Caster damage, melee damage

[Coldbeard]

From my point of view it is fairly balanced in fg vs fg atm.

1v1 or zerg is a completly different story though..

 

[Matriarch|Sneakers]

Discuss

Do things need to be modified? is casting speed too much? is dps from casters too much? is it balanced by interrupts? is melee damage too weak?

Caster DPS is way to high at current state. One thing u could do to balance it would be highr cast speed lower caps, same as for melee.

Problem is casters interrupt code can be viewed as fucked up. And I don't know what you should change really. Tho at current state caster do way to mutch damage.

:touch:

 

[Matriarch|Sneakers]

Yea, agree on the lifetap part, mayby remove the lifetapping component when useing MoC would solve alot of issues.

ineed it would but still, casters do too mutch dmg, not rare to get nuked for 850 dmg nowdays. Thats imo is just silly when its a caster with almost 400 dex, 10% casting speed...

 

[Zebolt]

not rare to get nuked for 850 dmg nowdays. Thats imo is just silly when its a caster with almost 400 dex, 10% casting speed...

not rare to get hit for 850 dmg nowdays. That imo is just silly when it's a light tank who can't be interupted/stunned/rooted/mezzed...

 

[Gryni]

NERF SM pet and insta lifedranin (hallo warlock/bds) ImO


oh.. Albs and Hibs need Celerity

 

[GReaper]

Just another thought...

Players/groups with decent magic resists are generally fine against casters, being able to get 40-50% resists helps ease the damage. Those without resist buffs are usually limited to 26%, which shouldn't be too bad.

However a caster with 10% resist pierce reduces those resists quite badly. A caster without any resist buffs has merely 16% resist, an awful amount. With yellow resist buffs it's usually 32% - which isn't too far from the typical 26% melee resist. Red resist buffs gives 40% resist, a fairly decent amount.

More casters than ever have Erinys Charm and Jacina's Sash (or other artifacts) to get that perfect 10% resist pierce. Would removing resist pierce instead of reducing overall damage be more balancing?

 

[Ctuchik]

nah I mean more ways around interrupts) or reducing things like 1000 radius spammable interrupts from light tanks is what's needed.

mids had that, but albs and hibs were whining so much they made it the only one that needed a cast timer.... of 4 seconds....

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

What's with all the MoC? a good caster wont even have MoC if you ask me.

Cough... Maybe in the Midgard easy mode group setup. I was MoC1 till RR8Lx, it's much easier to kill a BD (hello PD5, hello healing pets) or SM (hello intercept pet) with MoC3 than it will ever be without. The silly amout of interrupts Midgard has forced me to go MoC3.

But I'm sure you even win fights against Warlocks without MoC.

On the topic, I agree with Ehtildis here, reduce the damage across the board or increase hit points. Simplest and fastest solution.

The game balance currently is pathetic, I leave the keep to get ganked on my Arms 4 (WL, Healer, Shammy, something) vs 1, just to log my Sorc in and kill the 4 people on my own. So we have some ubah gimp here that can be happy to come into melee range to do any damage and an easy mode class that shut downs half a group from range and kills it from range. If it would be any balanced a player would have the same chance to kill someone 1 on 1.

A better approach to balance the game would be the complete removal of run speed buffs inlcuding an increasement of base running speed. This way you could actually have more tactical positioning and not just clashing into each other. Support and soft targets would be in the back line, heavy tanks and hybrids in the front line.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

However in group vs group things ARE balanced... and that's what this game is about ... group vs group AND LARGER SCALE fights (before someone reminds me it's RvR not GvG)

RvR is a container, it includes 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2, 4 vs 4, 3 vs 10, 50 vs 50, FG vs FG, GvG and whatever.

Just stop telling people the game is about group vs group fights (and you prolly mean equal sized groups of 8 by saying that) and larger scale fights as long as it is possible to meet people 1 on 1. On the larger scale fights point: LAG, LAG, LAG and crashing RvR zones and super biased towards casters. 100 casters > 100 tanks unless someone drops 100 RR5 Reavers with safefall 11 on all the casters.

Even group vs group things are NOT balanced, just check the recent poll in the RvR section, most people actually think Midgard is group easy mode and that is partly the opinion because SMs with intercept pets and PD5 BDs are a pain in the ass to fight for tanks. Add RR5 Warrior for BG and here we go.

Balance does not exist, not even in chess where white has a chance to win 55% of the matches afair, but DAoC is far far far away to be balanced in any particular point.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

kill or be killed, use tactics in ur grps, DR will bring a change to the set grp setups imo..seen as all chars have the option or interupt casters easily...but then again casters will have shields + styles...hm

With what? With fixed 2-3s cast time spells?

