Bittorrent under attack

[nath]

There seems to be a bit of an us and them thing forming here - I don't think anyone here is outright defending *all* forms of piracy, some are just saying that not all piracy is the baby eating monster that some others seem to suggest it is.

 

[Falcon]

Actually falcon, Aces is a video dealer like me.

When you are in the business then you can pass such opinions imo of course. It makes me laugh how you know so much about what does and what doesn't affect my business. Own a video shop do you?

No but there was a darn good reason I'm well paid and was in California back in March, I wont embarass you too much but I'm certainly not the best person you could've chosen to try out that kind of childish comment on.

 

[nath]

Aww go on, embarrass him

 

[Trem]

No but there was a darn good reason I'm well paid and was in California back in March, I wont embarass you too much but I'm certainly not the best person you could've chosen to try out that kind of childish comment on.

Erm...what was childish?

Was it as childish as "OMGZ I AER TEH PAID HIGHLY!!"2111!!!" that you seem to keep repeating. I'm sure it makes your penis massive. Now theres childish for you.

Edited to say - PM me if you want a slanging match Falcon, or alternatively PM me if you want a discussion regarding this subject. If you have sensible input then I would be more than willing to have a chat. It concerns me greatly.

 

[Falcon]

I think you should look back at your posts, I've actually be very mature, I didn't feel the need to put you down by mentioning my line of work like you did. I mentioned my pay originally because it was directly related to my comments on being able to afford movies and such, I mentioned it a second time to give you a good hint about the industry I might work in , I'm not the one who needed to make the "I own a video shop so know everything" comment.

I've given plenty of sensible input, if you didn't bother to read it that's upto you but why ask for something I've already given? Perhaps if you take a look at what everyone here arguing against your attitude has said your business could do better (Hint: Video rental just costs too much and isn't cost efficient enough for most people). It'll do you a lot more good taking in people's complaints and reasons for not using video shops than claiming people are wrong about it all and you know better because you own a video shop.

 

[AcesHigh]

DVD rental is Value

Just to pick up on a few points,you suggest DVD rental is not good value..the next time you walk into a privately owned family store take a look at the selection of titles..something you wont find in the chains.That store owner has INVESTED in the business & not STOLEN the titles off the net!!
Film distributors do not supply indie stores free of charge or at a discounted price in fact they pay top $.Unlike those bright shiny Blockbastars or Choiceless'
Not everyone has an income where they have so much disposable income so renting a title for a night or a week is better than buying a title at £12-£15.
The alternative is SKY & you wont get much change out of £40 per month & thats tied to a 12 month contract..not really an option for a fixed income household.
As for the gap between US & UK I'll give you there are now a few titles that can be upto 6 months behind ..but the major titles are within days & weeks....besides I do see the difference between a NTSC Reg 1 Disc & PAL reg 2 ..give me Reg 2 all the time...& yes I know a US version is sometimes less censored.
I love movies thats why I own a store & I can kinda see where your batting but having some thieving ponce downloading lets say Bridget Jones 2 & then coping 10 copies & going round pubs & offices & selling them at a fiver IS THEFT...for every one of those discs could cost a rental store 5 times the cost!!!
I for one do not love the way studios operate but can see that this kind of justification is not right..as I said in earlier posts would you work for free??..No of course you would not & you would not have the disposable income you have at this time.
So think about the consequences of distributing the movie you have downloaded...thats all I would say,as you said regarding IRobot & I would not blame you.

 

[Trem]

To Falcon -

I have never claimed that anyone on here is wrong. You clearly aren't in the optician line of work. I have read your posts, does it seem like I didn't.

I mentioned my line of work because....well.....this is to do with it.

I asked a question of you and you weighed up that it was childish, yes, childish to ask a question......yes.

I know fuck all, whether I own a video shop or not I have never claimed to know much about anything. But I will tell you what I do know about, my business...thats right...my business, you know, the one that I own....I know it quite well.

You keep bleating on about your job, well add some kudos to your posts and say what it is.

Or is it so special that you just can't tell us commoners?

You mentioned your pay twice without any call for you to.

I await the embarrasment you are going to cause me when you reveal your line of work.

 

[nath]

some thieving ponce downloading lets say Bridget Jones 2 & then coping 10 copies & going round pubs & offices & selling them at a fiver IS THEFT...for every one of those discs could cost a rental store 5 times the cost!!!

