Caster damage, melee damage

[Heta]

baah, I think caster dmg and melee dmg are pretty ok as it these day, atm you can run both tank/mix/caster group successful. It ain't as it was before when it was all the way tank or all the way casters to actually be able to kill something.

 

[Bubble]

got a good one


Nerf Lifetap to only gain something like 25% of damage (All 3 realms effected)
Nerf Pet Intercept (Midgard effected)
Nerf Brittle Guards to only allow 1 out at a time (all Realms effected)
Nerf Stun proc on pets (All 3 realms effected)
Nerf Charge,Det 5 (to allow Crowdcontrollers a small chance to do there job)

 

[Azathrim]

But their pets don't intercept if I'm not mistaken.

<shrug> Neither does the SM pet have any utility at range like snare nukes, heals, debuffs, buffs, etc, etc. All it does is intercept, melee and some melee based procs.

 

[remi]

But their pets don't intercept if I'm not mistaken.

no, they have other abilities like chain stun etc..

 

[remi]

got a good one


Nerf Lifetap to only gain something like 25% of damage (All 3 realms effected)
Nerf Pet Intercept (Midgard effected)
Nerf Brittle Guards to only allow 1 out at a time (all Realms effected)
Nerf Stun proc on pets (All 3 realms effected)
Nerf Charge,Det 5 (to allow Crowdcontrollers a small chance to do there job)

dont agree on last one, problem is the banelord abilities if you ask me.. ;p

 

[Arid|Disci]

dont agree on last one, problem is the banelord abilities if you ask me.. ;p

I agree givf banelords on a 1 min timer !

 

[Vilje]

* 10% resist piercing (= straight up 10% more damage on enemies in SC)
* 9% more magic-damage (= straight up 9% more damage)
* 10% more cast-speed (= straight up 10% more DPS)
* 10% more range (= abit hard to factor this in)
* 25 more DEX
* 25 more INT

* Melee Damage
* Style damage
* Melee speed
* 25 more (insert the stat(s) your weapon is based on)
* Add +to cap on stats needed which is individual.
* Hits

It's not unreasonable to say a TOA'ed caster has 35-40% more DPS then an unTOA'ed caster. Not to mention often more AF, brittleguards and bodyguarded. MOC is now more expensive, 'only' 75% damage (which is still more then pre-TOA MOC if you factor in above 'bonusses') but on a 10 mins timer and twice the duration.

Its probably not unreasonable to say that also ToA'ed tanks has 35-40% more DPS than an unToA'ed tank. Not to mention charge, det, resist buffs, interupts, banelord abilities. All that you say about moc might had been true, if the value and tools of other classes templates had all been in the state of preToA. Add all the bonuses you like, but if you use moc, and moc on a tank which has a good template and resist buffs, you're gonna do poor dmg. If a tank hits a caster, its not very uncommon that they hit for more than what casters can do to them.

Tanks still have a swing-cap of 1.5 second, and haste reduces the styled-component, so it cant be added up as easily as with casters. People mentioning Banelord and Charge, but those are not available to all classes, in Hib there's 2 classes with BL and Charge, Mid and Alb have 1 class with it. Hardly a viable counter, and just not relevant when you're one of the poor hybrids who get none (Thanes, Valks, VW, Friar, Paladin, Warden) or one of the heavy tanks.

Casters have a casting speed cap at 40% of the base casting speed of the spell, meaning: 2.5 sec casting speed will cap at 1 second, 2.8 spells will cap at 1.12, and 3 second spells will cap at 1.2 seconds. This happens at 386 dex + 10% casting speed.

You also need to be at range, and dont be interupted to gain advantage from this speed. Many classes can interupt other than the ones with BL-abilities, and tanks which dont have charge+det does atleast have det. You only need one banelord to keep zerg/group interupted, and I can imagine the horror if all the tanks could get it. The good thing is that if one class gets an ability, then there is also a class that gets another ability which is ment to counter this. Like the bodyguarder, which brings the balance into the game. Hybrids also have their advantages, and they bring balance to the game aswell.

Imo, if you place all these abilities, different classes, different RA's etc in one big fight, they would cancel eachother out, and that it is pretty balanced as it is.