 

[Herjulf]

Yeah balancing is needed.

Some Casters can dish out 500-900dmg/s with extremely low resistrate/missrate. 2% has been mentioned. This with TOA bonuses and toa/ra effects.

Melee has swingspeed capped at 1.5spd and 16.5dps(at rr5+) basedmg.
And there are myriads of counters to melee all together.
Sorc rr5 ability, brittleguards, pbt, disarm, BITCHGRAPPLE etc etc.
And a possible in rvr MISSRATE of up to 8%, this from testlogs.
And also alot of lag related problems such as not in view, to far away and so on bugs. Things that simply do not cause much problems for casters.


A start in balancing is would be to raise resistrate in RvR to spells.
A system is already in place, making melee have a CHANCE at interupting casting and not nescessarily doing so, is that bugged in that case fix it to relieve some of the casting problems.
Specced spells must be giving more return then base spells hint hint sorc lifetap.
Casting more then one brittleguard remove the oldest, so only one brittleguard possible at the time.
Look over caster damage alltogether, some ppl dish out sick amounts of damage sorcs, warlocks in particular. Not funny to be hit with 800-900ish dmg/s with ML,TOA and RA bonuses kicking in. With capped resists, you feel quite powerless.
Alot of casters out there HIB casters in particular is pretty ok, they can be evul also. But not near sorc, wiz, WL, theurg.
There are some melee classes that should be looked over a little to. but imo its more of a TOA+NF (ML+artifact) problem in that case.

 

[Azagthoth]

for heavens sake we all know casters is to good vs a tank thats a fact.
If the tank aint got /charge they are utterly crap, arms, heros and such cant realy do anything when the casters starts sprinting.

They can with the cast speed.
And then drop casters speed so heavy tanks have a chance of getting to you.

And as far as the whiiiiiining about casters get perma interupted.... I just dont get that.... ofc you should be dead if a tank gets to you in melee range.
But you got moc now so I dont see why you complain.

And as said above this game isnt just fg vs fg plz remember that.

Vonf ML9 RR5 Merc.

 

[Puppet]

More casters than ever have Erinys Charm and Jacina's Sash (or other artifacts) to get that perfect 10% resist pierce. Would removing resist pierce instead of reducing overall damage be more balancing?

Basically that is a 10% damage-nerf on the casters with TOA-set ?

 

[Azathrim]

Yeah balancing is needed.

Some Tanks can dish out 500-900dmg/1.5s with extremely low resistrate/missrate. 2% has been mentioned. This with TOA bonuses and toa/ra effects.

Magic has castspeed capped at 40% of delve and 3*delve (no bonus gaining RR5+).
And there are myriads of counters to magic all together.
BAoD, EM, Resist buffs, Interrupts, Bainshee ablative, the entire Banelord line etc etc.
And a possible in rvr RESISTRATE of up to 8%, this pulled out of the air.
And also alot of lag related problems such as run-through, LOS problems and so on bugs. Things that simply do not cause much problems for melee.

Corrected it for you (as this seems to be the trend to do in this thread).

You see, there's always two sides of a coin.

I still personally think melee and magic are pretty balanced at the moment. Both ways are powerfull. Both ways have its counters in different forms.

Certainly some classes from each archetype are more powerful than others in the same archetype. Warlocks are working as designed (the design is pretty stupid though). Armsmen are less powerful than Mercs, but heavy tanks will get improvements in 1.81.

 

[Deepflame]

Then this war is being fought with only artilery and spies

Aren't all wars? Artillery and spies offer the lowest death ratio on your own side, while they wreck havoc on the enemy. Then once that's done you move in tanks and infantry to occupy the area.

Though, there was a lot less artillery in medieval times, but hey, there were also a lot less wizards in medieval times too.

 

[Tesla Monkor]

Well, casters get +damage bonus and +resist pierce bonus from ToA gear. Removing resistpiercing as bonus would go a long way to evening out the odds. Why would casters need 20% damage bonus where every else got 10%?

 

[Puppet]

Well, casters get +damage bonus and +resist pierce bonus from ToA gear. Removing resistpiercing as bonus would go a long way to evening out the odds. Why would casters need 20% damage bonus where every else got 10%?

Tanks got style and melee-damage. Not 20% totally, but its not that far off.
Archery received the lowest improvement.

 

[Azathrim]

Not to mention melee don't face resist buffs.

 

[Shike]

Tanks got style and melee-damage. Not 20% totally, but its not that far off.
Archery received the lowest improvement.

You forget that everyone have access to +AF in templates too that decrease meleedamages/archerdamages even more so I think its more close to 10% than 20%.