I don't recall anyone justifying distributing pirated movies - that's certainly where I draw the line at least. I know I'm not going to spend the money on that DVD so the industry has lost nothing, and I'm not making anyone else follow suit.

Oh and before anyone says anything, I don't use P2P software to download, so I'm not sharing stuff in that respect either.

 

[Trem]

I respect you Nath, Tom, Cyfr and the rest of the general regulars...I would go as far to say that Nath and Tom are pretty fucking sexy. You are both intelligent people who don't resort to insults when in a discussion about something this touchy. But OMG Falcon FUCK OFF!!

 

[Brynn]

There are no decent family owned video rental places by me. There is the garage down the road and the Spar that do video's. For some reason i dont rent video's, i never really have, my girlfriend is always renting them. Her family always rent about 2 films a week and watch them.
I think its just because i dont really think "hurm - today i will rent blah", i usually just sit on the sofa and put the tv on and see if there is a decent film on. Dont really know why this is - i think it could be becuase of the way i have been brought up.

I dont download any stuff now, ever since i got a scary pop-up which was easily made using java script that pretty much scared the bejesus out of me. Currently i am dying to buy the zeutons album, the goldie lookin chain album, a few dvd's and some games. But i just dont have the cash just no, so i would just rather wait.

I think about it - as if my income was dependant on films being sold and people were pirating i would be really pissed off. Its just like someone using your services but your not getting payed for it.

Dont really know if this is helping the debate, just thought i would throw my 0.02 dollar's worth

 

[Trem]

I totally see your point Brynn. I never rented films, I just couldn't handle the commitment of returning them. I just couldn't be arsed. But my girlfriend always rented, I guess females are just more reliable.

I get so infuriated when people call me childish though. I am racking my brains to try and see what I said was childish in my post.

My mortgage, sons upbringing and possibly my relationship DO depend on my business and my business is renting films.

I have said before that I know I have a limited time left in this trade, but I aren't leaving without a fight.

If its childish to fight for my livelihood then so be it.

 

[AcesHigh]

Respect

Well good to have you onside Nath,I understand not every area in the UK has a good independant store but where you have I would encourge you use it,& I would dare to say you will find TRUE customer service.
One other point I would like to say is don't be confused by the signals that are being put out by the studios..as I said in an earlier post I love movies but I have to conceed the quality of film this past 12 months has been pretty dire & also the quality of TV shows has been much much better.Maybe something to do with movies concentrating TOO much on child friendly subjects.
However these films have been pirated to death because of 'pester power' of the kids..already studios are getting ready to roll out 'Shrek 2' & 'Harry Potter 3' at a lower price point for February..thats for those of you wanting to buy for home use only..as for the humble rental store they will still be paying £28 + VAT per copy...thats called RENTAL RIGHTS Directive...something that is far far more dangerous than piracy to the stand alone stores out there.
So the argument of renting may not be an issue much longer..put simply you will NOT be able to rent...its happening now..you will NOT find a single store renting 'Return of the King Directors Cut' anywhere in the UK.
So if you do WANT THE RIGHT TO RENT make some noise...NOW

 

[Brynn]

I have said before that I know I have a limited time left in this trade, but I aren't leaving without a fight.

retiring are we?


Trem if you post to aberdeen i will rent - but only the brown paper-bag sorta films

if you catch my drift

do you rent porn films out?

 

[Trem]

*ahem* me sir......never!! *ahem*

We are thinking of moving to Scotland tbh luv. You will have to fight Leggy for me though

 

[Brynn]

Where in scotland?

sorry leggy but dundee is a shithole

 

[Trem]

I absolutely loved the far North, the roads there are how roads should be for driving.

It is something me and Samm are thinking of at the minute, its just the language barrier that is putting us off at the minute

 

[ECA]

I feel that I have something worthwhile to add to this discussion that doesn't seem to have been touched on.

Firstly the internet like the cassette and the cd has been blamed for "the death of the music industry" and dvd/internet have been blamed for a widespread increase in movie and music piracy, and to an extent both are true.

The download market is essentially being ignored, sure I can download music, but its £1 a track, thats still a lot of money. If I want an album that can cost more than going to the shop, what I _WANT_ to do, is pay the artist a fair amount of money for their work and effort, and only the artist, the artist should be paying the promoters, not me. I would have no objection paying £20 for the back catalogue and future catalogue of an artist, thats more than they'll get from me buying 10 of their albums in the shops, and costs me FAR less. I get to listen to their music, they get more money, where is the problem? the problem is that the middlemen are cut out, and of course, especially in the case of the retail distributor, they will be left unhappy with the situation.