 

[Flimgoblin]

It helps up your unstyled-damage. Damage of a style is unstyled-damage + style-bonus, so yes it helps your styled-damage aswell.

Style bonus is indeed based on unstyled damage according to wyrd's crazy spreadsheet thing - question is is the %to melee added in before it's used for the style bit? probably but I might run a test to make sure.

If we assume it does however:
+10% style damage isn't going to approach +10% damage overall unless you have massive growth rate styles (warning lots of pointless maths )

x base damage,
x*a style damage (where a is the style multiplier - a number based on growth rate and damage caps and the like, something like 0.5 if for example you do 100 base and 150 styled)

total =(1+a)*X

increasing melee damage by 10% means x increases by 10%: so (1+a)*1.1X
increasing style damage by 10% is increasing a by 10%: (1+1.1a)*1.1x

For this to be an overall increase of 20% it'd have to be that:

(1+1.1a)*1.1x = (1+a)*1.2X (increase of 10% style and 10% melee = increase of 20% melee)
1.1x+1.21ax = 1.2x+1.2ax
0.01ax=0.1x
0.01a=0.1
a=10

So you'd need your style multiplier to be 10 - i.e.
You perform your uberstyle perfectly(+500)
You hit for 550.

+%style might count as nearly +10% in damage for a PA - not very likely for any other style.

(at least if the algebra part of my brain is still working - someone doublecheck those calculations for me please )

I'd try and work it out the other way (so we could see what sort of overall benefit a +10% style damage is providing compared to +10% melee damage for a given style multiplier) but it's friday afternoon and my brain has definitely stopped working now.

+10% style damage is a long way from +10% more damage total - however it might be as much as a 15% damage total increase which in the rest of your post you've pointed out isn't muych compared to how much casters got


One good reason that comes to mind for not adding in melee resist buffs (of the 24% for 10m kind) is that there's no melee resist pierce

 

[Puppet]

* Melee Damage
* Style damage
* Melee speed
* 25 more (insert the stat(s) your weapon is based on)
* Add +to cap on stats needed which is individual.
* Hits

Its probably not unreasonable to say that also ToA'ed tanks has 35-40% more DPS than an unToA'ed tank.

Under assumption they are balanced without those, then the improvements with TOA would been fair.. However, your assumption a light-tank has gained 35-40% damage is simply not true.

Its more like 22-28% damage, mostly as result that the swing-speed is hardcapped at 1.5 seconds and haste lowers your style-bonus, so a 20% haste increase doesnt give a straight up 20% dps increase.

Not to mention the anti-melee counters are much more widely spread then the anti-caster counters. And dont forget some really silly stuff that an intercept by a Brittle doesnt interrupt the caster. Neither does a SM-pet intercept. Stuff like a Brittle intercept against a 2H tank gives a caster quite easily 2, in some rare cases 3 free nukerounds without interruption. That's, from 1 brittles, 1500 HP gone from that tank in your scenario nuking for 495.

 

[Shike]

if you got more then around +10af in your SC you most likely gimped somewhere else. And such small amount of af dont make alot of difference really

huh?

I have +30 or +40AF (think its 40, i have lost my template) on my merc with capped TOA, capped stats I need, capped resists.

+AF is already on some items ppl use in templates.

 

[Darzil]

+10% Melee + 10% Style = +10% Damage.

They don't stack as Flim suggested they might, I believe.

If they did stack, 0.9 is a high growth rate style, over 1 is rare. If we assumed a 1 gr style, it'd be a 15.5% increase in damage. More typical growth rates are around 0.6, which is a 14.125% increase in damage.

Melee haste doesn't increase style damage, only base damage, so the net effect of 10% Melee haste, 10% style damage and 10% melee damage is 16.875% if melee and style don't stack (on a growth rate of 0.6), or 21% if they do stack.

Darzil

 

[remi]

who made this into a math thread?


LOCK IT IMO!1111111:touch:

 

[Vilje]

Under assumption they are balanced without those, then the improvements with TOA would been fair.. However, your assumption a light-tank has gained 35-40% damage is simply not true.