 

[Corran]

You forget that everyone have access to +AF in templates too that decrease meleedamages/archerdamages even more so I think its more close to 10% than 20%.

if you got more then around +10af in your SC you most likely gimped somewhere else. And such small amount of af dont make alot of difference really

 

[Flimgoblin]

Tanks got style and melee-damage. Not 20% totally, but its not that far off.
Archery received the lowest improvement.

Does +%melee affect style damage?

 

[Flimgoblin]

Not to mention melee don't face resist buffs.

just ablative, self bladeturn, pbt, brittle guards, roots, sprinting, kiting, arms reach, entwining snakes, shield trip, bodyguards, grapple, block, guard, parry, intercept, pet intercept, SoI, blade barrier, blinding dust, ferocious will, retribution of the faithful, etc.

(most of the RR5 RAs are anti-melee - there are some anti-magic ones, heretics notably, and some general use ones too of course but the large majority are anti-melee)

but probably more appropriately - there's no casted melee resist debuffs either you get the odd proc here and there but no spells to do it.

 

[Ogen]

Afaik +toa AF does jack shit in this patch. Keep in mind the hitpoint difference on tanks/casters when speaking of the amount of damage each type are dealing.

 

[GReaper]

To quote one of the artifacts with resist pierce:

Reduces enemy target's resistances versus all magic damage by 5%. Only resists gained from items are reduced.

Perhaps if it was changed so that it would reduce resists from buffs only?

I don't see a nerf against all magic damage being necessary, however my opinion is that resist pierce is slightly overpowered. Players without resist buffs are punished quite badly.

 

[Dorin]

only thing that pissed me off when playing a tank is the "get in range" stuff, especially against zergs.

as zephina said in fg vs fg its fairly balanced as tanks got time to get in range and hit stuff... but in zergs casters - archers dominate, thats true since retail though.

 

[Puppet]

Does +%melee affect style damage?

It helps up your unstyled-damage. Damage of a style is unstyled-damage + style-bonus, so yes it helps your styled-damage aswell.

I agree with GReaper partially, tho I think resistpiercing should be gone totally. Putting it on resist-buffs would be a piss-take against some clerics who spec for 8% energy-resists for example, those would be entirely useless against Hib PBAE for example.

Casters really didnt need 'another 10% more damage', dont forget at the moment they get, ideally:

* 10% resist piercing (= straight up 10% more damage on enemies in SC)
* 9% more magic-damage (= straight up 9% more damage)
* 10% more cast-speed (= straight up 10% more DPS)
* 10% more range (= abit hard to factor this in)
* 25 more DEX
* 25 more INT

It's not unreasonable to say a TOA'ed caster has 35-40% more DPS then an unTOA'ed caster. Not to mention often more AF, brittleguards and bodyguarded. MOC is now more expensive, 'only' 75% damage (which is still more then pre-TOA MOC if you factor in above 'bonusses') but on a 10 mins timer and twice the duration.

Tanks still have a swing-cap of 1.5 second, and haste reduces the styled-component, so it cant be added up as easily as with casters. People mentioning Banelord and Charge, but those are not available to all classes, in Hib there's 2 classes with BL and Charge, Mid and Alb have 1 class with it. Hardly a viable counter, and just not relevant when you're one of the poor hybrids who get none (Thanes, Valks, VW, Friar, Paladin, Warden) or one of the heavy tanks.

 

[remi]

But I'm sure you even win fights against Warlocks without MoC.
.

Learn the interupt code and there is no use for MoC.

Im like your arms when it comes to 1vs1, dies helluva lot more then i pawn stuff. Still i like it, if i get the jump on anyone i will pawn it.

In fg rvr, im much more of use, debuff for other cold nukers, bolting, ns'ing. not insta dieing.

Melee and Magic is very balanced if you ask me. Best setup today is 2xLighttank, 2xCasters. Try run all casters vs that setup and you will die mucho fast.

 

[haoth]

the only problem is debuff\assist nuking + a zerg of brittleguards

 

[remi]

Cough... Maybe in the Midgard easy mode group setup. I was MoC1 till RR8Lx, it's much easier to kill a BD (hello PD5, hello healing pets) or SM (hello intercept pet) with MoC3 than it will ever be without. The silly amout of interrupts Midgard has forced me to go MoC3.

PD5? what caster gives a fuck?
SM pet? sorc have pet, cabby have pet, thuerg...all hib casters zzz.

the above, wtf does it have to do with MoC anyway?

Newbie lifetappers have MoC, this is what most anticasters whine about, MoC and lifetap, i hope Mythic gets rid of it, really.

 

[Deepflame]

SM pet? sorc have pet, cabby have pet, thuerg...all hib casters zzz.

But their pets don't intercept if I'm not mistaken.