There are other parties involved of course, not least being the gutter rags..sorry I mean the tabloid press, and the glossy mags, who of course would lose their easy front pages from the "whatevers hot" stable on drunken nights out and the kiss and tell crap. ( just a minor diversion, back on topic ).

The internet provides the perfect means to enable a system with reduced overheads and to reduce the prescence of distributary chains, the problem is the attitude of the MPAA and the RIAA whose members often profit from all sides of the chain, and they see themselves cut out in the future, of course the movie industry is a little different, a movie can costs tens of millions just to make let alone distribute.

What the labels have to do is build stables of artists from particular genres so a consumer with a taste in a band can see "hmm this label has xxx, I'll check out their other artists", what currently happens to acts that get long airplay is very different as I'm sure anyone in the industry can tell you.
There are some smaller labels that have already built themselves around quality and have started to distribute online, which will hopefully increase and extend to the majors.

What currently happens is very similar - only its not legal; particularly on filesharing networks is you find someone with similar musical taste, get everything they dont have and listen to it, and of course that is piracy.
This is my position:

Big business has to embrace downloading, and has to take a smaller cut of the profit for the music industry to thrive on talent and innovation, sadly this isnt the case, it just will never happen, your going to see more "here today, gone tomorrow" bands, and more movies where the plots are decided by focus groups ( coming out of hollywood anyway ). The negative outcome of this is that the small shop owners ( such as trem ) get the shaft, however you can't just close your eyes, shout that downloading is bad and causes piracy, and try and use lawyers to shut down internet distribution.

I think a market for physical storage and sale for media will always exist, but the number of players in the market is going to be vastly reduced, its already the case that most computers sold can readily play high quality video, have the capacity the availability, give it 10 years and I think only a very small number of "big players" will be left in the game/music/movie rental market, let alone the retail market, if you want a good example of whats going to be the norm take a look at steam.

Polemic over, I hope my post doesnt get lost in the mass of the thread :-]

 

[Trem]

Excellent, coherent post ECA. I see your point and agree with a lot of it.

 

[Falcon]

But OMG Falcon FUCK OFF!!

Hit a nerve did I? Thanks for acknowledging that you know deep down I'm right. If you think my original post didn't have valid points it only demonstrates how blind you really are to the reality of piracy and why it's effecting your business if it really is at all.

Look at why people are pirating over the net (hint: convenience, cost) and you maybe able to save your business that's running on an obsolete business model, ignore the truth and keep on just blaming your failure entirely on piracy and you'll just keep going further and further downhill. Much like the music industry in fact, who had to wait a few years for a technology company (Apple) to give them a wake up call and show them how things should be done nowadays (iTunes).

Oh, and as you asked about my job, I work with coordination of video and cutscenes for computer games, which nowadays involves quite a bit of interaction with the movie industry. I was in California for the 2004 game developers conference followed by a trip down to LA on business about a certain RTS game which I can't however name due to NDA. Certainly that gives me a lot more inside knowledge of the entertainment industry as a whole than just some 'indie' video shop guy.

 

[Trem]

It gives you absolutely no knowledge of MY business though does it?

Well all I can say is my face is burning with embarassment after finding out what you do for a living. I don't know how I will ever show my face on these boards again. Man do I feel like an idiot now.

You so win, you rock. I would go as far to say that on the 25th of this month I will be celebrating Falcon day....you are clearly Jesus.

 

[glasseye]

I dont know what planet some of you people are on but like Trem I,m in the video business and would like you to tell me where I can go to see a film in a cinema for the price of an average rental of £3.50.
Also before you start slagging indie dealers like us off just remember that 25 years ago the price of video rental was £1.00 per night. Now,apart from the robbing barstards at Blockbuster it has only increased £2.50 in 25 years. What more do you want. The day will come when all of us are gone and then you will only be left with the cinema, Sky, or the big chains like Blockbuster then see the prices rise like hell. You lot are digging your own rental hole when you by or download pirate material.

 

[FuzzyLogic]

I pay £11.47 to tescodvdrental.com per month and hire on average 8 to 10 movies in that period. As far as i'm concerned that's a good deal and with no piracy involved whatsoever.

