Casual RvR is dead. Long live RvR.

[Xeanor]

I guess me (FL) and Faderullan (PE) are the biggest gank-group leaders on your server Tesla.

And to be honest, we started it because there were others pounding you into the ground all the time.

First there was a time a zergs and zergs and zergs, after that there was less RvR kind of, the time just before DF was implemented. This was made up of little to full groups of just random people. Some guilds make their own groups for RvR, these were totally gimped compared to now. But when guilds fight each other more often, one will eventually lose the most if not all of the fights, you want to improve, this is where the improvements kick in and it mainly starts with balancing of the class-setup in your group. When RAs and SC got into the game, these groups got access to both of those, easily. Whereas the casual player only got access to the SC part, and a little bit of the RAs part, which gave the more optimized groups the upper hand, and to be honest, the difference between no SC and SC is huge, you're gimped with no SC, someone in epic armor nowadays is just a easy kill, free realm points.

Sure, it can be fun to get the upper hand and stand above other players, I can imagine it's not fun for them, but it's just the game works atm, and the reward for running a gank group is just a lot bigger than running a zerg...

 

[munk]

Imo yes RvR is suffering under gankgroups. that having been said, i love watching Dem Hibbies destroying the alb zerg ^^
u hit Bittelitten for 27(-175 damage)

but i also like watching Champions League footie on the TV.
and i know i dont have to train 7 days a week, 3 times a day so i can play with em.
i can go play some nice, fun, slow only slighty competitive football
with my friends at the local football grounds.

one idea could be RR based battlegrounds from 1-4 or something in addition to normal RvR. i know not the best; omg give this guy a medal type idea ever. but it was the best i could come up with.

BUT this still wont solve the problem for the ppl who want to solo.
for them u could make a BG where once u are in combat only 1 person at the time can hit u :swords: and ofc pray u dont meet a BD.

 

[Tesla Monkor]

Agreed, Ottar. You make valid points.

And I'd like to add that it's refreshing to see so many carefully worded opinions without flames.

 

[Shike]

Originally posted by GReaper
So, what happens when you actually help your realm? Taking an enemy keep doesn't guarentee any points, nor does retaking a lost keep. You could also be part of a melee group bashing doors down, while a PBAoE group gets all the realm points for defending the keep as they'll do more damage.

Players get rewarded with realm points for killing others, this rewards the player with realm abilities which makes the character better.

So those who stay in Emain constantly get more realm points than someone who actually helps their realm. Whats more logical for users, help realm or sort a gank group?

The design of the game needs changing.

yup exactly that is a big part I really dont like, if keeps mattered more RVR would look alot different from the Emainroaming it is today, I think RvR would be more spread out at least. I like keeps and keepsieges (dunno why, I just like keeps), but so few others do.

 

[Xeanor]

In the end, it's about how much reward people want for their time. One person can have a fun job and not make much money, another one can have job that is a real hell but is very rewarding ($$$). I've seen people try to finish Quake as fast as possible, just to achieve something others haven't achieved yet. "Be better than someone else", while others just buy a game for their xbox and play it relaxed and finish it and go on to the next one. It's just in people's minds and will always be there, a need to be better.

 

[old.Emma]

you think optimized gank groups are bad now. wait till ToA. a group of 16 hibs 9 of which had Master Level Abilities lvl 9 attacked an managed to get into a relic keep defended by 40 albs on Nimue.

ML9 for casters is basically perma mana bar.

I dread to think what the likes of Dem Hibbies/NP (caster groups) would be like with Master Level abilities to augment there allready very high realm rank.

 

[scarffs]

Nice thread, good attitude.
Bw gets better just before dying.

 

[old.yaruar]

Originally posted by Damon_D
Well if I have the choise of a server where it is as now , or a " Lemming server " I will stick to this thank you very much....

I dont want the " old days " back where everybody was running around like headless chickens ... 80% of em ungrouped ..or in so crappy group setup's that they might as well be solo... I dont mind some 2fg v 2fg's fight's or such.. but 50 headless chickens v 50 headless chickens in some random zerg aint my idea of fun tbh...

I was there in beta where 90% of the peopel where thanes and runemasters , thinking the uber tactics where to spam aoe spells as fast as possible..... sure the light-show was impressive..but fun... not realy

I play games like these to atleast try to aply a measure of tactics , and tho I'm no super gamer ..not by a longshot , I can hold my own...But there is no tactics in zerg war fare.. just numbers...

tactics...