Its more like 22-28% damage, mostly as result that the swing-speed is hardcapped at 1.5 seconds and haste lowers your style-bonus, so a 20% haste increase doesnt give a straight up 20% dps increase.

Not to mention the anti-melee counters are much more widely spread then the anti-caster counters. And dont forget some really silly stuff that an intercept by a Brittle doesnt interrupt the caster. Neither does a SM-pet intercept. Stuff like a Brittle intercept against a 2H tank gives a caster quite easily 2, in some rare cases 3 free nukerounds without interruption. That's, from 1 brittles, 1500 HP gone from that tank in your scenario nuking for 495.

Maybe they havent gained as much offensive-wise as casters from ToA, and maybe they have. But I for one wont be conviced until someone accually does the math and takes everything into consideration.

Not sure what you mean by that the anti-melee counters is more widely spread than the anti-caster ones. But I for one think its pretty damn even. Like so many others have said before: 1on1 different classes will have different advantages/disadvantages over each other. Yes, sm may have advantages 1on1 over heavy tanks as it now stands, but there sure is classes with advantages over sms aswell ( ex: many other casters, you pick one ). But in the bigger picture this is exactly what creates the balance which we so persistently seek. I wish to keep/find this balance so that very balance so that everyone can be satisfyed. But that can't really happen 1on1-wise. The balance in the bigger picture must be priority one.

The scenery you discribe above is the absolute worst possible for a heavy-tank 1on1 with a sm. It does not oftenly happen exactly that way, and if it does -Well, run-through and strafe is happily used tactics. You make it seem like every time a heavy tank meets a sm, the sm will have 4 brittle guards and the sm pet will intercept like mad. It wont. What would you give the sm to compenstate for the loss of the sm-pets intercept? I then think especially of those who spec the now "not so popular" suppression line, and for dark-users aswell. As for getting 3 nukes out of a brittle guard, I think that has never happened to me. More like 1 and rarely 2 (run-through). The advantages and disadvantages of the different classes over other classes, and their abilities, creates the balance in the bigger picture.

Sorry for being off-topic

 

[Azathrim]

Actually, a heavy tank could just shield wipe to clear any brittle guards any caster may have. That's one melee hit to clear all guards as well as attack the caster.

 

[Tuorin]

The scenery you discribe above is the absolute worst possible for a heavy-tank 1on1 with a sm. It does not oftenly happen exactly that way, and if it does -Well, run-through and strafe is happily used tactics. You make it seem like every time a heavy tank meets a sm, the sm will have 4 brittle guards and the sm pet will intercept like mad. It wont. What would you give the sm to compenstate for the loss of the sm-pets intercept? I then think especially of those who spec the now "not so popular" suppression line, and for dark-users aswell. As for getting 3 nukes out of a brittle guard, I think that has never happened to me. More like 1 and rarely 2 (run-through). The advantages and disadvantages of the different classes over other classes, and their abilities, creates the balance in the bigger picture.

Sorry for being off-topic

Tbh this is kinda funny. The only sm a heavy tank hits are those that use their pets to hit something away from them. Rarely if ever do you get a hit through sm intercept as a heavy tank. I can recall last week for the first time in recent memory getting slam into a sm with his pet there and it took me 5 successive slams on a target also being hit by a bm to hit the sm. i was the first one to hit him, everything went into pet. The reason why it was slam was that the sm mocced lafjtapped and started killing 2-3 people standing there without a bg screwing entire group. This sm was rr10 and had a cohort of brittles which were killed by BM.

I'll post some logs from events with sms in game when I have them, thats if can get group in first place (for the reasons above ^^plus lack of banelord)

Any changes to heavy tanks are a given, go read the goa feedback form and see actually how many people asked for alterations. Whether its right or wrong, dunno, it's only 1.81C.

 

[Tuorin]

Actually, a heavy tank could just shield wipe to clear any brittle guards any caster may have. That's one melee hit to clear all guards as well as attack the caster.

1 they have to be in your frontal arc so strafer can move them out of that and 2 you must target the brittles. 3 you must be alive by that point vs 3 caster groups.

 

[Puppet]

Not sure what you mean by that the anti-melee counters is more widely spread than the anti-caster ones. But I for one think its pretty damn even.

