthers are a matter apart - consider them highly specialised balanced groups. A few casual groups can hand a stealth group.

One thing has to give. And as the majority of the players are casuals, I say it's pretty obvious what has to go. Or, if you prefer, the miscalculation that Mythic made and that is now actively killing RvR.

Sounds very much, i like this idea of rvr, so thats the way it should be designed and made
if you want some sorta server where we can't play with our friends where people can't play with their friends every night, then why play a mmorpg at all. We like playing with our friends, and we see no reason why we should run bad setups and lose more just to make other people happy
 
O

old.TeaSpoon

Guest
Originally posted by Damon_D
Pfft say's " only 3 and 4 should be valid RvR tactics..... "

kinda sounds like if your an " Elitist " or a stealther your not wanted in this game ....

So FO æsel-diller :m00:

I retract my comment. (but not the whinebag bit :p)
 
R

rookiescot

Guest
Odd that the person with negative views on this post has ........50 shaman 50 skald 50 SB 50 savage 49 healer 43 warrior in his Sig.
Guess the warrior is there for when nerf bat finally hits EU savages :p
 
A

Aule Valar

Guest
Originally posted by rookiescot
Vodka level 50 Merc Prydwyn
Mudwitch Level 42 Cabalist Prydwyn

join us on prydwen sometime :p

oh and on unfairness note
i don't think people should be allowed a lgm sc/alch on the same account as a mundane crafter, as most casual players can't get 2 lgm crafters, and this makes it hard for them to compete with people who can craft and sc/alch stuff for others
 
K

Kallio

Guest
Hmmm... I cant understand this.

And before anyone starts I did play my thane to 5l8 in totally random groups "Thane lfg!" is something I´ve shouted many many (many) times. But Now I play a shaman.

Anyway to the point.

Many people think that it should be able to make "random" groups at mtk, yeah well that´s with what I started.

you start and gather few friends, and few essential classes, such as speed, CC and healing. Then you start to invite people from guilds you know and such, make your own groups. If you cant win in emain go odins.

But the fact is as follows:

If you are good at something, let´s say football, or anything where it´s your team vs. the other team. you start to wish, and will that everyone else you´re playing with are as good as you, if not even better.

And realm ranks do make a difference. A RR5 player is much more use than a RR2 one, you dont take low evels in the group that much do you? (well I do, in PvE but that´s different, just for you to get the idea)

And I would like those massive battles, but it´s impossible, when albs were on bliend(exc) the other day I went there and it was a friggin slideshow.

Try to make sense of it, to see what I mean :p
 
T

toxx

Guest
its evolution in action.

All games start off as daoc did, and all games finish as daoc will.. people get better at the game in general, and like to compete on higher lvls, its no shock, all games go through the process.
 
S

SoulFly Amarok

Guest
Originally posted by Tesla Monkor

If I could, I'd wish people had never invented the optimised group idea. :/

Blame the game, Realm Abilities did that.
 
S

SoulFly Amarok

Guest
Originally posted by Tesla Monkor

If I could, I'd wish people had never invented the optimised group idea. :/

Blame the game, Realm Abilities did that.
 
D

Driwen

Guest
Re: Re: Casual RvR is dead. Long live RvR.

Originally posted by SoulFly Amarok
Blame the game, Realm Abilities did that.

without RA's optimised groups would still exist. As long as not every possible setup is just as strong, there will exist a "perfect" group setup. Games usually turn to more "professional" style of play when they get older. I dont think you can stop it, other than not listening to it and trying to avoid where such groups roam (like going to HW) or switching games after its 18 months old.

So there isnt anyone to blame, it is something that will just happen when you have a competive enviroment as people dont like to lose.
 
N

)nick(

Guest
Originally posted by toxx
its evolution in action.

All games start off as daoc did, and all games finish as daoc will.. people get better at the game in general, and like to compete on higher lvls, its no shock, all games go through the process.

Correct.

In roleplaying terms: The elitists are legolas and gimli and the zerg is the evil orc horde! We always have competitions to see who can slay the biggest zerg!
 
K

Kallio

Guest
Yes, CS started off as casual playing but now that it has evolved a casual player doesnt have much of a chance on a server cos all the other guys play at least couple hours a day.