Get cc off before enemy

10 /macro assist
20 /macro stick
30 /sprint
40 /spam style
50 goto 10

 

[old.yaruar]

Originally posted by Flimgoblin

But that's why I generally take HG to Hadrian's Wall or Odins - HW will have Yaruar's thane-gank-squad or a hib group with mentalists and animists, these groups generally have some healing and some speed - not quite the same level as the "pros" in emain, but it means it's a lot less predictable too.

Although the thane squad is no more as most of the key members have jumped the sinking ship that was the Ghosts of Valhalla leaving only 3 or 4 active players now...

Although have no fear, I do have plans to drag some friends out to HW for some fun now and again.

 

[Damon_D]

Originally posted by old.yaruar
tactics...

Get cc off before enemy

10 /macro assist
20 /macro stick
30 /sprint
40 /spam style
50 goto 10

Yeah I do that alot , especialy when I solo with my SB
no wait..... Well nm offcourse you know best how I play my chars....

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by old.yaruar


Although the thane squad is no more as most of the key members have jumped the sinking ship that was the Ghosts of Valhalla leaving only 3 or 4 active players now...

Although have no fear, I do have plans to drag some friends out to HW for some fun now and again.

bring a few HG rvr seems to be popular these days - usually have between 1-2fg, sometimes even more.

(and we met loads of other albs in HW - didn't quite understand it was a good night last night though, some good fights especially the 2fg hibs (who were slightly split up to their detriment) shortly followed by some nasty savages who caught us with no mana/instants = dead HG )

Bit painful when DH arrived with 2fg+ of other hibs (bloody pets - can never count how many ) didn't stand a chance.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Hmmz. Short answer or wordcount buster. Who knows, here we go

First thing I noticed was that Fedaykin didn't easily fall into any of Tesla's categories and secondly that several of the guilds I know of (allied and not) also lie slighty outside. These are guilds that have experienced players, RvR together casually, but tend to have reasonable groups when they go out. This means high RR carefully perfected/optimised teams and a zerg are a threat, but we often find we are up against enemy guilds that shock horror astoundingly play exactly the same way. Its also about knowing to pick where you fight. You also tend to find that these groups talk to each other a lot - the linked RvR that Ottar talks about. I don't think this is new though, there's usually a CG for each area of the frontier running at some point though there will be some duplication as people do their own thing of course.

I tend to RvR in two separate ways: guild decides we're going out to play or when big stuff needs doing and technically what I end up in is a pick-up group. I do occasionaly casually RvR in pick-up groups because I still like grouping with different people and though you can end up in some really bad groups, sometimes you get a real chuckle out of it. Pick-up groups tend to have low staying power I've found. People quit very easily when things don't go their way. This is an attitude problem, and not a problem with the game. If you don't work at something, you don't get better at it though I conceed the motivation to keep plugging away with people of varying tempraments that you don't know well can be very low.

I agree pretty much with Naetha's post, and to a degree most of Ottar's. However, Ottar may have pointed out that zergs are hassle and basically not very mobile, but if you recall, one of the criteria for the upcoming Frontiers expansion is the ability to get players to the action fast. I will be surprised if there are not teleporters in keeps or towers you can capture etc.

Yes RvR has changed a lot. I remember being lvl35 and people camped milegates or PKs and that was RvR, and there was very little roaming RvR. RvR was running out into Emain at lvl30 or so solo, unbuffed and you still had a chance. Agreed, those days are long gone, but thats partly due to the servers maturing (yes I know some will object to that choice of word ) and now we have a situation where you are unlikely to be effective in RvR below 45 (I would argue its actually higher than this, say lvl48/49, but 45 is usually the accepted level) unless there is keep-take related activity going on.

To my mind, a zerg is just a lot of players in the same place at the same time with the purpose of getting RP. There is no particular goal, just a lot of people who happened to come online at the same time and went to the same 'hotspots' for some casual RP farming. These are uncontrollable to any great degree. I think Ottar got that mostly right. (I don't think its a zerg when you take a lot of people out with a goal or some kind of purpose. In DAoC, this is keep taking or relic raids.)

One of the problems DAoC has always suffered from is coordinating large forces. Originally only 50 people in a CG, then upped to 200 with more control. Better but still not perfect. Battlegroups are going to change the way we coordinate realm level stuff and make it a damn sight easier.