Its not even close to equal, to avoid magic-damage:

* Empty Mind
* Avoidance of Magic
* Resist-buffs
* Bainshee Magic Abla
* Fanatism

That's about it.

For melee: Block, Evade, Parry, Intercept, Bodyguard, Grapple, Brittleguard, self-BT, PBT, mincer abla, physical defense, Absorb-buffs (BD, Ani, Necro), alchemy ablatives, and Im sure if I think abit longer I can think of a few others.

That's not 'close to the same'

 

[Puppet]

1 they have to be in your frontal arc so strafer can move them out of that and 2 you must target the brittles. 3 you must be alive by that point vs 3 caster groups.

Brittles often 'lag' so much they dont get hit by shieldswipe, but can magically intercept even from 2K 'lag-range' :S

 

[noaim]

Its not even close to equal, to avoid magic-damage:

* Empty Mind
* Avoidance of Magic
* Resist-buffs
* Bainshee Magic Abla
* Fanatism

That's about it.

For melee: Block, Evade, Parry, Intercept, Bodyguard, Grapple, Brittleguard, self-BT, PBT, mincer abla, physical defense, Absorb-buffs (BD, Ani, Necro), alchemy ablatives, and Im sure if I think abit longer I can think of a few others.

That's not 'close to the same'

How about interrupts, zone of unmana, demoralization, bedazzling aura, heretic RR5? Interrupts alone are enough to avoid magic damage though if you dont get outplayed by better opponents or are talking about 1 vs 1 fights? And before you whine about moc, try killing something with moc up when you get zou+demo on you.

 

[Bubble]

Its not even close to equal, to avoid magic-damage:

* Empty Mind
* Avoidance of Magic
* Resist-buffs
* Bainshee Magic Abla
* Fanatism

That's about it.

For melee: Block, Evade, Parry, Intercept, Bodyguard, Grapple, Brittleguard, self-BT, PBT, mincer abla, physical defense, Absorb-buffs (BD, Ani, Necro), alchemy ablatives, and Im sure if I think abit longer I can think of a few others.

That's not 'close to the same'

Yes because i love it when my Sorc Blocks 5 times in a row etc.

I'll not bother repeating myself anymore

 

[Puppet]

How about interrupts, zone of unmana, demoralization, bedazzling aura, heretic RR5? Interrupts alone are enough to avoid magic damage though if you dont get outplayed by better opponents or are talking about 1 vs 1 fights? And before you whine about moc, try killing something with moc up when you get zou+demo on you.

Heretic RR5 RA was listed. Bedazzling Aura I counter with BOF. ZoU and Demo well all nice but lets include STR-debuff, DEX-debuff, STR/CON-debuff, DEX/QUI-debuff and ASD then aswell ? Actually pretty sure red DEX/QUI-debuff + red ASD is like ZoU for a tank, except it doesnt have a 5 mins timer :/ Demoralization affects melee aswell.

Im pretty sure a SM can kill a tank without MOC and ZoU+Demo on him with just pressing ML9 Summoning Mastery. Might need a quickcast LT to make sure u survive, but doubt it :S

 

[Puppet]

Yes because i love it when my Sorc Blocks 5 times in a row etc.

I'll not bother repeating myself anymore

I give you a 90% immunity to melee just because you're a sorc then.. Oh wait u already have that oO

 

[noaim]

Heretic RR5 RA was listed. Bedazzling Aura I counter with BOF. ZoU and Demo well all nice but lets include STR-debuff, DEX-debuff, STR/CON-debuff, DEX/QUI-debuff and ASD then aswell ? Actually pretty sure red DEX/QUI-debuff + red ASD is like ZoU for a tank, except it doesnt have a 5 mins timer :/ Demoralization affects melee aswell.

Im pretty sure a SM can kill a tank without MOC and ZoU+Demo on him with just pressing ML9 Summoning Mastery. Might need a quickcast LT to make sure u survive, but doubt it :S

Newsflash, you can dexdebuff casters too, and shears hurt a casters damage way more than it hurt that of a tank. Do you know why? Because casters are dependant on doing much damage fast if they are gonna kill something.

 

[Azathrim]

While we have puppet whining his head off, think of this:

A caster is weaker to another caster, than a tank is to another tank.