That´s why I havent been playing CS in a long time, long live Day of Defeat! :p
 
V

Validus

Guest
Originally posted by Shike
yup, agree pretty much Tesla, some say ToA help out abit though, we'll see about that though. :)

ToA helps? hah! well see how helpful it is when ull see frikkin panther zergs running around the frontier
 
N

naetha

Guest
Evolution - adapt and survive.

Its a logical progression that has created these optimised RvR groups. If you get killed by a group, you look at what went wrong, you try and take measures to ensure you have a way of countering whatever was the deciding factor in the last fight, and you use it in your next fight.

I am from a guild that has always RvR'd to some extent, but has recently got good at it - people in the guild get depressed when their char gets steamrolled in RvR, so they roll an alt that is more RvR suited. Now we nearly always have a mincer (mach 5) sorc (CC) and a cleric and another buffer (either friar or cleric) - not because we're trying to be elite, but because we know its a setup that works.

When random PK groups get continually steamrolled, it is usually because they are missing the basic foundations or because they were outclassed/outgunned, not because they don't have 3 x det tanks. PK groups are usually the starting points for people new to RvR that are low realm ranks and are unaware of the need to always stick up after fights, getting pets off healers, etc etc.

Successful Rigante groups that have had this base setup have often had reavers, cabalists, wizards, infiltrators, scouts, and other 'non-optimised' setups, and still been successful. The first time we beat Bad Omen we had a merc, 2 scouts, a theurgist, 2 clerics a sorc and a mincer - hardly optimised, but a good group none the less.

I don't think its elitist not to RvR at primetime unless you can find the base for a good group - it would be like going up a mountain without the proper equipment.

As for the 'casual player' complaints, there are no casual players imo, just good players that are dedicated, and mediocre players that can't really be bothered. It doesn't matter how much time you spend on something, if you apply yourself, you are more likely to succeed than if you expect to get your rewards handed to you on a plate.

I know plenty of 'casual RvRers' that are approaching RR5, and have done so by listening to more experienced people, asking advice from higher realm rankers, watching, and learning from experience.

Just because its a game, doesn't mean that people should stop acting like they do in real life, you need dedication and application to succeed in this game, as you do in real life, and through that you will get real enjoyment from the game. Nobody likes to fail.
 
K

Khalen

Guest
I totally agree on this post. And I'm glad I ain't the only one.
 
A

Addlcove

Guest
Originally posted by naetha
asking advice from higher realm rankers, watching,


somehow I managed to read Realm Wankers....

teacher didn´t like me laughing in class :)
 
F

Flimgoblin

Guest
It is a point - a group with 2 clerics and a minstrel will do a million times better than a group without....

That said I am glad to be on alb/excal - we have our share of "elitist" guild groups but we also have a fair few pickup groups, they generally run in 2-3-4fg, but given that they'd get mauled by JH or whatever otherwise it's a good thing. And you even still get the odd fg vs fg fight - just annoying there's not as many casual mids out in emain - mid/excal seems to have the same attitude in general as alb/pryd.

But that's why I generally take HG to Hadrian's Wall or Odins - HW will have Yaruar's thane-gank-squad or a hib group with mentalists and animists, these groups generally have some healing and some speed - not quite the same level as the "pros" in emain, but it means it's a lot less predictable too.

Odins is generally a bit more dangerous - the groups are more fotm than not, but that said even a HG gimp group with a smite cleric, reavers etc. will still do OK.

Admittedly we do have some people who do a reasonable amount of RvR - kinda balances out the people that play for 4 hours once a month ;) but we take them with us too.

I imagine that sort of casual gamer would be pretty much at a loss if they didn't have a guild though.

Anyway I'll stop waffling, should probably make a point:

At least on alb/excal you can survive in a non-fotm group, either by getting a few more numbers (cue whine about zergs ;)) or going somewhere different.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Similar threads

J
Replies
6
Views
786
kaine_1
K
P
Replies
44
Views
2K
Laston
L
A
Replies
91
Views
4K
dukat_lionheart
D
X
Replies
33
Views
3K
iceflower
I
R
Replies
7
Views
801
Roo Stercogburn
R
Top Bottom