Agreed that RvR has changed a lot since original release. I don't think this is a bad thing. Though some look back with rose tinted glasses, I didn't really like it back then - remember, I played one of the outcast classes which was one of the weakest in Mid, not particularly liked in groups. It would be more accurate to say that the way RvR used to be suited some people and the way it is now suits others.

I think RAs are a good idea. There needs to be a reward system to keep people's interest. I don't think the way it was implemented was very good. Mythic used RAs to balance differences between PvE earned skills between the realms which meant some classes from each realm basically suck in RvR until they get a few realm levels and some realms have ridiculously effective RAs while others get the dross and individually in all realms some classes have really low utility RAs due to them being badly thought out or badly implemented.

I'm afraid the biggest problem in all RvR remains the ability to have bots. I think you'll find this more at the root of problems than most other things. I'm not trying to divert this thread, this is a simple fact. This is what kills the solo classes more than anything, and ups the ante for hard core groups. The effect becomes even more exaggerated when buffbotters get RAs on their bots. Limit the range on buffs, even if its large, and most of the problems with bots will go away.

Oh, and "Evolution in action", a quote from one of Larry Niven's books I think, yes?

 

[dakeyras]

I have a feeling alot will change slowly and subtely over the next 6 months or so (or for us Euros maybe 9-12 months).

The statements that have been coming out of Mythic recently indicate that they realise there is a problem with the gank group world RvR has become, and when they realise there is a problem then they act. They are, afterall, a business and a business will look after it's 'bread and butter income' first and foremost. With WoW and others on the horizon their interest is in retaining the subs of the masses, not the elite few.

One of the real problems, as I see it, is that certain players only want to run 1fg with 'optimal' setup etc, and they strive to impose this on others. They strive to impose running in 1fg on other, often casual, players because this provides them with the best oppurtunity for harvesting rps. Add to this fully capped out gear etc and it is a hard combo for the casual gamer to beat.

An optimum group is hard to counter because the game isn't meant to be balanced 8 vs 8 and was never designed to be balanced 8 vs 8. When players whine about meeting the 4 seer/4 tank setup and demand balance their whine falls on deaf ears cause Mythic ain't gonna balance for 8 vs 8. Mythic's aim is to balance for RvR and I think they are pretty close to that. I believe the gank group is just another phase in DAoC evolution.

Mythic are very good at slipping major changes in through the backdoor with no fanfare, no patch notes etc. I remember when Mythic wanted to reduce damage across the board by more than a third, and put the patch on Pendragon. Casters whined that they needed full damage and should be exempt. Stealthers whined they should be exempt...and that left tanks as the only victim when this reduction was to help tanks against godly casters and stealthers. Mythic publicly pulled the patch to keep everyone happy...then did it anyway.

In a world of 89% qual, AF98, 25% bonus everyone suddenly got a free 100%, AF100, 35% bonus suit. Then came resists, RA's etc etc. Mythic wanted the damage reduction to help tanks and they got it.

Now we are seeing some more subtle backdoor introductions that could change RvR drastically. Who is gonna pay 20-25 plat for maxed out gear that will survive a month of heavy use? And who is gonna be able to farm the cash to keep their gear maxxed, and still have time to RvR.

The days of players running around in optimal gear are numbered and I think with other changes coming in via MLs, frontiers etc we will see the end of 8 vs 8.

I for one think it will be a better game.

 

[Falcon]

Originally posted by old.Emma
you think optimized gank groups are bad now. wait till ToA. a group of 16 hibs 9 of which had Master Level Abilities lvl 9 attacked an managed to get into a relic keep defended by 40 albs on Nimue.

ML9 for casters is basically perma mana bar.

I dread to think what the likes of Dem Hibbies/NP (caster groups) would be like with Master Level abilities to augment there allready very high realm rank.

Keep up with the times, nerfed last week FYI

 

[toxx]

Originally posted by Roo Stercogburn
Oh, and "Evolution in action", a quote from one of Larry Niven's books I think, yes?

LOL! Yes

Oath of Fealty... good read if i must say so

 

[vintervargen]

Originally posted by toxx
its evolution in action.

All games start off as daoc did, and all games finish as daoc will.. people get better at the game in general, and like to compete on higher lvls, its no shock, all games go through the process.

 

[Gadd]

this is the whole reason i'm joining gaheris, to get away from all this rvr crap of gang groups and excessivly large zergs.

on gaheris you fight npcs, no-one to complain with, no arguements, no lack of enemies only enjoyment.