 

[Bubble]

I give you a 90% immunity to melee just because you're a sorc then.. Oh wait u already have that oO

Yeah its really great!

While the Zerker is meleeing me for 50 instread of 400 for a few seconds, i can't do FA while this is happening because SoI and MoC don't work together due to Stealther Whines. So i have a single quickcast that i can use to mez him for 5 seconds(if he isn't crowd control immune via charge) or lifetap for 150ish after demo. When its over i can switch on MoC3 and lifetap for 120ish instead every 2.5 seconds(assuming hes not using run-through) and while hes Meleeing me for 400+ every 2 seconds (assuming no Banespike is used) I could always kite him and wait for Prevent Flight to proc, then he at least gets to use uber behind style procs

 

[Vilje]

For melee: Block, Evade, Parry, Intercept, Bodyguard, Grapple, Brittleguard, self-BT, PBT, mincer abla, physical defense, Absorb-buffs (BD, Ani, Necro), alchemy ablatives, and Im sure if I think abit longer I can think of a few others.

That's not 'close to the same'

Aye, but remember that many of those the caster dont benefit from all the time, and many is only for tank vs tank. In addition the ones you mentioned vs magic dmg is always active. And many of the things mentioned in the melee-list is "secondary", and "at times". Also some additional ways to counter magic damage was mentioned some posts above.

Tbh this is kinda funny. The only sm a heavy tank hits are those that use their pets to hit something away from them. Rarely if ever do you get a hit through sm intercept as a heavy tank. I can recall last week for the first time in recent memory getting slam into a sm with his pet there and it took me 5 successive slams on a target also being hit by a bm to hit the sm. i was the first one to hit him, everything went into pet. The reason why it was slam was that the sm mocced lafjtapped and started killing 2-3 people standing there without a bg screwing entire group. This sm was rr10 and had a cohort of brittles which were killed by BM.

I'll post some logs from events with sms in game when I have them, thats if can get group in first place (for the reasons above ^^plus lack of banelord)

Any changes to heavy tanks are a given, go read the goa feedback form and see actually how many people asked for alterations. Whether its right or wrong, dunno, it's only 1.81C.

Don't know exactly what you find funny. We both agree on that the pet can be a pain if it is by the sm and it intercepts. My personal experience is that sometimes the pet intercepts everything, and sometimes not al all. And then I get killed in a fraction of a second by some MA tank train just like everyone else. This has also happened solo, vs both light and heavy tanks -Although most vs light tanks/dw'ers.

About the moc, I personally find that my dmg gets too nerfed if I used it, and it often gets countered ( cc and such<-->fg action), so I'd personally rather have passives. Although moc can be very handy solo at times.

Like I said in my previous post: I think this is the sms advantage, and if you take it away -what would it make the sm?

While we have puppet whining his head off, think of this:

A caster is weaker to another caster, than a tank is to another tank.

Good point

 

[remi]

Yeah its really great!

While the Zerker is meleeing me for 50 instread of 400 for a few seconds, i can't do FA while this is happening because SoI and MoC don't work together due to Stealther Whines. So i have a single quickcast that i can use to mez him for 5 seconds(if he isn't crowd control immune via charge) or lifetap for 150ish after demo. When its over i can switch on MoC3 and lifetap for 120ish instead every 2.5 seconds(assuming hes not using run-through) and while hes Meleeing me for 400+ every 2 seconds (assuming no Banespike is used) I could always kite him and wait for Prevent Flight to proc, then he at least gets to use uber behind style procs

is that a whine? really? other casters would be eating the grass by then.

 

[censi]

lower cast speed SLIGHTLEY...

but increase the amount of magic defense RA's.

Atm theres like millions of ways to nerf melee(BT PBT AF buffs, ABS buffs, PD, Malice, Battler, warguard, intercept pets, ablatives, soi, som, wh, parry, evade, block, brittles)

U got like resist buffs and AOM to counter magic mainly.

casters were always conceived to have this awsome damage output. problem is they been given too many tools to counter mellee.

start giving other classes the same sort of defense shit we have to put up with.

Do fooking summin about bonedancers to in the name of god.