It's not just the pirates that are having such an effect on the ma & pa video stores. It's the superstores too

 

[Falcon]

I dont know what planet some of you people are on but like Trem I,m in the video business and would like you to tell me where I can go to see a film in a cinema for the price of an average rental of £3.50.
Also before you start slagging indie dealers like us off just remember that 25 years ago the price of video rental was £1.00 per night. Now,apart from the robbing barstards at Blockbuster it has only increased £2.50 in 25 years. What more do you want. The day will come when all of us are gone and then you will only be left with the cinema, Sky, or the big chains like Blockbuster then see the prices rise like hell. You lot are digging your own rental hole when you by or download pirate material.

Todays world is one of instant entertainment, people nowadays are impatient and/or lazy, they don't want to walk to the video shop, they want to download and watch it not. it doesn't just effect your industry, it effects many industries, it's the modern ethic people follow that's the real cause of the damage to industries like yours, the same goes for things like magazines, many magazine areas are losing out nowadays because the same material and more can be found free on the net. Piracy has always been around, it probably always will be, it has increased sure, but it hasn't increased anywhere near enough to make such a large impact as to destroy things like the video rental industry single handedly. As I've kind of hinted on already also, many people don't just pirate films to get them free - they often pirate them because it's a hell of a lot more convenient too which reminds me of a time a friend was going to register CuteFTP or Getright (Can't remember exactly now) and got so fed up with the annoying registration process it was just far easier and much more time consuming than him just finding a crack.

I'll be the first to admit I'm one of these people who doesn't like wasting time, I much prefer to be able to get things without wasting time going to the shops, I'll always buy online if the option is there and I know I'm one of millions in that respect. It's harsh and it's typical of modern society and I don't think it's anything that's going to change or go away any time soon. That's why the music industry, movie industry, magazine and book industry need to embrace the internet to augment their current business models as it's not going to go away, it's going to become more prominent and only hurt them more the longer they ignore it or try and fight it.

 

[Cyfr]

glasseye, It costs me £4 to go to the cinema, I can see the film with great quality speakers, HUGE screen and the other bonuses of the cinema, for 50p more.. which do you think i'm going to go to?

 

[Tilda]

Secondly £ 3 for a movie thats going to entertain you for at least 2 Hrs compare that to a Big Mac meal which will cost you £3.79 & last 5 mins tops!!

I'd just like to interject,
For ~£6 you get a whole month of entertainment in your choice of only MMORPG!
Compared to that, even movies are a rip off.

 

[Tom]

Yes, but films stimulate the senses. MMORPGs only stimulate the anal muscles.

 

[breezy]

glasseye, It costs me £4 to go to the cinema, I can see the film with great quality speakers, HUGE screen and the other bonuses of the cinema, for 50p more.. which do you think i'm going to go to?

Yeah £4 for you but try and imagine yourself with a wife and 3 or 4 sprogs:- thats £20 before munchies etc. makes that £3 seem better doesn,t it?
I am ,just, a rental store owner too, won't be able to say that after Christmas.I don't think people downloading in their own homes is the greatest threat(most of the ones who do that I'm aware of don't seem to have friends to pass them on to) its the 3 for £5 off car boots and markets that are the problemand if you had heard someone from FACT as I have you would know most of these have their roots in the same mucky swamp as child porn and terrorism(not you or your uncle or him down the road)
I might have been able to cope with this if I didn't have to pay £40 for a RENTAL copy of a film on the same day YOU can buy it from ASDA<TESCO etc for £12.
I think I'm right in saying that I am the last indie in and around my quite large Midlands town so Blocky's gonna be extra busy or my ex-customers better start extending their shelves for all the films they are gonna have to buy Warner Bros boss said nearly a year ago he wanted to see dvd buying an impulse thing like a magazine maybe we'll have dvd recycling banks like we do now for papers and mags.
By the way I am very pissed off with the fuckwits(sure does trem ) at my 13 year old sons school who showed all his class a 15 rated film as a Christmas treat still I should be grateful it was a film that has been released this time

 

[Tom]

Trem you utter slag. Getting all your video shop mates over here to start a war!

 

[ECA]

if you had heard someone from FACT as I have you would know most of these have their roots in the same mucky swamp as child porn and terrorism

Please dont peddle this complete utter bullshit.
This is just something easy to label with no real factual basis.

 

[Trem]

Trem you utter slag. Getting all your video shop mates over here to start a war!

I merely linked this on the delaers forum. Initially for the news story.

Jesus Tommeh you should thank me, this is your most popular thread for years