 

[froler-mid]

Originally posted by Gadd
on gaheris you fight npcs, no-one to complain with, no arguements, no lack of enemies only enjoyment.

imo: on gaheris you fight npcs, no-one to complain with, no arguements, no lack of enemies only boredom.

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by Tesla Monkor
This thread is partially a complaint to noone specifically, just addressing a general problem that DAOC is starting to exhibit. I can only speak for the RvR situation on Prydwen, as I have no alts on Excalibur that RvR (yet).

Currently, there are several ways in which you can participate in RvR.

1. You're part of a carefully balanced group that knows exactly what they're doing. (The Elitists)
2. You're a stealther, either alone or grouped. (The Sneakies)
3. You run solo (The Brave Ones)
4. You join random groups at portal keeps and venture into the frontiers. (The Cows)

In my opinion, only 3 and 4 should be valid RVR tactics.

All 4 should be valid and have a place so that everyone can enjoy the game the way they wish to play. Sadly 3 and 4 aren't really viable these days - but that doesn't stop people trying. It just means they spend more time porting back and forth - which is more of a pain to the casual gamer as they tend not to have as much time to play.

 

[GReaper]

Originally posted by Gadd
this is the whole reason i'm joining gaheris, to get away from all this rvr crap of gang groups and excessivly large zergs.

on gaheris you fight npcs, no-one to complain with, no arguements, no lack of enemies only enjoyment.

Typical Gaharis?

Oooh the fun!

 

[eynar]

Sorry, but disagree completely with you on this one. Afaik people still prefer winning over losing, hence they create the best available group before going out to rvr. Simple as that really, and I can hardly see anything wrong with it...

 

[eynar]

Originally posted by Gadd
this is the whole reason i'm joining gaheris, to get away from all this rvr crap of gang groups and excessivly large zergs.

on gaheris you fight npcs, no-one to complain with, no arguements, no lack of enemies only enjoyment.

OMG, did you even read the game's description before buying it? If you don't like PvP, go play Horizons or so imo...

 

[chretien]

Optimised groups are fine. They are an inevitable consequence of Mythic adding ways to raise yourself above the herd and people working out the best way to win. What's not ok is the snobbery about zergs and people insisting that all fights should be 1fg v 1fg otherwise you are lame.
When that attitude vanishes then RvR will be a lot more accessible to everybody - Gank squads will still harvest RPs but casual players will have a chance to get some RvR action in which they don't just get mezzed then flattened by the assist train/mana bombs.

 

[Gadd]

Originally posted by eynar
OMG, did you even read the game's description before buying it? If you don't like PvP, go play Horizons or so imo...

NO! i only played game for 14 months!

and i did play horizons, but it's crap, i like daoc. why shouldn't i have the opportunity to play on a PvE server? because PvP/RvR is available to me? besides, just because i'm moving to gaheris doesn't mean i'm not gonna rvr/pvp. if anything i'll do more over there as there are more servers for me to choose from, including rp servers which look like fun.

i want to play gaheris, you don't, fair enough just don't crap on my lawn because you don't like my flowers

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by eynar
Afaik people still prefer winning over losing, hence they create the best available group before going out to rvr.

The problem is that unless you have "the best available group" (i.e. the perfectly balanced gank squad) you're gonna spend most of your time porting back and forth. The game needs to be more forgiving to those who aren't able to get the perfect group so that all can enjoy some level of rvr.

 

[scarffs]

Hmm, thats not going to happen.

 

[iceflower]

The broading gap between the 24/7 players and the casual players is a testament to design mistakes made by Mythic. The competitive nature of the game will have players spending as much time as they can on getting the advantages the game provide. However, looking at the RA component of the game with some hindsight it is apparent that it helps to accelerate the gap. It theory it is a great idea but from a practical point of view it is a bit weird that those that play the game most, and by definition is supposed to be more skilled, should get more help from the game rather than just rely their own skill and items they have gotten to their characters.

 

[Xeanor]

Well without RAs you'd get the "xxx with 300 days /played was just killed by xxx with 5 days PL" kinda things :/ Time that has been put in needs to be useful, and the ones who play most will have the greatest benefit.

 

[faderullan]

Isnt you suppose to keep getting stronger while you play? Isnt that the whole purpose with games like this?

 

[Kallio]

Originally posted by GReaper
Typical Gaharis?